civillian children

[Archamedes 10]

Wow, i really have opened a can of worms here, wasn't my intention it was mainly curiosity that i guess i knew the answer to.

I remember the resident evil 5 outcry, that really did make my blood boil. "its racist because only black people are being killed."

The game is set in africa now please correct me if I'm wrong but what live's in africa? Oh yes your right we made a big mistake everyone knows its eskimos.

Well i see the community does have the same worry that i did about a children mod and if ever someone did create an addon like that (private) and uploaded child massacre I would not be happy and would probably slam the owener in the comments. Its just a shame that something like that if used properly would work well, but a minority always ruin it for the rest of us

[Master gamawa 0]

Wow, i really have opened a can of worms Its just a shame that something like that if used properly would work well, but a minority always ruin it for the rest of us

isn't that like... you know... what always happened? It works for everything. Drugs, freedom, nuclear power, alternative fuel, men with huge genitalia...

That's why we can't have nice things.

[andersson 285]

If you have so much problems with kids in wars you better not watch the movie Blood diamond (among other movies with kids in war, quite a few).

BIS didnt include kids, and rightly so, as the games rating, reputation and sales would suffer from it.

But if someone makes a mod it doesnt change that. I wouldnt mind kids in my game, they are a part of a conflict. Then if someone get off by doing stuff ingame, non of my business or concern. I guess quite a few have made cow slaughters, running over rabbits with tanks, shooting dogs and goats for fun. I dont mind anyone doing that, its a game. But I havent had the urge to pull the trigger on an animal yet, feels wrong for me.

I know I shouldnt compare animals with kids, but what Im talking about is to do something ingame that is not accepted in the society (driving over goats, burning up villages, shooting women, shooting men). We cant stop it. Does it matter what people do in their own game? Does it affect anyone else? No.

Kids for me would be a good addition to the moral dilemma, should I bomb that village or not? (Im struggling already because of the cows :P)

A question. I am looking forward to a zombiemod. For the rest of you that do it, would you mind zombie kids? You can see them in most of the movies..

edit: I just realised the title of this topic. Civilian children. What about child soldiers? Who wants them ingame ;)

Edited November 5, 2009 by andersson
topic title

[killakaze 10]

i agree it would add to the moral dilemma and make me think more about my actions in game children are a part of any real war situation most of the time and taking them out of the equation has to effect the whole dynamic of the way you approach a situation probably why children were not discluded from vbs2 anyway i cant beleive some of the reasons people come up with for why it shouldnt be in arma2 your already killing people ingame i cant understand some of you all you ever hear about arma is how realistic it is and how its a simulations now i have a bunch of 12 year olds sayings its not its just a game. i hope the future direction bis take the arma franchise isnt directly effected by you guys otherwise i hope vbs becomes more affordable and we go seperate ways lol i dont want to deal with you lot

Edited November 5, 2009 by Killakaze

[celery 8]

Why are people getting all riled up about children in a game? Are Fallout 2 and Jagged Alliance 2 the ultimate evils in the game industry? No, they're considered some of the best games ever on the PC and nobody even remembers that YOU CAN KILL CHILDREN IN THEM OMG! You can even save the game, kill all children in sight and quick load to do it all over again! How bad is that? Burn those games! :butbut:

[Master gamawa 0]

Just saying.. It wouldn't affect me if there were 3d kids running around in chernarus. I'd kill them fine. You know.. they are not real so I don't really give a shit. I don't have feelings towards 3d models.

And to be honest I wouldn't use kids in my missions because I don't really need them. I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind such choices some companies make...

Edited November 5, 2009 by Master gamawa

[Archamedes 10]

ah well i guess there is a way around it. Strong storylines with the essence that make it sound like there are kids involved can still be moving and effective. "We gotta do something, there where kids in that village, small kids, the rebels just lined them up and shot them like they where nothing." You get the idea... Its like in films what you can't see scares you more than a big cgi monster on screen.

[Binkowski 25]

Man. Lots of people don't want them. I'm just curious. Why.

[celery 8]

Man. Lots of people don't want them. I'm just curious. Why.

The absence of children is the only thing preventing them from confronting their true nature. They don't care if someone else lines children up in the editor for summary execution, they're afraid that they'll do it themselves. Which is hilarious because they're just pixels on the screen.

[colligpip 0]

I dont get it you get all upset at the thought of children in the game but you forget about the bunnies. YOU CAN KILL THE BUNNIES..... its sick.

[killakaze 10]

its funny i agree with you 100% celery, i guess if they cant trust themselves how can they trust others, lol uglyboy i cant imagine that is the proper stand for bambi but after some stuff ive seen on youtube about disney movies who knows.

[nicolasroger 11]

I would bomb those kids looking pixels if they are close to a tank. You know why? because they are not real!

I don't care if they are no kids ingame, but I won't be upset if someone create a mod

[Black1ron 10]

I cant understand some of you all you ever hear about arma is how realistic it is and how its a simulations now i have a bunch of 12 year olds sayings its not its just a game. i hope the future direction bis take the arma franchise isnt directly effected by you guys otherwise i hope vbs becomes more affordable and we go seperate ways lol i dont want to deal with you lot

It is a milsim. A milsim with a community who prefers to not have it's butt ten-feet deep in PR crap.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Black1ron

[nodunit 397]

Why are people getting all riled up about children in a game? Are Fallout 2 and Jagged Alliance 2 the ultimate evils in the game industry? No, they're considered some of the best games ever on the PC and nobody even remembers that YOU CAN KILL CHILDREN IN THEM OMG! You can even save the game, kill all children in sight and quick load to do it all over again! How bad is that? Burn those games! :butbut:

Well I take back my statements then, I thought the gaming industry was far more stern on things like that but if that is not the case then I suppose BIS has nothing to worry about.

[Fudgeblood 10]

Man. Lots of people don't want them. I'm just curious. Why.

Because they think it's morally wrong for a pixelated child to get killed in a video game, and they seem to think that if there are children in video games everyone will just blow them to bits or have sex with them :rolleyes:

I personally see nothing wrong with children in games, it makes the game much more deep, moving and haunting.

[Archamedes 10]

This topic has gone from a morally wrong "No" to "its kind of acceptable because they are pixels and not real." are people turning heads and seeing the other side of the story or is it still like walking in a minefield blindfolded?

[andersson 285]

Kids has always been a hot topic on BIS forum. OFP, arma and now arma2.

And I understand why. No need to explain as you all been reading this topic.

What we need to think about is the difference between BIS implementing kids and users making an addon. I understand and support 100% that BIS is not implementing kids. That would be bad for sales and reputation.

But I dont mind if any user make an addon, I would use it myself. Nothing is stopping a user to make whatever addon, it doesnt have the same impact as an official BIS implementation.

Imagine someone making an elephant with a d**k instead of a trunk. Some laughs maybe. Imagine BIS doing the same...

I think the community can get away with far more than BIS. So if "we" make a child addon I guess there might be some turbulence, but I doubt arma2 and BIS will suffer that much.

edit: I personally have no moral dilemma having kids ingame. And the civilians and animals have made me more "aware" of situations in my missions. Children would bump that up alot for me.

Then the question is if that bump is worth all drama in the community (and maybe outside?)? I dont know..

Edited November 6, 2009 by andersson
moral thought

[Alex72 1]

Interestingly there was a show on tv the other day talking about games like Second Life etc. And people making such games where you live your second life in them has to abide to ALL laws of EVERY country. They talked about the problem with grown ups creating avatars looking like children and then other avatars that look (and are) adults that have sex with them (very sick). But they had to make sure that doesnt happen among other things.

It was just interesting as i had no idea you have to follow laws of every country if you make an internet game. Thaught it was kind of law less territory tbh.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Just take a look at Second Life (.com) in it's status quo.

You need to prove your real life identity for many parts of it.

Same would immediately happen to BI games with kids in it.

And Second Life is all modded by users.

So BI would have to make sure that only adults are able to enter the games and identify them.

That's very difficult for practical reasons, not just as simple as it is done on the arma2.com-page.

And, secondly, many cogamers, like me, would simple stopp doing BI games when being pressed to give their real life identity, like it happens in Second Life.

I think, BI, like me, would say: Thank you, you nice modders, who only feel "haunted" and "immersed" when being able to kill virtual children!

Just take a look at the user-statistics of Second Life since the time they had to implement that user-control. It's a sharpest decrease of users ...

I completely disagree on having children ingame.

But maybe that's because I do have children in real life.

I would quit every mission/mod at the time I see children and I think many mature gamers will do. I will even think about throwing BI games in the dustbin after 8 years of gaming.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Herbal Influence
spelling

[andersson 285]

I completely disagree on having children ingame.

But maybe that's because I do have children in real life.

Thats the thing. I dont agree nor disagree, I just dont mind and could see it as immersive. But from a community standpoint Im not so sure that extra immersion is worth bad feelings from other users, and maybe some bad reputation for the game.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Thanks, andersson.

One more aspect:

The sharp decrease of users in Second Life has also another important reason:

It's not only that you gotta deliver your personal data.

Many, like me, don't want to deal with people who are willing to identify themselves just to enter red-light-districts in Second Life.

I speak of those who are anxious about their real and private life, not of those who aren't.

I don't care about the latter.

In other words: My privacy is important to me. People who give up privacy just for killing virtual childs or entering virtual-red-light-districts are not the one I will have fun with online.

This may sound elitistic (?) to some, but I will not deliver a speech about the importance of privacy here.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Herbal Influence

[Alex72 1]

Agreed with above (Andersson). I wouldnt mind having it in missions for myself with friends (for immersion and authentic mood), but i do understand its a touchy subject and therefore wouldnt want it to be in by default.

Agreed on the SL thing about putting out your personal data. I avoid such things on the net like the plague. I just dont trust some companies on the net to keep my data protected.

[Master gamawa 0]

Man. Lots of people don't want them. I'm just curious. Why.

I'll tell you the real truth.

We don't want children in Arma because 3d children are creepy. You know, kids walk and behave in a certain way that will be even more haunting once you motion capture those little bastards and let them loose in Chernarus.

[andersson 285]

This is a interesting thing to discuss. To be clear, I fully respect you Hebal Influence and the rest that dont want children ingame. But for the discussion; what about the morality of women ingame? They can by default not even pick up a gun. The use they have is limited info-gathering, and to be honest, "potential collateral dammage".

Edited November 6, 2009 by andersson

[Herbal Influence 10]

Well - I think this is an interesting discussion with some nice posts.

Perhaps the solution lies in here:

How far would we go to have a most realistic milsim?

Just to give one example:

If, one day, PC-monitors are able to splatter you all over with blood or cause you feelings of being shot at ... would we want that for better immersion?

If we don't want that why do we want to watch children getting killed for better immersion?

Do we like immersion only insofar as it is comfortable for us?

So we could end the discussion by saying:

Yes, it's not about realism and immersion it's about comfortable entertainment?

I don't need to kill virtual children for comfortable entertainment.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Herbal Influence
spelling