Grass layer not the best solution?

[dogz 10]

so from that video what you guys are unhappy with is the fact that instead of a visual layer covering the Ai target, they are actually below and behind the ground and therefore you can only hit any exposed parts?

Does this mean the "other" style of grass layer could be penetrated with rounds?

[maddogx 13]

so from that video what you guys are unhappy with is the fact that instead of a visual layer covering the Ai target, they are actually below and behind the ground and therefore you can only hit any exposed parts?

That's not quite right.

They aren't actually sinking into the ground, just getting drawn lower. The problem is that their geometry is still in the same place it was before, so the soldier will appear to be lower than he actually is. Basically, in order to hit the head, you have to aim at the air above where you see the head - because that's where it really is.

[dogz 10]

@MadDogX... ok I understand that now, the vid only shows the last shot is perhaps hitting above and I cant play A2 to test it.

It is really bad implementation of the "grass layer" fix if the invisible body model can still take hits if aim is above visible model....

I hope you guys are wrong or that it gets improved soon.

[SwiftyBoy 0]

Hmm, tricky one this. Noticed it in earnest last night playing a quick SP mission near the dam - and I've got to say, now that I've noticed it, it's somewhat breaking the immersion...

The only way I could even begin to think that BIS could tackle this is for the engine to generate occluding grass objects dynamically in the small part of the world you're currently fighting in... but given the problem of long range magnification etc, I'm not sure that'd work either. And then there's possible effect on the frame rates... oh the humanity etc.

[maturin 12]

So we could hit the lowered image but actually be shooting dirt? That's terrible. I hope they change it to a transparency system later on. Just make the legs disappear.

[rübe 127]

I'm not really happy either with the current solution. IMHO it's just wrong to simply sink units into the ground. Besides the mentioned problems, it looks like bumpy ofp:resistance terrain is back and not like grass/foliage (just that old bumby resistance terrain was really fine, whereas this "grass"-layer just pops in/get's applied to the single units.. quite terrible if you ask me).

It just doesn't work. IMHO this approach is doomed to be halfassed and pretty useless/ineffective since it's still easy to spot such units, unless they are completely burried into the ground, haha. (plus new awkwardness like mentioned).

I wouldn't elaborate this "solution" (though others probably might not agree with me). Instead I'd look for a better solution or live with things as they are. I hope they look rather into the direction of actually spawning very low-cost grass at distance.

[Maddmatt 1]

Maybe they will just lower the fire LOD to compensate...

Would be better if some kind of grass shader could be applied to distant units, where the colour of the terrain would be layered onto the lower part of them that should be obscured by grass. Don't know how hard that is to implement, and if BIS would be happy to throw away the current system and start again :lookaround:

[paajtor 10]

Edit: a video showing what I'm talking about is here:

It's a subtle effect, which took me a while to start noticing. Now I can't un-notice it.

If the video isn't clear enough or you just can't be bothered, here's the final round fired in the video:

Thank you for that! Now I get an idea, about the current status of this.

The original idea is good, but the aiming needs to be fixed.

And still I gotta say, that the sinking-in looks odd...in particular, when viewed through a sniper-scope.

And that's imo the view that counts most, in this case!

Maybe it's an idea, to make the units (AI or human) also become a bit transparant, when they go prone?

[KeyCat 131]

The original idea is good, but the aiming needs to be fixed.

+1

Nice catch, haven't had much time playing and I agree this need to be fixed before final.

/KC

[b00n 10]

That's not quite right.

They aren't actually sinking into the ground, just getting drawn lower. The problem is that their geometry is still in the same place it was before, so the soldier will appear to be lower than he actually is. Basically, in order to hit the head, you have to aim at the air above where you see the head - because that's where it really is.

If the model is simply drawn lower than the actual bounding geometry, might that explain why the AI is still able to spot and kill prone players far too easily? I imagine the AI uses the bounding geometry for detection and in that regard it seems the grass layer hasn't changed anything.

Regarding the feasibility/infeasibility of rendering 'real' grass discussed earlier in this thread: there is certainly no reason why such high quality rendering couldn't be done while in zoomed views, where there is a narrow viewing frustrum. The problem, as correctly stated, is that prone players would still be visible at distance while the grass is not rendered. The way to reconcile this seems pretty simple to me; just don't render players who are prone in grass at long distance. After all we're going for realism with these changes aren't we? You're never going to spot someone lying in foot-high (or higher) grass, barely moving or not moving at all, a couple of hundred metres away with the naked eye. You can still render muzzleflashes etc. which give their position away, and then the enemy would use their scopes/binoculars to locate and engage the hidden target.

Thoughts?

[maddogx 13]

If the model is simply drawn lower than the actual bounding geometry, might that explain why the AI is still able to spot and kill prone players far too easily? I imagine the AI uses the bounding geometry for detection and in that regard it seems the grass layer hasn't changed anything.

I can't be sure, but I'm assuming (and hoping) the AI visibility check works differently - or at least is supposed to work differently - than lowering the view geometry. There are some far more nifty ways to do it than that.

[KeyCat 131]

Anyone tried the latest build 60718 to see if this issue was looked into (nothing mentioned in the log tho)?

/KC

[alef 0]

...

Added to CIT. Thank you for the image.

[kuIoodporny 45]

There was suggestion of having grass raised when zoomed in. I thought reverse; what if we relate the grass effect not only to distance, but also linearly to field of view?

The reasons are simple:

- the better zoom, the lesser FOV.

- the lesser FoV, the lesser visible area can be "revealed" to our eyes at time.

- the better zoom, the more details we can see.

This would make "sniper rifles", "optical devices" and especially "precision shooting" more meaningful again.

I have made small ticket about this on CIT.

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/18841

==

For picture worth 1000 words:

Edited April 28, 2011 by zGuba

[liquidpinky 11]

Grass shouldn't move whether zoomed in or out.

If I am lying in 1 foot of grass, then whether you are looking at me from 1 mile away or stood next to me, I am still lying in 1 foot of grass.

[runforrest 10]

i just discovered this: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/8285

i never noticed it before,i always thought im a bad sniper/shooter, until the last days i dug through sniper manuals and stuff and really focused on sniping on distance with accurate shots.

tbh this issue makes arma for me unplayable, now that i noticed it, i see it all the time

in this so called "simulation" everytime when a target is on grass the visual model is somewhere else than the hitbox. even on 300m its impossible to hit accurate headshots, in fact on 300m its a difference off 1 mildot!! ARE U F... SERIOUS?

i wish i have never started trying accurate sniping in arma and discovered this, it breaks the game for me :(

[maturin 12]

You shouldn't be aiming for headshots anyways.

I don't think this (rather unfortunate) system impairs my accuracy.

[Zipper5 74]

Snipers being wrongly "calibrated"...

... Breaks the game for you.

All you do is snipe?

[runforrest 10]

300m distance is not really sniping, is it?

and its not about calibration.

do the test urself in the editor, place urself on utes airfield exactly 300m away from 2 AI units. place one unit at the concrete of the runway, the other 2m away standing on the the grass. take a m24(zeroed at 300m by default), aim 1 mildot above the head of the unit standing on concrete > u will miss, as it should be. reload the mission and do the same shot on the unit standing on the grass and u will get a perfect headshot, although u aimed 1 mildot above. SIMULATION MY A..

if the grass clutter is such a problem i would prefer having none at all - at least it works and is consistant vs AI AND in PvP

im really upset about this, its a NOGO that the hitboxes r not there where they should be and i hope this will be changed or arma is unfortunately dead for me

[Defunkt 431]

I've never understood why the actual clutter can't be rendered when scoped in, you're scoped in, it doesn't have to be rendered nearby just at the distance you're looking at and as your FOV is narrower (and the reticle cuts out even more of it) surely there's going to be less than usual.

[kuIoodporny 45]

Grass shouldn't move whether zoomed in or out.

If I am lying in 1 foot of grass, then whether you are looking at me from 1 mile away or stood next to me, I am still lying in 1 foot of grass.

Currently it's not grass, it's refraction. :mad:

You seem not to understand my point in 100%: I'm talking about very high magnification levels, which would then make no difference if You're half hidden in grass or not - you're sitting ducks then anyway. When somebody spots you directly with 10-20x magnification level below 1000 meters, Your concealment is worth as much as your skin and suit camo.

Besides, I wonder if it's possible to render the small foliage directly in such condition. Following Defunkt:

I've never understood why the actual clutter can't be rendered when scoped in, you're scoped in, it doesn't have to be rendered nearby just at the distance you're looking at and as your FOV is narrower (and the reticle cuts out even more of it) surely there's going to be less than usual.

Guess that there are technical implications beside that, but who knows...

Snipers being wrongly "calibrated"...

... Breaks the game for you.

All you do is snipe?

I don't snipe because sniping is apparently broken ;)

Edited April 30, 2011 by zGuba

[=kct=blackmamba 44]

i snipe allot in multiplayer games i love it..

using the M107 or specialy the AS50 first to kill the artillary dudes, one shot trough the armour plating to kill the operator, making headshot from atleast 1200/1600 mtrs distance without a problem.

hell ill shoot a turned out tank commander from that distance only thing is visible is his head. just never forget to bring a range finder.

[kuIoodporny 45]

OK, but that's not dismounted infantry shooting which is "special".

[runforrest 10]

exactly

do my described test in the editor, it proofs that this concept of "fixing" or "improving" the problem with the grass clutter makes this game a bad joke, especially when theres so much focus on "realism" or "simulation"

[Zipper5 74]

Jesus, a flaw such as this (which I've honestly not noticed until you pointed it out, and I've been playing Arma 2 since release) does not stop this from game from being realistic nor a simulator.

Have you reported this to the CIT? If not, go do so. If you have, good, all you have to do is wait for it to be fixed (if it can be).