Grass layer not the best solution?

[maturin 12]

I'm sure you mean beta-patch, correct?

Of course.

[shataan 1]

"Until PC's are powerful enough to render grass all over the whole island this will have to do."

I call b/s on this. No offence intended. Ya don`t need to render grass all over the whole island. I still don`t get how most peeps here who agree with you believe this.

Yet you see all the awesome stuff plastered to our screens in the 1st pov, and think nothing of it.

All they gotta do is code the grass we see inscope views. Only in the scope view. Just cause they haven`t done this doesn`t mean it can`t be done at all. It just means no ones done it, and it is just easier to do the ol grass layer crap. This is the worst lamest and laziest way to bandaid the real issue ever. When Nova did it to Joint Ops, and nerfed the sniper class, I wanted to line up the whole dev team and kick em in the nads for that.

We had voxel grass in DF 2 that did it best on PII 350s for Gods sakes.

Yet everyone or at least many still feel that our rigs these days can`t handle grass done right? Think about it for awhile.

[maturin 12]

"

All they gotta do is code the grass we see inscope views. Only in the scope view. Just cause they haven`t done this doesn`t mean it can`t be done at all. It just means no ones done it, and it is just easier to do the ol grass layer crap.

Has it ever been done? Just because you are in a scope does not mean that you can't see too much area and range of LoD to render. And that doesn't fix the problem because the unzoomed naked eye can pick out gillie suits easily.

[Maddmatt 1]

And that doesn't fix the problem because the unzoomed naked eye can pick out gillie suits easily.

Exacly. Grass when zoomed (well obviously restricting it to scope view is a bit... limited) doesn't solve the gameplay issue of distant units not being hidden at a distance because you wont always be zoomed close enough to that spot for the grass to cover them.

Grass when zooming would be a good visual improvement and I'd love to see it added to the game, but it doesn't address the gameplay issue like the grass layer system does.

[nicolasroger 11]

what about a grass layer with a transparency map. (it is called an alpha map i think)

a good solution would be to use a taller grass layer fully hiding you at the bottom and fully transparent at the top with a linear transparency gradient in the middle.

any modder know where to find that grass layer so we can simply try it ourself?

[Maddmatt 1]

any modder know where to find that grass layer so we can simply try it ourself?

I don't believe there is any 'layer'. The units are just sunk into the ground where there is grass. Notice that it only affects infantry.

Rendering an actual layer above the ground can harm visuals and performance, like the one in ArmA1 did. At least the system now in ArmA 2 doesn't seem to have any negative effects.

[Fireball 16]

After testing build 60091 for a couple of hours yesterday I can say the "grass layer" is indeed affecting the AI. Now snipers in ghillie suits + tall grass starts to make sense, if you stay prone in tall grass at ~250+ m distance they will have very hard time locating you even if you shot at them. I'm sure it may still need some tweaking to some of the CFG-values to be perfected but it sure is a nice step forward IMHO!

We also did some testing yesterday and came up with that:

Sorry for the little audio desync, but tell me what you think. It's not a ghilie suit and it's also around 250m distance, but it's in the shadow and at the little wood. Potentially the issue is that shadows make you feel too safe, when they are in fact not observed/applied to detection rating.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Fireball

[KeyCat 131]

Edit: I downloaded the latest patch last night and there is no evidence of any grass layer. I've tested it with friends and enemies, always prone, in areas where the grass should cover at least half of their body. Nothing.

Sure you started the beta patch with correct shortcut!? You can verify version number on main screen, it should read 1.04.60141 for current beta.

Sorry for the little audio desync, but tell me what you think. It's not a ghilie suit and it's also around 250m distance, but it's in the shadow and at the little wood. Potentially the issue is that shadows make you feel too safe, when they are in fact not observed/applied to detection rating.

Just looked at your video and I agree that the enemy AI seems to detect you a bit to fast there after a single shot.

One thing I noticed is that you are prone in the downslope of the hill and maybe why they pick you up so fast. I agree about the shadows, they can sometimes make you feel "safer" than you actually are, don't know if they are part of the calculation for AI detection but like you I don't think so.

Another thing that play part when comparing AI tests is what value you have on "skillEnemy=" in <username>.ArmA2Profile as well as skill level set in the editor since both of those affects the AI's visual detection range.

My tests mentioned above was done using skillEnemy=0.75; and skill slider at 50% in the editor.

...Yet everyone or at least many still feel that our rigs these days can`t handle grass done right? Think about it for awhile.

You and OP are right, current implementation is not perfect and can be improved upon but my personal happiness about latest "grass layer implementation" is that it's a big step forward from what we previously had in ArmA II 1.00 - 1.04 - i.e none.

As a sniper wannabee I would love to see BIS taking it even further but until then this is better than nothing at all, just my 0.20 SEK!

/KC

Edited November 14, 2009 by KeyCat

[maturin 12]

Sure you started the beta patch with correct shortcut!? You can verify version number on main screen, it should read 1.04.60141 for current beta.

When I join a MP game, it says I'm running the beta, so yes.

[KeyCat 131]

When I join a MP game, it says I'm running the beta, so yes.

Thats strange... All I can say is that it works for me using 60141, I also played MP yesterday and other clients did get (partly) hidden in the grasslayer if looking at them over distance in scope/binocs.

Could it be related to terrain detail settings? We used Terrain Detail = Very High, hope you find the cause...

/KC

[maturin 12]

I use Terrain=Normal, so it seems like I should see it.

[TimRiceSE 10]

just cos your modline when you join a MP server says beta does not mean that you are using the beta executable. Look to the bottom right of the screen in the main startup menu for the build that you are running. If its not 60141 at the end, youre not running latest beta

[maturin 12]

just cos your modline when you join a MP server says beta does not mean that you are using the beta executable. Look to the bottom right of the screen in the main startup menu for the build that you are running. If its not 60141 at the end, youre not running latest beta

Yeah, I'm not running it.

I am using the beta launch shortcut from the main Arma 2 folder. It has the line the readme reccommends: C:\Program Files\Bohemia Interactive\ArmA 2\beta\arma2.exe" -mod=beta

When I change that to C:\Program Files\Bohemia Interactive\ArmA 2\beta\arma2.exe" -mod=beta; -mod=@FDF_Sounds -nosplash however, I get an error on startup and it is the sound mod causing the problem. This does launch the beta version.

I have -mod=beta; -mod=@FDF_Sounds -nosplash in the Steam launch options, which runs the sound mod but not the beta. Can I make the Steam launcher refer to the beta .exe? Or how do I make the beta launch shortcut handle my mods correctly?

Edited November 15, 2009 by maturin

[xeno 234]

I have -mod=beta; -mod=@FDF_Sounds -nosplash in the Steam launch options

It is -mod=beta;@FDF_Sounds -nosplash

Only use -mod once and separate the mod folders with a semicolon.

Xeno

[maturin 12]

It is -mod=beta;@FDF_Sounds -nosplash

Only use -mod once and separate the mod folders with a semicolon.

Xeno

"C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\arma 2\beta\arma2.exe" -mod=beta;@FDF_Sounds;@CBA -nosplash

This is the line I have and it does not work.

FDF_Sounds and CBA are both modfolders, and properly named. I've tried adding spaces after the semi-colons and a semi-colon after CBA, but no luck.

Does it have something to do with the fact that I'm running the beta .exe directly, and adding the mods to it, rather than running the normal .exe and adding the beta to it like another mod? I tried the latter in Steam and it did not work, however.

[TimRiceSE 10]

Make sure the "start in" directory of the shortcut is your arma2 dir, not your arma2/beta dir. i.e.

shortcut points to : "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\arma 2\beta\arma2.exe" -mod=beta;@FDF_Sounds;@CBA -nosplash

HOWEVER the 2nd address in a box lower down on the shortcut properties should be:

"C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\arma 2\"

[maturin 12]

This is what I have, and it sounds exactly like what you're describing and nothing like BI's terrible readme.

Again, with this arrangement the beta patch works fine, but the mods crash the startup process.

With the an automatically generated Steam shortcut with the same mod entries, the mods work but the beta does not run.

---------- Post added at 10:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------

*sigh*

Now it works and I didn't change anything except to erase the shortcut and re-write the target manually. Now my computer doesn't recognize the publishers, but the mods work.

I'm thoroughly confused but I guess I shouldn't complain.

Anyone know how to get Steam to launch the beta?

[Dwarden 1125]

tried use full path to the mod like -mod=beta;drive:\path\@FDF

?

[markushaze 10]

@ maturin

Sorry to go off topic, Just to give a heads up:

Instead of hassling with your mods and shortcut:

use this

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=81060

There are other launchers out there, but this one works great for me :-)

Read the thread, and place a little thanx:-)

Edited November 16, 2009 by markushaze

[Perun 0]

I'd like to write something about the original topic. Yes maybe it is not looking like a best solution, but it definitely is the best solution, because there is no other solution except then render grass at higher distances. You must count with capabilities of DirectX.

[nomdeplume 0]

I don't believe there is any 'layer'. The units are just sunk into the ground where there is grass. Notice that it only affects infantry. [...] At least the system now in ArmA 2 doesn't seem to have any negative effects.

The only issue I've noticed is that you now you have to aim higher than where you see the enemy, because visually they're sunk lower than their actual position. If you put a shot right on to them, it'll actually impact the ground in front of them. This gets a bit confusing because when it kicks up dirt, the impact puff is right on top of your target so it looks like a perfect hit; but the puff will be brown rather than red.

If you aim a bit higher, then the red impact puff will be floating in the air over your target - but in the game world it'll be a direct hit. Primarily an issue with scoped weapons at longer range.

It's not a major issue once you're accustomed to it and remember to offset your shot, but it is a little immersion-breaking.

[maturin 12]

It's just an issue of dust vs. blood plume, isn't it? I'd be shocked if they actually made the units appear lower than the actually were.

[Alex72 1]

@Some Kind Of Guy:

Your right about that they now sink down into the grass. Its not just "there" and the AI walk through it, but they sink down when walking on grass. Specially noticeable when they lay down (prone). They lie down on top and then sink through the grass.

I didnt know there would be a problem with this, but it sounds like the AI is still there - his mass - but the visual body slides down in the grass.

Im off to test this right away.

[nomdeplume 0]

It's just an issue of dust vs. blood plume, isn't it? I'd be shocked if they actually made the units appear lower than the actually were.

Well that was the big difference between the 'distant grass layer' implementation in Arma 1 and the one we have now in Arma 2. In Arma 1, the grass was on top of the ground, so the units were drawn where they actually were and there was a bit of 'fuzz' added on top. Apparently some people didn't like the look of this, particularly on hilltops.

So the new version doesn't add a grass layer on top, but instead lowers the unit into the terrain a bit. Achieves more or less the same visual effect, but without the fuzz.

Edit: a video showing what I'm talking about is here:

It's a subtle effect, which took me a while to start noticing. Now I can't un-notice it.

If the video isn't clear enough or you just can't be bothered, here's the final round fired in the video:

Edited November 18, 2009 by some kind of guy
Linked video and screenshots

[Alex72 1]

Yep i have started to notice this more and more. Its the next step that BIS needs to fix before this feature is solid. Good report. Make sure you report it over at DevHeaven as well (link in my sig). Thanks.

Alex