Lisbon Treaty II. Ireland votes Yes?!!?

[echo1 0]

Can someone on the No side of the divide please show me some direct quotes from the Lisbon treaty that prove that my freedoms will be taken away and that my fetuses will be aborted, and that my children, and my children's children will be repeatedly gang-raped by Belgian bureaucrats?

[derk yall 0]

Well sorry if it¨s not in the exact place like in other language versions so:

The translation into english is done by me, so I's not how it is in the english version.

Paragraph 3a (page 14 of czech PDF version)

"Členské státy usnadňují Unii plnění jejích úkolů a zdrží se všech opatření, jež by mohla ohrozit

dosažení cílů Unie.“

"Member country will make easy fulfillment of Union's duty and hold back any arangement wich could threaten it"

That sound like if you have no right to refuse anything the rest of the coutries want, this can be seen as the lost of sovereignty of any coutry.

Paragraph 9a (page 19 of czech PDF version)

"Evropský parlament se skládá ze zástupců obÄanů Unie. Jejich poÄet nesmí pÅ™ekroÄit

sedm set padesát, nepoÄítaje pÅ™edsedu. Zastoupení obÄanů je zajiÅ¡tÄ›no pomÄ›rným sestupným

způsobem, pÅ™iÄemž je stanovena minimální hranice Å¡esti Älenů na Älenský stát. Žádnému

Älenskému státu nesmí být pÅ™idÄ›leno více než devadesát Å¡est míst. "

"European parlament consider of representative of citizens of the Union. Theyre count can overcame 750, not countig the prime-minister. Representation of citizens is guaranted by relative voting, in wich the minimal count of 6 seats is given on a member state. No country can have more than 96 seats."

Well, this is the place where small states can be out-vote by bigger countries. I think that if the EU have to be fair, the number of seats should be equal. No citizens of any country should be outvote (cause his country have been given less seats) only cause of god-will he was born in that or that country.

Paragraph 9a (page 19 of czech PDF version)

"Evropská rada dává Unii nezbytné podněty pro její rozvoj a vymezuje její obecné

politické směry a priority. Nevykonává legislativní funkci."

"European coucil give the union necessary sugestions for it developement and limit(enclose/ inclose?) it common political direction and priorities. (the council) dont do legislative function"

That limit(eclose? sorry on this one:( ) can be a limiting factor for the democratic freedom of votes, if the council find an political direction out of the limits.

Sorry for the time it takes, I have in fact to reread the LT. but those are the points that I dont agree on the beginning of the document.

Please, dont call me euro-sceptic or non-european, I want an good, strong and mostly fair to everyone (wich woulndt depend on the place he have been born) EU, but not in this way it seems to be going.:(

I apologies for the mistakes I made in the translation, I'm not very good in english. With regard D.Y.

[trickster1982 10]

Im British & i'd prefer to stay that way, there really is no need for us all to be governed by some unaccountable & unelected suits in some far off land. I have no problem with us trading with other european countries & having close ties with them, but not being all under the same socialist umbrella with sinister motives underneath all the fluffy "we'll all be one big happy family" exterior. As im currently going through selection for the British army I will be scrapping it if our army becomes merged into some single european army, again Im British & will not serve under what is essentially "the fourth reich".

If you dont find projects like this frightening then you clearly have your head buried in the sand http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/23/eu_crime_prediction_project/

Besides, all empires collapse into civil war eventually, just look back over history, the EU will not be any different because eventually nations will want their independance back & certain groups will begin to fight for it.

[echo1 0]

Im British & i'd prefer to stay that way, there really is no need for us all to be governed by some unaccountable & unelected suits in some far off land.

What about the unaccountable and unelected suits in Westminster?

As im currently going through selection for the British army I will be scrapping it if our army becomes merged into some single european army, again Im British & will not serve under what is essentially "the fourth reich".

Yep. Because being merged into the US army and fighting their wars for them is obviously so much better for Britain, innit?

If you dont find projects like this frightening then you clearly have your head buried in the sand.

Or maybe I have some perspective that you clearly don't seem to have.

[HotShot 0]

The EU are coming! RUN!!

It is not some far off land, unless of course you think a booze cruise to Calais is exotic, and your claims of a sinister, socialist state and then of the 'fourth reich' make those old anti-capitalist posters of some evil monster lurking in the shadows spring to mind.

But I guess Trickster will be laughing when those blood sucking vampires in Brussels take the babies!

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, i can understand that LT or the way it is adopted are criticized. But i'm very sad of what i'm reading here. No lessons have been learnt from recent history i'm afraid :

(1) How can one compare EU to any of the former socialist organizations ? This is not only frightening me, but also making me regret my vote for a quick enlargement of EU to the former communist countries. It was a mistake i'm afraid. After all what happened to the czech people, how can one make such a comparison ?

(2) I still don't understand why the so euro sceptic Great Britain still wishes to be part of EU. If the EU is the devil, leave us alone please. But don't forget that the peace between european countries is partly due to the EU and lasts for more than 60 years now. When have we seen such a long lasting peace period before in Europe (apart from the collapse of the former Yugoslavia) ? I've lost many members of my family in the last two world wars, and i'm now very happy to see the German people as my friends and brothers.

[derk yall 0]

Well, i can understand that LT or the way it is adopted are criticized. But i'm very sad of what i'm reading here. No lessons have been learnt from recent history i'm afraid :

(1) How can one compare EU to any of the former socialist organizations ? This is not only frightening me, but also making me regret my vote for a quick enlargement of EU to the former communist countries. It was a mistake i'm afraid. After all what happened to the czech people, how can one make such a comparison ?

...

That was me, And I found it now a little to much off but this is the way it seems to people here. But, dont think that it (RVHP) was something cruel and evil, so it's not so much of an accusion. But please in these discusions it's not good to use the term "after all what happened to czech people" there are still people (not me, but I know some, yes it maybe stupid, but it's a fact) wich are angry on france and britain about the thing they did in 1938 wich caused the thing which happened in 1948.

[trickster1982 10]

Or maybe I have some perspective that you clearly don't seem to have.

Ok and whats your perspective Mr educated on all things EU? Sell it to me, why do you think becoming a federal european superstate is actually going to benefit Britain? It clearly hasnt so far, I grew up on a farm & watched how EU agricultural rules destroyed my fathers livelihood, as well as the fishing industry of the local towns. What about the fact that we are one of the highest contributers to the EU purse yet we get the least back from it?

What about the EU human rights act that has put criminals & deviants rights before the safety of the general public?

How about the fact that arsehole Tony Blair who wrecked Britain & dragged us into two wars before buggering off with his smarmy grin & leaving us with that goldfish breathing scottish clown is now tipped to be the EU president? What about the fact people from all european nations are fundamentally different in attitudes towards each other?

Will Hollands lax drugs & prostitution laws be scrapped to bring them in line with other EU countries, or will their stance be adopted right across europe? cant have one rule for one & one for another if we all fall under one government!

The EU are trying to integrate the Ukraine as well as Georgia where that skirmish happened last year, will Russia stand for that or will the EU be heading for a stand-off with them? The EU would wet its pants if Russia started trampling across eastern europe!

Why were the Irish made to vote again when the answer was clearly no the first time round? That makes a mockery of the democracy the EU claims to be & is an indication of the organisations true colours.

I could go on but you get my point, your entitled towards your opinion just as much as im entitled to mine

[ProfTournesol 956]

That was me, And I found it now a little to much off but this is the way it seems to people here. But, dont think that it (RVHP) was something cruel and evil, so it's not so much of an accusion. But please in these discusions it's not good to use the term "after all what happened to czech people" there are still people (not me, but I know some, yes it maybe stupid, but it's a fact) wich are angry on france and britain about the thing they did in 1938 wich caused the thing which happened in 1948.

We're all ashamed of what happened in 1938, but it has nothing to do with EU. I was mainly thinking of 1968....

[trickster1982 10]

The EU are coming! RUN!!

It is not some far off land, unless of course you think a booze cruise to Calais is exotic, and your claims of a sinister, socialist state and then of the 'fourth reich' make those old anti-capitalist posters of some evil monster lurking in the shadows spring to mind.

But I guess Trickster will be laughing when those blood sucking vampires in Brussels take the babies!

I've been all over the world mate so hardly. :rolleyes:

Whats wrong with Britain wanting to remain an independant nation though? Its done us well for hundreds of years so why the need to opt into some pathetic empire building project? Im not alone in my opinions or there wouldnt be such a strong demand for a referendum on it.

[derk yall 0]

Yes, I know that it has nothing to do with Eu, I only wanted to suggest to not show to the history because both west and lately east have betrayed us. These are still topics that bring anger in peoples.

I think that I have exagerated when I compared the EU to RVHP, so there is my excuse to it. I am glad that you were fot the integration of the former eastern bloc countries from the central and eastern europe. but you have to understand that our political situation there is very unstable, we have bad experiance with any allies so people are insure. 20 years after the velvet revolution something have improved, but many thing havent, our economy was destroyed in a thief, the media (our own, not sure if abroad) try to show the imige of czech like thief. Many of people are desilusioned now. The power of the KSÄŒM (Communistic party of Bohemia and Moravia) is growning and because of the injustice brought by the democrats and socialist people tend to vote them. We know that our country is in a mess, but hovever we want to be sure, that our little sovereignity, will stand. And the way the LT is presented to us, it seems, that we will lost it again. This is why people dont want it, they dont want to be again someone wich can be easily outvoted again.

[echo1 0]

Ok and whats your perspective Mr educated on all things EU? Sell it to me, why do you think becoming a federal european superstate is actually going to benefit Britain?

Who said there was going to be a Federal European superstate? Either point out to me a section of the Lisbon treaty that explicitly states that this is going to happen, or have the decency to admit that you're trying to pass off scaremongering conjecture as a proper argument.

It clearly hasnt so far, I grew up on a farm & watched how EU agricultural rules destroyed my fathers livelihood, as well as the fishing industry of the local towns. What about the fact that we are one of the highest contributers to the EU purse yet we get the least back from it?

My parents watched Ireland transformed from a third-world shithole run by paedophile priests into one of the richest countries in the world. Something that was almost single-handedly facilitated by the EU. If we're going to have a pissing competition over how the EU affected the place in which you live, I think I win.

What about the EU human rights act that has put criminals & deviants rights before the safety of the general public?

You know, that's as much a problem with national legal systems as it is with the EU. Again you are blaming the EU for things that your government is as much if not more responsible. And I like the fact that there is a higher court which exists away from national bias - the decriminalization of homosexuality in Ireland was something that happened in my lifetime (and I'm only 20) and it wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the EU Court of Human rights overturning the idiots in our national courts. So really it works both ways.

How about the fact that arsehole Tony Blair who wrecked Britain & dragged us into two wars before buggering off with his smarmy grin & leaving us with that goldfish breathing scottish clown is now tipped to be the EU president?

Yep, it's the EU's fault that the majority of your country voted two dipshits into office in succession!

What about the fact people from all european nations are fundamentally different in attitudes towards each other?

I'm sure you'll find that there are a lot of different groups within Britain that have fundamentally different attitudes towards everything. This is why we have democracy, remember?

Will Hollands lax drugs & prostitution laws be scrapped to bring them in line with other EU countries, or will their stance be adopted right across europe? cant have one rule for one & one for another if we all fall under one government!

I really don't think sensitive issues of morality like this are going to be forced on member states by the EU. For example, the EU have made promises that things like abortion, conscription or involvement in military missions wouldn't be forced on Ireland. I assume the same rationale can be applied to other countries with regards to similar issues.

The EU are trying to integrate the Ukraine as well as Georgia where that skirmish happened last year, will Russia stand for that or will the EU be heading for a stand-off with them? The EU would wet its pants if Russia started trampling across eastern europe!

Well, as of the moment, you're running after the US invading random Arab countries, so it's not as if your political 'independence' is a guarantee that your military won't be used to further someone else's interests. And if Russia invaded Europe, I think the British government would be responding anyway one way or another.

Why were the Irish made to vote again when the answer was clearly no the first time round? That makes a mockery of the democracy the EU claims to be & is an indication of the organisations true colours.

There were a lot of questions about our sovereignty that popped up the first time. Second time around we were given certain guarantees about these concerns. The No campaign acted like these concessions hadn't been made, and failboated miserably.

your entitled towards your opinion just as much as im entitled to mine

Sure you are, but that doesn't meant that it's correct, or that I have to respect it.

Edited October 5, 2009 by echo1

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, I know that it has nothing to do with Eu, I only wanted to suggest to not show to the history because both west and lately east have betrayed us. These are still topics that bring anger in peoples.

I think that I have exagerated when I compared the EU to RVHP, so there is my excuse to it. I am glad that you were fot the integration of the former eastern bloc countries from the central and eastern europe. but you have to understand that our political situation there is very unstable, we have bad experiance with any allies so people are insure. 20 years after the velvet revolution something have improved, but many thing havent, our economy was destroyed in a thief, the media (our own, not sure if abroad) try to show the imige of czech like thief. Many of people are desilusioned now. The power of the KSÄŒM (Communistic party of Bohemia and Moravia) is growning and because of the injustice brought by the democrats and socialist people tend to vote them. We know that our country is in a mess, but hovever we want to be sure, that our little sovereignity, will stand. And the way the LT is presented to us, it seems, that we will lost it again. This is why people dont want it, they dont want to be again someone wich can be easily outvoted again.

Well i do understand your point of view, and i'm sorry for what is happening in your country, but i'm afraid that the little help you may expect will come mainly from the EU, and the LT is only an (unperfect) way of taking decisions with so many members.

[derk yall 0]

I think that it will happen, Klaus is now in a quite bad situation and I am affraid that he will sign it. Who know? Maybe one day there will be a new *insert random city* Treaty, that will bring vote justice, butt untill that day I personaly think that it would be a harsh period. Helas who know what will happen in the uncertain future. In this democratic society, we have only the right to discus it (LT/ US radar/ etc.) but no power to change anything at all.

[GoOB 0]

I don't see how the European Union could in any shape or form be described as an "empire building project" - To me it seems pretty clear that it is a vehicle to strengthen Europe as a whole, tapping into the power that a well organized and orchestrated cooperation between nations has to offer. Not only for the benefit of European countries, but as I see it for the benefit of the world at large.

Economical cooperation is a thing the world is in dire need of, especially our part of the world - A part of the world with a wealth of resources and an even greater wealth of technology and education at it's disposal, but a part that is (thankfully) divided over several nations, with different laws, ideas and regulations on how to conduct trade, exchange of knowledge and many other things that are necessary for a strong economy, and a strong society. In my mind, and in my view, the EU is trying, and in some cases succeeding quite well in abridging those gaps - Making cooperation easier for the benefit of the individual member states, and in the end, for the benefit of European influence upon the rest of the world.

As for the military aspects of the EU, I certainly welcome what is about to take place - Atleast as far as the European Union Battlegroups, I hope that they will entail that in the future, European nations involved in peacekeeping and or other mission types won't be as liable to wind up under NATO command or mandate. Operation Artemis for one proves (to me) that the battlegroups are a sound concept, a concept that will be much needed in the future.

[JdB 151]

Maybe one day there will be a new *insert random city* Treaty, that will bring vote justice, butt untill that day I personaly think that it would be a harsh period.

We already have "vote justice" at the Eurovision Song Contest. Every country has an equal vote. It sucks, you get block voting. The same would happen with "vote justice" in the EU. (Relatively) poor countries bunching up to vote to allot themselves huge sums of money while paying for only a fraction of the EUs total budget. That's not how it works, or how it should work. Especially not with the known problems with corruption in many Eastern European countries.

Pay more money, and you get more influence. Perfectly simple that the largest countries are also the most powerful ones, since they can afford to pay for their position in the EU (many inhabitants + modern economy = a lot of income through taxes). What you're suggesting is like a person buying a single share and demanding to have as much of a say as an investment group that has a million shares. That's not how economy works (or democracy for that matter).

As for the military part, I feel any organization that is under the direct influence of a major non-European power (UN Security Council with Russia, China and to some extent the US) is useless in situations where it actually matters (where actual action is required rather than endless talk and sabotage). Still, I don't see much coming from all of this. A few weeks ago at an airport in the Netherlands, 1 of 3 C-17 aircraft landed which were purchased by no less than 12 European countries combined (would have been far too much of a burden to purchase for any single country). Oh yes, and the US also ordered another 190 on top of the vast arsenal it already has. Any European military action needs the support of the US unfortunately. We can't afford things that the US can (of course their deficit is huge), partially because the US is a single entity, while the European countries all have separate armies that all need to have the same capabilities to use for the protection of their own country. If Europe was to ever come up with a single defense policy for all member states and a centralized command, they could save so much money and still have so much more capability.

Edited October 6, 2009 by JdB

[Baff1 0]

The problem is that I can't really see the difference between having one useless parliament, and having two. Stupid laws get made anyway, taxes go up anyway, freedoms disappear anyway. On the other hand, the EU has done some great things for Ireland, so I'd really question the merits of biting the hand that feeds us when we need them the most.

It's not the same where I live.

The hand doesn't feed us so much as take the food from our plates. When we need it most and all the rest of the time too.

---------- Post added at 04:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 AM ----------

Pay the same amount of money and your vote will be equal. Its as easy as that.

We pay more than anyone else and we don't get a vote.

Why? Because our vote is "no". And the people spending all our money won't allow us to be free.

It will come to a war in the end. It always does. There is no other way to explain things to people who won't listen.

---------- Post added at 04:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 AM ----------

Yep. Because being merged into the US army and fighting their wars for them is obviously so much better for Britain, innit?

You are correct, it is.

Being merged into a Commonwealth army and fighting their wars for them is even better for Britain than that still.

Being merged into a European army isn't necessarily altogether bad for Britain, but it ranks well below being merged with a Russian army for example. I'm sure it's not hard for you to recognise that there are plenty of better military options out there for a nation such as ours.

---------- Post added at 04:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 AM ----------

(2) I still don't understand why the so euro sceptic Great Britain still wishes to be part of EU. If the EU is the devil, leave us alone please. But don't forget that the peace between european countries is partly due to the EU and lasts for more than 60 years now. When have we seen such a long lasting peace period before in Europe (apart from the collapse of the former Yugoslavia) ? I've lost many members of my family in the last two world wars, and i'm now very happy to see the German people as my friends and brothers.

The EU has done nothing for peace between European countries.

That was brought to you at gun point by the troops of Russia, Britain, America and the Commonwealth and has been maintained by them ever since.

Lest we forget their sacrifice.

The EU isn't about peace, it's about standing up and challenging America. Taking it's place as part of a new world order.

EU nationalism is on the march, and I stand against it, as my nation always has and as I hope, when the time comes, it will again.

The EU is not about maintaining the status quo that has kept the peace in Europe for the last 60 years, it is about rocking the boat again.

Becoming something larger. A world power. A world superpower to rival them all.

Again and again throughout history. And each time, millions die.

As for Britain leaving the EU, you are preaching to the converted, the British people wish to. When the EU stops bribing our politicians, perhaps we will be able to.

---------- Post added at 04:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 AM ----------

My parents watched Ireland transformed from a third-world shithole run by paedophile priests into one of the richest countries in the world. Something that was almost single-handedly facilitated by the EU. If we're going to have a pissing competition over how the EU affected the place in which you live, I think I win.

We think you win too.

The problem for us is, it was our money they gave to you that made you so rich.

Fantastic result for you, sucks utter balls for us.

You win, we lose. Welcome to the EU from a British perspective.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Baff1

[maddogx 13]

Yep. Because being merged into the US army and fighting their wars for them is obviously so much better for Britain, innit?

You are correct, it is.

Being merged into a Commonwealth army and fighting their wars for them is even better for Britain than that still.

Being merged into a European army isn't necessarily altogether bad for Britain, but it ranks well below being merged with a Russian army for example. I'm sure it's not hard for you to recognise that there are plenty of better military options out there for a nation such as ours.

Do I smell a hint of nationalism? Anyway, would you mind explaining why fighting for the US or the Russians is better than for the EU? I don't really follow your reasoning. Oh wait... there wasn't any.

The EU isn't about peace, it's about standing up and challenging America. Taking it's place as part of a new world order.

EU nationalism is on the march, and I stand against it, as my nation always has and as I hope, when the time comes, it will again.

The EU is not about maintaining the status quo that has kept the peace in Europe for the last 60 years, it is about rocking the boat again.

Becoming something larger. A world power. A world superpower to rival them all.

Again and again throughout history. And each time, millions die.

That sounds like so much anti-EU propaganda to me, and it's contradictory to top it off. On the one hand you talk about "the status quo that has kept the peace in Europe for the last 60 years", as if the member states should normally all be at each others throats. And then you turn it around and state the EU is basically about creating a new supranational incarnation of the third reich.

You do realize that the EU is still governed by representatives of the member states, right? There is no distant and mystical government trying to abolish our national identities and merge us all into a European superstate. In order for that to happen, the member states would have to be willing to do that. Somehow, I don't see that happening. Makes for a great propaganda story though. OMG we're gonna be ruled by a faceless European regime and MILLIONS will DIE! Quick, abolish the EU before it's too late!

As for Britain leaving the EU, you are preaching to the converted, the British people wish to. When the EU stops bribing our politicians, perhaps we will be able to.

Again, a defty whiff of nationalism. Perhaps I don't visit my home country often enough, but somehow I've never picked up on these strong anti-European sentiments "the British people" seem to have. Or maybe you just don't speak for the British people.

[metsapeikkoo 10]

inb4 "Soviet Union 2.0".

[vilas 477]

as i said on page 2

EU do not gives me any answer for life problems, much things changed in my country in last years against my own will and vision and how there in PL it was in there past

it is sad that politicians decide for people, in your countries people have better politicians, in my country 30-50% people vote, cause other do not see any politician honest

half of people hate the way it all happens in my country and there is no party to vote for, so they not walk on voting

for me personally EU gives what to my country USUAL people ?

not for "businessman" which is child of communisty security officer and in 1990 stated company and money "from nothing"

but for usual people

we have traditional food, natural - EU fights it , tries to give limits of production to farmers

we were safe to have home, now not, someone rich from other country can by my flat, no way

paedophiles, burglars, criminals have more and more and more "rights" in law , it is for me unacceptable

EU not touches most important areas or even is against those important areas of life

EU will not make my "catholic" law to allow euthanasia, abortion , anticonception (condoms) sexual education

EU will not make people equal to law, in my country member of parliament, judge, some high lawyers, special secret agents are OVER law, they are gods, they have "immunity"

they can break rules that other persons must obey

in Poland judge can kick you, steal something, drive 200 km/h on red light and even lie - you cannot do him ANYTHING, cause he has immunity because of function

EU will not delete it :/

but what offers EU?

that pederast can have child? what will be live of boy held by man and man instead of woman ? it is sick

what more offers EU ?

i cannot publish details of criminal who steal because his name, face is "protected"

it is fuckin sick

HALF of people in my country do not vote and fuck politics, i vote, but i don't like fact that i live in country that is totally against me

half of people vote cause they do not see any chances :(

every politician is liar, every is thief and they hold their circus not allowing other people to come inside

the same with lawyers - you cannot be lawyer if other lawyers (family) won't agree

it is called "corporation exam"

there is casta-type society , EU won't change it

but instead of it "not honest richmen cars" hurt my eyes

EU will not delete highest in europe level of corruption that is in my country, moreover EU gives restrictions to set up secret recording, keeping criminal in prison, etc.

i want harder law, like most of people in my country, L.T. not touches it, EU is for liberalisation, i will never accept if someone tells me that criminal, paedophile, rapist is human , never

L.T. touches only economical politics, which in my case can make my farmers problems

i really want natural, healthy food, not plastic western food full of E240, E470, Exxx, E666, E123456....

i am always for cooperation for better future, but i am against taking away sovereignty

EU should take care about my country level of corruption, immunity and not equality to law, not equality to law rich vs. poor etc.

in socialism some of aspects were much much better, other not

satisfaction of living in reality after 1989 depends if you are poor or rich (what parents, what connections)

EU is not touching this important areas

Poland is not Ireland , Ireland succeeded from EU, in my country money from EU are mostly wasted by thin group of people who are over others and live in guarded mansions,

EU gave us many things and we should owe them for this something

but we should know PROS and CONS, which we do not know

instead of this our politicians want to decide, if not strict gun control and helpless people situation would look other way

i still cannot say what is my opinion, but is seems that sovereignty is under risk by L T

EU is good idea, but EU touches only economy , it touches area which for is less important or senseless (size of banana, colour of banana, how much milk can farmer produce, what cheese can farmer do) instead of touching more important

i want free flat if i have no money for home, i want equality to law, i want no corruption, i want safe streets and criminals in graves , not banana size, milk limit, something other limit

[NoRailgunner 0]

Some Questions and Answers about Treaty of Lisbon: http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/faq/index_en.htm#15

[vilas 477]

hehehe

you giving me europa.eu as source ?

it is not objective, it is their site so how will they say about disadvantages ?

it is like asking BIS about Arma 2 "ultimate military simulator" with AKS74U better than G36, SVD better than M40E3, tanks destroyable easier than BMP, vehicles that blow up after shooting in doors, soldiers with god knowledge knowing and seeing almost all etc.

the fact that something has super graphics and people are super artist not make something simulation

the same to europa.eu website "does this treaty is danger for you, off course not" buy our product and you will be happy, banana size

this is not reliable source with quotation of paragraphs

in Polish law you have "court MAY do something" in previous law it was "court MUST do something"

judge not informed you about something ? it is his "free will", before it was "against law"

judge refused to use proves you gave ? it is his free will , no matter burglar is free and police job is wasted , MAY instead of MUST, one word change that changes all jurisdiction

i don't want merchandise EU brochure, i want paragraphs with danger points :D

one man site before gave some paragraphs and i agree that they are danger for us

Edited October 6, 2009 by vilas

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

I've heard there won't be death penalty in the EU except for striking down riots and insurrections legally. (german source) Is this true or is it a fake? I'm really concerned about this because the border between demonstration and insurrection can be very thin in a time of real crisis.

[vilas 477]

yeah, people who protest vs. richest fat pigs who stole us can be killed, but life of child-killer is protected :/

in EU we have death penalty forbidden, although 70% of Poles are for it, including myself

distance between poor and rich grows in my country, i wonder if there will be some serious tensions, cause many of us have enough of it all

let they kill rapist, paedophiles and not take care about of fat rich pigs

what is issurection ? it is people's will to change wrong goverment which lies and hurts people

politician say A before voting, when he is minister he say B and say "we cannot follow people's will"

man who was liberal yesterday, tommorow is catholic, next day after tommorow will be nationalist and 3 days later will be pro-gay socialist ?

we have politicians who join different and oposite parties every year :/ and stupid minority of poeple vote for "known face from TV"

as i said , in my country 30-58% frecfention in voting, over half population not votes, cause there is noone to choose

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frekwencja_wyborcza

who can we choose ? one is thief, second is liar, third is cyco, fourth is ex-agent do law for rich only...

normall and honest people almost have noone to vote for

Edited October 6, 2009 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Vilas, from what i'm reading from you, most of the troubles that are happening in your country don't seem to be due to the EU or to the LT but to the transition from the former communist state to the new democratic one. I know this process is very difficult in most of the former socialist countries, but to get rid of them, i'm afraid you'll need the (at least financial) help from your neighbours. It's true that there are a lot of shortcomings in the EU (not enough) common politics, French agriculturists are also complaining about agicultural policy but they forgot that this policy protected them for many years from the worldwide low prices.

EU is far from perfection but at least it does exist. How could one single European country compete alone with the other economic giants ?