Lisbon Treaty II. Ireland votes Yes?!!?

[maddogx 13]

No mate, you are just an angry troll.

... oh please. :rolleyes:

Maddog described voting on the Lisbon treaty as a mainly right wing agenda, ...

No, I think you misunderstood that. If you ask me, every country in the EU should hold a referendum on the issue. In fact I agree with much of what you have been saying. My right wing comment was aimed mainly at some of your comments, which I percieved as nationalistic (Britain > EU).

[vilas 474]

but what is worthy discuss if our president signs it without referendum ? :/

president "for" and for example 60% against in country X

for death penalty there were 78% poles but politicians decided to be "european" some years ago

such situations are in many areas in Lisbon treaty too - i know for sure i won't have right to vote in PL , my politicians will do it, politicians selected by 20-25% of people :/

Edited October 6, 2009 by vilas

[echo1 0]

for death penalty there were 78% poles but politicians decided to be "european" some years ago

Slightly off topic, but I sometimes really question the objectivity of people's opinions on things like that. I think people have this strange obsession with the death penalty that's largely reactionary in nature (not helped by the Tabloid media and such) I'm sure that there were plenty of sound minded people who heard about Joseph Fritzl, or the terrorists behind 9/11 and felt that the world would be a better place if these people were killed. I know I have, and can't think of many people who I know who would disagree.

Yet, if you sit down and try and rationalize it, there's a load of issues involved, and it's not exactly a fool proof solution. Throwing serious offenders away for life is a much more satisfactory solution in the long run.

I guess my point is that at the end of the day, some decisions are best left to those who know what they are talking about.

[GoOB 0]

for death penalty there were 78% poles but politicians decided to be "european"

You are about to get chemical castration of sex offenders instead though - You win some, you lose some.

[trickster1982 10]

You are about to get chemical castration of sex offenders instead though - You win some, you lose some.

Chemical castration doesnt go far enough though, as far as im aware it relies on the subject continuing to take the medication voluntarily & it would probably be "against their human rights" to force it down them, surgical castration would be far better in my opinion but thats a whole different debate to the EU one...

[GoOB 0]

Alot of countries (Sweden included) has volontary chemical castration as a part of treatment received within forensic psychiatry - The proposal that has been passed in the Polish sejmen revolves around forced chemical castration being an option of punishment for all pedophiles and practicioners of incest. But as said, the finer points of castration and laws revolving around it are best reserved for other topics. As are my views on the matter. My post was just a reply to Vilas' post. Rather snidely and sarcastically trying to make the point that the EU are not in any way involved in the sad state of the Polish judicial system or lawmaking, nor the fact that voters attendance is so low. Surely, it may be involved in letting such undemocratic and corrupt tendencies to contiue to flourish, but much to the joy of everyone, even with the Lisbon treaty signed those aren't matters for the EU to meddle in. As odd as it sounds considering their creepy fetish of making sure that bananas and various other fruits meet a certain standard.

Edited October 7, 2009 by GoOB

[vilas 474]

EU with it's sick sens of "human rights" is sick for me

why this whole goddamn UE see "criminal" as "human who have rights" and victim as "less human who have duties"

criminal "uber human" has right to live in good conditions , and i have "duty" to pay taxes for his bed, food and care ?

and this 78% i told - it was from official statistics

like with abortion - church lobby makes rights "good" for 20% of population and 80% has to obey "church rights"

look at Polansky - guy should be in prison, every usual Pole will tell the same, while "elites" "directors" "actors" will tell other things

our goddamn foreign minister wrote to Obama about Polansky, shame :/

i know many people who voted against joining EU , many of those who voted "for" thought the same like in 1980 "when communism fall i will be rich and happy"

now Polish small business has a lot of problems cause EU requires more than local previous law, for big and rich it is better of course and big companies are happy

Edited October 10, 2009 by vilas

[Herbal Influence 10]

I am ok with the EU on human rights.

Has been a long way from eye to eye ... and getting away from deathpenalty.

There have been hard times my anchestors had to learn from to form that ethics.

But, though I am German, I find it completely correct that the Czechs say: "We don't sign LT, as we don't want Germans to come and get their houses in the CZ back."

(EDIT: I don't know how "true" this point is - but primeminister Vaclac Klaus does progate so these days.)

Edited October 10, 2009 by Herbal Influence

[vilas 474]

and i am vote against too , but shame - in my country president signs it :/

for the same reason as Czechs,

it was Stalin and USSR who moved borders of Poland and others

not we, we cannot pay for Stalin decisions (of course if German will come to take home of someone there can be very violent situations in near future, for me home and place to live is saint, so i could kill someone who invades my home)

and we were pushed 300 kms to west by Stalin and Hitler decision to start war

i hope Czechs and Poles will get right to vote

YET it seems we don't have right and our goddamn liberals will vote "pro" , cause they are rich and above problems of other people

also strict gun control makes some things impossible for usual poor people and rich can piss on us :/

Edited October 10, 2009 by vilas

[vilas 474]

damn, our president signed it against will of many many people

no referendum, no voting - politicians decide before us :/

[big 0]

damn, our president signed it against will of many many people

no referendum, no voting - politicians decide before us :/

Wrong, money signs.

Politicians are nothing but a part used by those controlling the money.

[Baff1 0]

...

My right wing comment was aimed mainly at some of your comments, which I percieved as nationalistic (Britain > EU).

The are plenty of nationistic left wing movements. Communism for example.

In Britain there are both left and right wing political parties advocating EU independance.

It's a cross party issue, with both left and right wings divided and the ruling party (of whatever political persuasion) always in favour.

I'm British so obviously Britain > EU for me.

Likewise my family > Britain.

My first priorities are what is in the best intrests of my family, then my friends then my country.

The EU isn't really in the loyalty equation for me, I associate my self with the Commonwealth before the EU and Anglicanism before the EU also.

I do associate myself with Europe it's just that I feel a closer bond with certain other peoples of the world more often.

If I ever had to take sides, a position I clearly would like to avoid, the EU would not be the side I'd take.

Being forced to choose our co-operative partners once and for all greatly weakens us. It is to our advantage to be able to choose on a day by day, issue by issue, basis and also to be able to re-chose on whimsy too.

Flexibility is the key to it. Freedom.

I recognise that my country is in a very strong bargaining position with the other EU countries. We are a net importer, the largest net tax payer and the largest military and diplomatic contributer.

This doesn't make us > than the the EU, this makes us much less dependant on it than other member countries.

This also makes us pretty much immune to any punitive sanctions/reprisals if we leave.

And yes, I do feel no small amount of nationalistic pride in that circumstance. Am I wrong to?

If my football team is top of the league, should I feel ashamed or something also?

Of course not.

I'm proud that British people do not see the EU as their great saviour or as their route to global influence and prestige. I'm proud that we still see ourselves as capable of providing that element of nationalism for ourselves. (Not all of us do).

Giving all the other EU members equal say in our policy making is selling ourselves short. It's a bad deal for us. We lose from it overall.

Britain isn't > EU, it simply has more to lose by being a member of it than it has to gain in my opinion. More on offer to the other EU members than they are offering us in return.

I understand that the EU is all about independant nations co-operating together with each other, it's just that the EU isn't necessarily our prefered co-operative partners for a large number of matters.

We have other options

I don't need someone in Germany to help me vote on my national laws and domestic and international policies. It's kind of you all to offer to co-operate with us and all, only that isn't co-operation at all. That is called "interference".

And so, while there are many things EU members would benefit from co-operation on....

in Britain the EU has instead come to epitomise all those things they would not.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Baff1

[Is1980 10]

Giving all the other EU members equal say in our policy making is selling ourselves short. It's a bad deal for us. We lose from it overall.

Actually you win from it economically ( and it is not the daily mail saying this , it's the British analysts themselves ) and politically (TBH i've never seen the UK as a really independent country from the US foreign policy these last 30 years like say Russia or France is ... UK rarely says "no" them .. ) key countries like China , Russia , India , Brazil etc.. will negociate and take important decisions with the largest economical zones and political entities which are USA and EU in priority ..

Britain isn't > EU, it simply has more to lose by being a member of it than it has to gain in my opinion. More on offer to the other EU members than they are offering us in return.

You are probably right , but it is the same for the other rich european countries like Germany or France or Sweden etc.. , they pay more than what they receive , Europe is also about solidarity .

Indeed there are some concessions to make to help other countries of the zone to modernize , but the UK wins by far by being in it and trying to make the EU better , more democratic , transparent etc.. rather than voting out of it and become isolated . UK can lead the EU and help improve it .. it's not your ennemy , we are your friends ... it's not an union of submission but an active union where you play a leading role and defend your values and promote your interests , UK will not lose its independance by being in the EU , it's an union of sovereign states , federalists are a minority in Europe

For your trade , for your influence , and more importantly , for your future as a leading nation ( in 50+ years ) and not a lackey too weak to oppose the big players on the international scene .

One must remember Europe is very young , our money Euro is only a few years old , we don't even have a constitution yet , everything is to be done to better it , it's much easier to criticize it though , but one day will come where it will be a model of development , prosperity , and a stable political player . All the talks about "eurocrats" and "european soviet union" are not sound even if they can correspond to some realities of the current EU , there are many things wrong , but as an european i expect my British neighbours and other Europeans to work together to change this and improve it for the better

I understand that the EU is all about independant nations co-operating together with each other, it's just that the EU isn't necessarily our prefered co-operative partners for a large number of matters.

We have other options

I don't need someone in Germany to help me vote on my national laws and domestic and international policies. It's kind of you all to offer to co-operate with us and all, only that isn't co-operation at all. That is called "interference".

And so, while there are many things EU members would benefit from co-operation on....

in Britain the EU has instead come to epitomise all those things they would not.

Ok , this is the progaganda of the europhobe newspapers in the UK.. there is no way Gerrmans will vote to change your national law , there are competences of the EU in some areas , but the EU is rich of its differences , the UK government is sovereign and supreme in most areas of the Law , and even if there is a EU law that upsets the population or government of any member of the EU , this law can be rejected by your parliament . By the way , people voting EU law are also from the UK (as a member ) .

With the Lisbon treaty , it makes it easier to get out of the EU . Anyway , i know for certain that most europeans don't really care if UK wants to stay in or out of the EU , if you want out then fine , do what you want (and good luck economically out of the eurozone .. ) , what is annoying people is if you stay in the Europe , but without the heart .. like staying and trying to undermine it , delay decisions , slow the processes etc.. be a sort of virus of Europe , this could seriously annoy other Europeans , i mean it is already is with Cameron trying to suggest Klaus to delay the Czech ratification for months until he can access power in the UK ..

By the way , you are not the biggest net contributor , you are second slightly ahead of France and behind Germany , but in total spendng (not net spending ) you are third .

Edited October 13, 2009 by Is1980

[PogMoThoin 10]

Being Irish I can tell You that the only reason this was shot down the first time was in protest at the Governments failures. It was gladly accepted the second time when the opposition parties joined the campaign to ensure people voted for it the second time. We Irish owe alot to Europe and now realise this

[Baff1 0]

Actually you win from it economically ( and it is not the daily mail saying this , it's the British analysts themselves ) and politically (TBH i've never seen the UK as a really independent country from the US foreign policy these last 30 years like say Russia or France is ... UK rarely says "no" them .. ) key countries like China , Russia , India , Brazil etc.. will negociate and take important decisions with the largest economical zones and political entities which are USA and EU in priority ..

You are probably right , but it is the same for the other rich european countries like Germany or France or Sweden etc.. , they pay more than what they receive , Europe is also about solidarity .

Indeed there are some concessions to make to help other countries of the zone to modernize , but the UK wins by far by being in it and trying to make the EU better , more democratic , transparent etc.. rather than voting out of it and become isolated . UK can lead the EU and help improve it .. it's not your ennemy , we are your friends ... it's not an union of submission but an active union where you play a leading role and defend your values and promote your interests , UK will not lose its independance by being in the EU , it's an union of sovereign states , federalists are a minority in Europe

For your trade , for your influence , and more importantly , for your future as a leading nation ( in 50+ years ) and not a lackey too weak to oppose the big players on the international scene .

One must remember Europe is very young , our money Euro is only a few years old , we don't even have a constitution yet , everything is to be done to better it , it's much easier to criticize it though , but one day will come where it will be a model of development , prosperity , and a stable political player . All the talks about "eurocrats" and "european soviet union" are not sound even if they can correspond to some realities of the current EU , there are many things wrong , but as an european i expect my British neighbours and other Europeans to work together to change this and improve it for the better

Ok , this is the progaganda of the europhobe newspapers in the UK.. there is no way Gerrmans will vote to change your national law , there are competences of the EU in some areas , but the EU is rich of its differences , the UK government is sovereign and supreme in most areas of the Law , and even if there is a EU law that upsets the population or government of any member of the EU , this law can be rejected by your parliament . By the way , people voting EU law are also from the UK (as a member ) .

With the Lisbon treaty , it makes it easier to get out of the EU . Anyway , i know for certain that most europeans don't really care if UK wants to stay in or out of the EU , if you want out then fine , do what you want (and good luck economically out of the eurozone .. ) , what is annoying people is if you stay in the Europe , but without the heart .. like staying and trying to undermine it , delay decisions , slow the processes etc.. be a sort of virus of Europe , this could seriously annoy other Europeans , i mean it is already is with Cameron trying to suggest Klaus to delay the Czech ratification for months until he can access power in the UK ..

By the way , you are not the biggest net contributor , you are second slightly ahead of France and behind Germany , but in total spendng (not net spending ) you are third .

We are the biggest NET contributor.

Germany is the biggest GROSS contributor, followed by France and then Britain.

We don't gain from the EU economically.

Or at least, we don't gain more from trading in the EU than the rest of the EU gains from trading in the UK.

This means that we are better able to negotiate within the EU zone if we do so independently than we are if we do so from within it's structures.

In short, anything except a free trade agreement with the UK and the EU zone, damages the EU economy more than it damages the UK economy.

We don't have to be inside the EU to fully benefit from it economically.

In fact we get a worse deal, economically, because we are. We are failing to negotiate from the position of strength we are best placed to.

Europe doesn't have a constitution yet, you are correct.

Given that a constitution was outright rejected at the polls, it must never have one.

The problem is it's a corrupt instituition and despite the Federalists being a minority they are the minority in control.

Germans have already voted to change our national laws.

I have no idea why you think they or any other EU nationals might suddenly stop voting to change UK laws just because the Lisbon Treaty has been ratifyied.

UK government is sovereign and supreme in most areas of the Law

Where the word "most" is the problem. It has no democratic mandate for supremacy in anything at all here.

It is not the British people voting on EU laws that are enforceable in Britain that is the issue, it is the majority of non British people doing so. They have no right to.

Democracy is about consentual rule, and we have not given our consent to this arrangement.

While it is annoying for federalists that non-federalist attempt to stay in the EU and shape it in a way that they feel better represents their countries best intrests and keep it true to it's mandate, it is of great comfort to the rest of us that they do.

Just because a minority is attempting to derail the EU and turn it into something else doesn't mean they should be allowed to.

Taking a stand here and now peaceably can save a world war later on.

It's an Asquith moment. Appease the EU federalists or stand up to them.

Appeasing them won't stop anything. It just encourages them to go further.

Rather than those people who do not wish the EU to become a federation and a political institution with a constitution, an army and a foreign policy just leave the EU, how about those people who do seek to start a political union of independant nation states, just go ahead and do so.

No need to mess up the Economic Community just for that.

Rather than turn the EU into something it was never meant to be, why not just start something new in the image you want?

I think of course we all know the answer to that one, because it is wildly unpopular. Take away the threat of "poverty from lack of trade" and no one would stand for it at all, let alone pay for it.

When push comes to shove, your threats are empty. We have stood against a united Europe before. We have faced that poverty and we very proud to have done so.

If you want to play hardball with us, we can play that way.

No one takes kindly to threats, and threats are precisely what you are making. Where before we have been discussing a group of nations co-operating for national gain, we are now discussing penalising nations who do not secede to the EU's primacy.

Would the EU really stop trading freely with the UK if they left the EU?

No. Just like they haven't stop trading with Norway.

It's just an empty threat. It's carrot and stick only we have a mouthful of carrots already and the stick is merely ticklish.

What it does do in my opinion is sum up the underlying attitudes of the federailsts. We will join their political union, or they will use trade sanctions against us.

Once again, this is the path to war we are discussing.

None of us what that, least of all the other 27 nations.

I concur that Britain does not now, nor ever has, acted independantly of foriegn powers.

This I what I call the "little European" attitude. You aren't our only friends, and you aren't our best friends.

We like you loads and loads and loads. We respect you, feel you have much to offer us and that we have much to learn from you.

we also think we have stuff we can teach you and things to offer you too.

But we don't want to marry you.

And if we ever did to exclusively "need" to join a big trade bloc in order for our economy to prosper, the EU zone isn't the best choice for us.

You may feel that your own country is unable to negotiate with India, China, Brazil, the US and EU on favourable terms independantly, but here in the UK, that has been our forte for hundreds of years. We have well established links with all these countries already. (Well maybe not Brasil). And many more besides.

It is that very same independance that our prosperity comes from. We make our money as brokers, not suppliers. If there are two giant markets, we stand to gain most from being in the middle of the two not a subsiduary of either.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Baff1

[trickster1982 10]

By the way , you are not the biggest net contributor , you are second slightly ahead of France and behind Germany , but in total spendng (not net spending ) you are third .

Regardless, we still pay far more in than we get back & the cons far outweigh the pros. Believe me theres more people in Britain that want to be out of the EU than those that want to be in it & if our politicians would let us out, we would! The main reason people are getting so angry is because of this conspiracy among the ruling class of both Britain & other EU countries not to let the people have a say on whether we go in or not! If its so great then why are they so scared of going down the democratic route & putting it to the people? its condescending of them to think we "dont understand" :mad:

[GoOB 0]

We are the biggest NET contributor.

Germany is the biggest GROSS contributor, followed by France and then Britain.

Then the BBC should probably correct their numbers. Because it would seem that, according to them, Germany is the largest net contributor - Partly, but not only due to the rebate that was established for the UK in 1984, which as the BBC site states, was not the brightest of time periods for British economy.

[Prydain 1]

I have enjoyed seeing how wildly inaccurate peoples opinions of the EU are.

For someone like me who is polite, I thank Europe for giving me and my nation even greater prosperity and the EU bodies that support job creation, science investment, infrastructure investment, social mobility support, education investment, economic security, restrictions on dodgy imported foreign goods, a collective advance towards green energy, the ease of supra-national trade, a stronger stance within the global economy, energy security, immigration co-operation, and the various other law, political and social bodies that make life better for all Europeans. Being polite means recognising the good of a system that has a greater future role for Europe and seeing what this system does for me and saying thank you, not just dismissing it for emotional reasons like nationalism or mental health problems like patriotism.

[Is1980 10]

We are the biggest NET contributor.

Germany is the biggest GROSS contributor, followed by France and then Britain.

We don't gain from the EU economically.

Or at least, we don't gain more from trading in the EU than the rest of the EU gains from trading in the UK.

I'm sorry Baff , but Germany is the biggest net contributor . In 2008 , it's Sweden who was the biggest contributor to EU budget . Your country has an industry and agriculture , but not large ones , it's not a big exporting country for other EU members , your economy is based on Finance and Services since Thatcher which is your strong point, London is the first financial place in Europe if not the world just behind New York .

What the EU gain from the UK is of course important for her , but the EU doesn't " Need" British money to survive , your money essentially helps less developped countries of the EU to get to standard and is important for the EU budget but not necessary . Most Europeans (i talk about the people , not governments ) would prefer the British to stay in the EU because we are all Europeans historically

Also , what you call a threat isn't a threat , it's a fact that in the current conjuncture of the the world economy , a UK alone would be less profitable than a UK within the Eurozone with its advantages , the big corporations and interests in the UK that are pushing for staying in the EU do it for this reason (economical interest ) , the financial crisis would have been much worse for you if you were outside the Eurozone , it's some British analysts who said that , i don't invent it .

If you vote out of the EU , Europe will not make war or punish you , it's not true to say this , it's simply that being out of an organization is logically losing the priviledges of being in it ... As for the comparison with Norway , it's not founded in logic .. Norway is a country with huge natural reserves (gas) and very small population .. Norway is the most expensive country in the world to live in .. they can afford it because they are not numerous and their country is rich , they have very few poor people .. it's a Totally different situation in the UK , a large country (infrastructures to finance etc) with large population (public spending) and large ambitions (army to finance etc) and a large debt by inhabitant ...

Europe doesn't have a constitution yet, you are correct.

Given that a constitution was outright rejected at the polls, it must never have one.

The problem is it's a corrupt instituition and despite the Federalists being a minority they are the minority in control.

Germans have already voted to change our national laws.

I have no idea why you think they or any other EU nationals might suddenly stop voting to change UK laws just because the Lisbon Treaty has been ratifyied.

ok here i can only disagree respectfully , when you say something is corrupt , in this case , the whole EU , this is wildly exagerated , yes there is some money mis-spent , some high wages of MP ( but as we saw there was the scandal in UK MP expenses , so it's not a disease of the EU only ) and technocrats , there things that need to be addressed in the EU of course , there are some excesses and it is always possible to spend the money in a more effective and fair way but when something seems wrong , the best way is to fix it , you can criticize it all day , it won't fix by itself . You cannot build such a transnational organization with everything spot on in the first attempt .. it's logical there are always things to improve , conflict of interests etc.. , not just in the EU , but also in your , mine or any country . It doesn't mean the project is doomed to failure IMO . The people that change European laws (not UK laws ) are also elected by British citizens , yes it happens some are Germans or non-British if you will . But European laws that are deemed unpractical or unnacceptable by your parliament can be removed , it's not like it is a Diktat of Brussel and that you lose your sovereignity .

Where the word "most" is the problem. It has no democratic mandate for supremacy in anything at all here.

It is not the British people voting on EU laws that are enforceable in Britain that is the issue, it is the majority of non British people doing so. They have no right to.

Democracy is about consentual rule, and we have not given our consent to this arrangement.

Here i totally agree with you . Giving the British people the right to have a word on this is important . Even if there is the risk that the answer of the voters will essentially be a sanction of the governement's policy , rather than an educated (or the best ) answer about all the implications (political , economical , strategical , historical , social etc...) for the country to stay or not to stay in the EU .

We saw this when the Dutch and French got to vote , they sanctionned their government .. yet when they are regularly polled by newspapers , majority of Dutch and French are pro-European and see it as a potentially positive project for the long term future .

Rather than those people who do not wish the EU to become a federation and a political institution with a constitution, an army and a foreign policy just leave the EU, how about those people who do seek to start a political union of independant nation states, just go ahead and do so.

For the moment and for the majority of the members , EU will be exactly that ... an union of independant nation states .. Federalist are those who want even more integration , i think Germany's current governement looks positively at the federalist project , but there is a very long way to go to achieve this , not many countries of the EU want this yet ...

But i understand your concern , when you see that there will be a president of the EU , EU foreign policy MP etc... but this does not mean it will be a federal state any time soon , it does mean that the EU in its current form is ungovernable and needed some tools to count more as a political entity . A Political entity that is still an union of sovereign states who can object or reject anything the EU votes potentially .

Rather than turn the EU into something it was never meant to be, why not just start something new in the image you want?

I think of course we all know the answer to that one, because it is wildly unpopular. Take away the threat of "poverty from lack of trade" and no one would stand for it at all, let alone pay for it.

EU since the 80s , then Masstricht , then Nice , then Lisbon has always thrived for more integration and always aimed to be a political entity , one must be really naive to sign Maastricht and still think EU is only about trade ... i mean yea , in the 70's when you were the "sick man of Europe" , you were happy to get the benefits of being in the EEC , but now that you "think" you are in a better situation , you don't want to pay for anyone anymore ... Well fair enough .. we understand UK never embraced Europe basically .. but it's difficult to say EU isn't popular in continental Europe , it is ..

There is no threat of poverty , there is a reality that the EU is the most powerful economical power in the world with the USA and the first place for trade and business . If you are part of it , it's obvious that you are more powerful economically and politically than if you are not , difficult to argue with this . But i want to stress that i perfectly understand your desire to stay totally uninvolved in the EU and being out of it , i'm not arguing against this , but merely pointing that it's not a very convincing argument that the BNP and UKIP use when they say "oh , i slept at night in the 1970's , but then i woke up this morning in 2009 and suddenly found EU is not only about business , we've been robbed etc.. " , i mean come on ... this is taking people for fools , British MP since 25 years know perfectly well what was the aim and vocation of the EU . If you want the EU to be only about business , then we can still create different levels of membership ... this would enable those who want to go further (like we did for the Euro currency which is a great success .. ) to do it .

When push comes to shove, your threats are empty. We have stood against a united Europe before. We have faced that poverty and we very proud to have done so.

If you want to play hardball with us, we can play that way.

No one takes kindly to threats, and threats are precisely what you are making. Where before we have been discussing a group of nations co-operating for national gain, we are now discussing penalising nations who do not secede to the EU's primacy.

Would the EU really stop trading freely with the UK if they left the EU?

No. Just like they haven't stop trading with Norway.

It's just an empty threat. It's carrot and stick only we have a mouthful of carrots already and the stick is merely ticklish.

What it does do in my opinion is sum up the underlying attitudes of the federailsts. We will join their political union, or they will use trade sanctions against us.

Once again, this is the path to war we are discussing.

None of us what that, least of all the other 27 nations.

Ok here , i really felt like aggressivity and hard nationalist tone tainted by a sort of fear that EU wants to crush you at all costs or something , there's no threat really , there is a risk of isolation and economical decline on the long term , its not the EU threatening anything , it's up to you to evaluate properly the benefits and disadvantages of being part of the UE and then choose your destiny , there won't be "retaliations" against UK if you vote out of the EU , it's the sovereign choice of a free country , besides EU has no interests whatsoever to alienate Britain . No one will use sanctions against you or force you to stay ...

Yes , EU would prefer UK part of EU because of : Influence , Trade place , Joint first army of Europe in budget and numbers (with France ) , Nuclear power , Historical bound with other Europeans (values , laws etc.. , differences are minor ..)

BUT , UK outside the EU is not a existential problem for the EU , it will make EU institutions evolve at a faster pace , negative on the short term would be that EU would gain less income , so would not be able to be as generous as it is now with the other less developped members . EU would have less credibility militarily , politically and economically on the short-medium term without Britain , that's for sure , but it would still work , and on the long term , 50 years or more , things will be very different , economical matters evolve EXTREMELY fast nowadays and the EU would still remain a very powerful economical and political entity with or without the UK .

I concur that Britain does not now, nor ever has, acted independantly of foriegn powers.

This I what I call the "little European" attitude. You aren't our only friends, and you aren't our best friends.

We like you loads and loads and loads. We respect you, feel you have much to offer us and that we have much to learn from you.

we also think we have stuff we can teach you and things to offer you too.

But we don't want to marry you.

Ok here i respect your opinion , although there is much to say about it (would be too long ) , but i respect it

You may feel that your own country is unable to negotiate with India, China, Brazil, the US and EU on favourable terms independantly, but here in the UK, that has been our forte for hundreds of years. We have well established links with all these countries already. (Well maybe not Brasil). And many more besides.

It is that very same independance that our prosperity comes from. We make our money as brokers, not suppliers. If there are two giant markets, we stand to gain most from being in the middle of the two not a subsiduary of either.

I understand this , the same applies for countries like Germany or France who also have glorious history , comparable economical ties with various countries and prosperity potential for the future (less public debt , big industry , auto sufficient for food , better infrastructures like transports , health etc.. .

But you see that's the whole idea of the European project , make of Europe which was an area of war and hostile competition into an area of peace and mutual prosperity . Sure it requires a bit of solidarity , patience and optimism , if you think only about short term profit and feel threatened , it's understandable that the EU is less appealing . But the world is changing very quickly and the big interests pushing for Europe in the UK have all well understood this . Personally , UK in or out in the Europe is of no real importance from the point of view of a continental EU citizen (although as an anglophile i would prefer them in because of the cultural and symbolic aspect ) , what is really important for me is that we know the answer very quickly for we can move on and improve that EU , make it more democratic , make it fairer and closer to the concerns of the citizens , make it stronger ... and i know that it will not happen in my lifetime , because such projects take a long time to build , EU is very young , Rome wasn't build in a day although the comparison is bad since it's not an empire but a functionnal and prosperous union that we want to build . cheers ;)

Edited October 17, 2009 by Is1980

[Is1980 10]

Regardless, we still pay far more in than we get back & the cons far outweigh the pros. Believe me theres more people in Britain that want to be out of the EU than those that want to be in it & if our politicians would let us out, we would! The main reason people are getting so angry is because of this conspiracy among the ruling class of both Britain & other EU countries not to let the people have a say on whether we go in or not! If its so great then why are they so scared of going down the democratic route & putting it to the people? its condescending of them to think we "dont understand" :mad:

Yes , i understand this perfectly mate

IMHO , politicians in UK are afraid to submit the vote to the people , because they know what would be the answer . The press in general (not only Ruppert Murdoch press )in the UK is quite europhobe as well which has quite an influence on public's opinion . The few times they inform people about Europe , it is to highlight negative things

But your governement has ratified Lisbon because they have access to informations and value issues that most common people do not realize or cannot properly evaluate its complex implications . I agree it's condescending but also true IMHO . things considered as a progress in some countries like death penalty abolition , women abortion , free contraception (condoms, pills ) etc.. were never popular in their time and if there was a referendum on it , people would've voted no . If you made a referendum in USA whether they should get into WWI , they would have never come . So IMHO referendum is an important democratic tool , but not necessarily the best one to take the wiser decisions for one country or society although it's probably preferable to choose something wrong but something which a majority agrees with rather than something divisive and misunderstood by too many people

I hope the UK will get their referendum because it is dangerous if the people is against such a fundamental and historical development for the UK and such a great people deserve a democratic say . I also think that everyone that wants to get out from the EU should do it now before we carry on because afterwards it will be too late , and it's never good to have an union with reluctant members . Lisbon treaty has made it easier for members to get out .

Edited October 18, 2009 by Is1980

[vilas 474]

big respect for Czechs for defending own interests and strong negotiations, shame that my country goverment always care about others, not own citizens

[trickster1982 10]

big respect for Czechs for defending own interests and strong negotiations, shame that my country goverment always care about others, not own citizens

Unfortunately not, the Czechs have caved in to EU pressure & given up the fight against the treaty :(

I hear Canada is quite a nice place...

[vilas 474]

i would love to live in Canada :)

i heard there are normal people and good conditions

or Skandinavia , i heard people are very honest there

but sad that Czechs gave up, cause they were only who wanted guarantee to save their after-war property

this treaty for some of us here in central europe may be big problem

cause property issues were not regulated in mess of 89-90 communism fall and till today

for people whose borders never moved it is not a problem

but if someone lives when there were Germany 70 years ago it can be problem

cause may be case for property of land/house

Soviets pushed Polish borders at 200-300 km to west

whole Poland was moved to west and , Soviets took our historic territory and "gave" us German territory

now some people may loose house/land cause someone from Germany may take it back

but of course it is fault of corrupted politicians of our countries that they did nothing to stabilize life of usual people on west of my country

it is not fault of someone that soviet troops brought him 60 years ago "now you live here, it is your home"

and now his grandsons may stay homeless ?

no way

i don't know what will happen if there will be such cases,

i haven't seen any skinhead for 20 years, but i am afraid i will see soon, when this treaty effects will take it's way

i am afraid of some people became homeless, violence

noone wants to give his home back, cause "70 years ago there was war" and borders were moved, completely apart from Hitler act of aggression

many things were not fixed by politicians , our politicians and we so angry that we had no right to vote, just signed without us

[Is1980 10]

:)

My brother lives in Canada (Montreal ) , it's a nice and very beautiful country with open minded people and cosmopolitan population (i add this , cause someone said in previous page he was afraid of immigrants ) , but the wages are slightly lower than in France (but goods , house bills also slightly less expensive ) and the country has its own problems like any European country . But grass is always greener far away for some .. :)

The Czechs didn't not "give up to EU "pressure" " , if they wanted to be out of Europe , they could ... if they still want out of Europe they can ... .. If they stay in Europe , it's because they see their interest in it , there is no other reason (their parliament is ready to ratify and their economy also relies on exports ) , Czechs like other EU members have benefited from Europe until now .

The story about fall of Communism and Germans potentially claiming back their land is understandable , but it has nothing to do with the European project really ,and could be addressed very easily with EU laws if it's a major concern for the Czechs and Polish ...

If anything , Europe can protect the citizens from wars and conflicts on the continent and make it easier to find agreements between neighbours , it's its vocation . Except maybe if you prefer to have an Europe with nationalistic countries in the future , for example in case of economic crisis , but then things could get more serious , but ok , to each his opinion .

Edited October 19, 2009 by Is1980

[vilas 474]

The story about fall of Communism and Germans potentially claiming back their land is understandable

there already been accidents that people have trials in court to lost home cause german succesors (grandsons) are taking back with lawyers

and hell, many of my friends voted NO for europe, my family voted NO too

i live here and i know problems of family in west of Poland (Szczecin)

Edited October 19, 2009 by vilas