When should AI subordinates use the "bounding overwatch" movement

[Bouben 3]

@stun, in the SF, our team leader almost never have to tell us to do anything. Everything's in the drills. We usually go into bounding overwatch when contact is imminent. When assaulting in built up areas or when approaching our target area. In fact, our team leader don't even have to tell us to do it, its really a mood thing. We get into that mood when we know danger is imminent and from the way our team leader starts getting into more cover, behaving more cautiously and talking lesser. That's why we train together all the time as a team so that all of these coordination becomes automatic.

I guess this could translate into "Danger" in the game as the team leader seems to shout out "Get Ready For Contact" when that order is given. Yes, we would go into bounding overwatch when contact is imminent, so that would fit in nicely. Apart from that, the fact remains that bounding overwatch in ArmA2 is BROKEN. We bound from cover to cover, not stop halfway between covers for nothing.

Those who voted for "Take Cover", I really don't understand why. When ordered to "Take Cover", units really find a safe place and dig in. This is usually preparation for a defensive, dug in, fighting where you don't expect to move around much or at all.

When units come under surprise fire, all behavior should default automatically to DANGER and then let the bounding overwatch in the DANGER mode take over. So, the conclusion is, this bounding overwatch, if FIXED (COVER to COVER, no CROUCH WALK!), should just belong in the DANGER mode.

great points! I wish BIS would do it like that.

[bhaz 0]

As an addition, with the latest beta (61974) I was trying to evac an AI squad that was under fire, all automatically switched to combat mode and took over 5 minutes to board the vehicle.

Suggestion? Embark order = forced aware when less that 15 metres from the vehicle.

[Mysteryman5150 10]

No matter when the AI goes into bounding overwatch or combat mode, they need to respond to the squad/team leader when told to return to formation or when given any other order. Failure to do so would be rank insubordination and should not exist in a mil-sim game. Like bhaz said above...

all automatically switched to combat mode and took over 5 minutes to board the vehicle.

... That should never happen. The AI needs to respond to the commands given by the leader, that is what makes the military function.

Alot of people play this game in SP mode and it is very difficult with the AI being unresponsive at times.

That's my nickles worth of knowledge;)

Edited February 25, 2010 by Mysteryman5150

[Wolfrug 0]

As an addition, with the latest beta (61974) I was trying to evac an AI squad that was under fire, all automatically switched to combat mode and took over 5 minutes to board the vehicle.

Suggestion? Embark order = forced aware when less that 15 metres from the vehicle.

That is annoying, but I think there're been suggestions elsewhere for a "haul ass" command which would cover this as well. Remember that the AI uses the exact same commands as the player, but the AI does not have the same situational awareness as the player, and never will. If the 'get in' command did indeed do that (force the AI to move it), then we'd probably be filling threads like this with complaints over why the damned AI gets up and runs to their certain deaths as soon as they're ordered to board something :) This would be solved, BY THE PLAYER, by simply making sure the Mount command is given in staggers (one/two at a time, the rest covering) or for instance waiting until the perfect moment. The AI, however, can't do this - the AI squad leader will give the command the moment the game commands him to, no matter the situation.

Ahem. But yes. "Haul ass" would still be useful...

Regards,

Wolfrug

[tj72 0]

I guess that people could complain (laughing out loud) that the AI are somehow too responsive but that would not be a reasonable or legitimate complaint to make. Especially in the face of the annoyances with the faulty 1.05 AI superglue shoes they have now.

Having the AI stick where they are just because they know about enemies in the area is alot worse then a human squad leader who doesnt know how to order the group around properly. Its the squad leaders job to decide if its safe to move or not.

When I order my AI to do something I want them to react quickly. If they are scared or unskilled or wounded, THEN maybe they might freeze up.

If they died because I ordered them across the line of fire then its my fault not the AI or BIS's. If they are well trained and competent soldiers then they should follow orders.

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

i like to see when i give them order to copy my stance they actualy "copy" my stance

so they wont give away our position.

when i give order to hold fire they actualy holding fire, like himmelsfeuer says.

cause sometimes i like to be able to let my enemy pass my position, now my team m8 opens fire any way and gives away our position....

and when i got shot and ask for medic (when im not in line of fire) they actualy give me first aid, while the rest of the team provides cover....

oow also i like to see my team m8's a little more responsive while being shot at

[Drumheller 19]

The "When the enemy is shooting at us" option could potentially be bad, because sometimes you specifically want your guys to move fast with no regard to their safety for various reasons. The top two I can think of is incoming arty or bombing run and when you're trying to do a fullscale retreat.

and when i got shot and ask for medic (when im not in line of fire) they actualy give me first aid, while the rest of the team provides cover....

God yes this would be nice.

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

yes i figured didnt realy understand bounding overwatch thats why i clarified my overal issues with current AI

and i responded on a reaction from page one, after i posted i figured there where allready 5 pages...pfffff

[Heatseeker 0]

Is there a way to shutdown this bounding overwatch?

The a.i. is much better without it.

[Scrub 0]

It seems the continuous enemy fire gets medics to forget about you, I usually keep shouting to remind them. Seems to work pretty well. Would be nice if I didn't have to.

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

i think when u look at the "realism" factor, in real life i assume with a few bullits in your stomach u are realy lucky to shout medic!!! once.... and cross fingers he actualy get to u ASAP.

i can imagine he has to overlook the situation bevore he gets to u.

he has to take caution to not get shot himself, but his job is actualy safe your ass.

the rest have to open fire and take the attention of the opfor while u receive first aid

right now the medic keeps engaging untill the last nearby enemy is killed

[KingN 249]

I just finished playing a mission I failed because my AI subordinates didn't board an extraction vehicle 10-15 meters away because enemies was present nearby in a forest. My subordinates just used this combat movement by moving only few meters at a time and then scan the surroundings as if we weren't in a hurry. I took 3 minutes to get 3 of my 6 men aboard until the vehicle was knocked out by an rpg. Needless to say, I was ranting a bit at the AI. :rolleyes: Anyway, my two cents for this thread:

• When I order "return to formation" my AI subordinates' first priority must be returning to formation as fast as possible.
  
• When I change the behaviour to "aware" and order them to do something (like board a vehicle) my subordinates should stop hiding in bushes and scanning the surroundings and do what I tell them to. Alternatively there could be an order for them to hurry up and get moving.
  
• Sometimes the auto-combat mode is a good feature for saving few seconds from manually telling them to go in combat mode. But most of the time it prevents/slows down the AI from doing what they are supposed to do for no proper reason.
  

I hope you BIS could do something about this.:o

[jakerod 254]

when i give order to hold fire they actualy holding fire, like himmelsfeuer says.

cause sometimes i like to be able to let my enemy pass my position, now my team m8 opens fire any way and gives away our position....

Your man did hold fire. He held fire until he was spotted by an enemy soldier and decided that "Hm.. that guy saw me maybe I should kill him before he shoots me." To the player this isn't apparent but to the AI they know if they were spotted or not. He chose to shoot because he knew he had been seen and wanted to kill the other guy before he got shot.

In Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis and Resistance they held fire no matter what. A lot of people complained about this because your men would just sit there and let themselves die 1 by 1 even if the enemy was right on top of them. They changed it to the present system so that the AI would have some sort of self-preservation. They wouldn't just let themselves be hacked apart by a single guy walking up to each one of them at point blank and shooting them.

Perhaps the guy should call out SPOTTED! or something as he fires but they will hold fire until they are detected by the enemy.

All information found in this post was written according to what my present knowledge actually is. I take no responsibility if any of it is false. I believe all of it to be true at the moment of writing.

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

i cant say your wrong... its comon sense to shoot first when u suspect being detected.

think its me misunderstanding the several commands.:)

[cyclone83 6]

Personally I hate it when I'm in combat action / under fire to give my team mates orders how to behave. Mostly me and / or my team mates get killed at those times. The AI should be clever enough to take cover when getting under fire and run with me when I start to. When enemies are descried, my mates shall change behavior to combat automatically, until I order 'em something else.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cyclone83

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

i think it should be when moving while under attack 3 out of six need to move and cover so the other 3 can move in front of u and cover u, untill u are there where your going,

even when under fire so u can get out of the hot zone and maybe counter the attack.

right now the AI wil dig in and return fire, not realy responding to any given command.

[metalcraze 290]

This should only happen when I order them to - just like in OFP and ArmA. Sometimes you just need to run away from combat especially when you control a small team and have too much to handle coming it you. But instead they chose to die in a silly way when under fire or seeing an enemy.

[Callaghan 1]

I thought it was implemented correctly, I assume that 90% of people simply don't know how to command the AI correctly, instead of making major changes to a system so many people are probably used to, why not add a tutorial mission that covers all aspects of AI command. Perhaps I assume incorrectly, but the AI should only use bounding overwatch when in Danger or Stealth modes. Perhaps a whole new command set should be added to control speed as in the editor, where slow would signify bounding in both stealth and danger, normal would use bounding only in stealth and fast would remove bounding altogether but they would still use cover and prone as normal in those modes.

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

its just when a marine gets the order to move they move, even when under attack.

ingame when i order to move they stay put ignoring my command.

when i keep moving im taking a risk to be overwhelmed by the enemy without my team supporting me.

when i stay we get surrounded by the enemy,

but my team wont listen to my orders.

so i cant attack and reposition, cause they keep engaging...

[MrXToTheN 10]

its just when a marine gets the order to move they move, even when under attack.

ingame when i order to move they stay put ignoring my command.

when i keep moving im taking a risk to be overwhelmed by the enemy without my team supporting me.

when i stay we get surrounded by the enemy,

but my team wont listen to my orders.

so i cant attack and reposition, cause they keep engaging...

that's my problem too. The best in my eyes would be to only let them do bounding overwatch on danger mode or to make an addtional command for it.

[nomdeplume 0]

Maybe it would be possible for the AI to know where they're "supposed" to be? Then they can leg it if they find themselves somewhere else. For most cases, they're supposed to be in formation, so once the squad leader gets far enough away, they'll make it their life's goal to catch up to them.

Alternatively, they could base their "supposed to be" location off of whoever they're next to in the formation, so if you move off, the guys who are meant to be near you will notice and start moving first, then the guys next to them will decide they're too far away from their position and start moving, and so on. This could effectively mimic a bounding overwatch type of movement, especially if the leader moves in bounds.

When ordered to get in a vehicle or heal someone or move somewhere, the location of their target would become their "supposed to be" location and they'll hustle to get there.

But I think there still needs to be a way to determine when you want them to move cautiously and when not, and this needs to be independent of whether they've detected enemies.

Assuming the "automatic danger mode" is in fact tracked separately to a leader-ordered "danger" mode, then that shouldn't be a problem: if an AI is supposed to be somewhere else, it'll ignore its automatic danger mode and run straight there, then resume "danger" behaviour once it's where it's meant to be. If it's been explicitly ordered into danger mode, it'll use bounding overwatch/hide under the bushes movement.

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

simply make shure bounding overwatch is working properly

the direction of attack shouldnt make a difference they should do bounding overwatch when attacked from any direction.

i agree with "some kind of guy" abouth determining the bounding speed.

depends on the situation maybe u want to engage or retreat, do u want to keep the element of suprice and go slow? or overwhelm the enemy and go in fast.

maybe u need to get out of the hot zone, it realy depends on the situation.

but we never leave a fallen soldier behind, and we shure wont stay to be cannonfodder..

[4 IN 1 0]

I think it is a matter of AI fail most of the time to follow the order player gave them

[DeZzErX 0]

It would be nice if you could put your AI subordinates into 3 'mindsets'.

For instance "Agressive", "Defensive" and "Break Contact"(couldn't come up with a better one).

When they are in

- Agressive mode and you order danger or get shot at they use bounding overwatch and advance.

- Defensive mode and you order danger or get shot at look for the nearest cover and hold their ground.

- Break contact mode and you order danger or get shot at the use a reverse bounding overwatch and retreat.

Ofcourse any command given by the player (to board a vehicle for instance) should overwrite their behaviour.

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

when boarding vehicles solution would be first go's to vehicle and covers, second person who's moving towards the vehicle also piks an angle to provide cover and so on untill the last one can enter the vehicle safely so the rest can get in one at a time untill every one has boarded