A Statement about BIS. What do you think?

[ScorpionGuard 10]

Personally I’m starting to become a little cheesed off.

Watching the videos of the new features VBS2 will contain blows my mind. Put it very simply. There awesome. Real-Time editing, Vehicle interaction and advanced AI amongst other features promise to deliver a soldier simulation far in advance to ArmA. As well as being mouth watering for "game2" it has also slightly annoyed me. Why should we, the paying customer who gave BI the cash flow in order to produce the original VBS, be relegated below military contracts. To me ArmA is starting to feel just like a big BETA test for VBS2, letting the paying customer play a, lets face it, unpolished game. This is apparent with the many features promised left out, huge differences between different published releases and even half made features such as the Javelin Missile launcher. I, and perhaps others, am beginning to feel alienated by BI, distinctly rejected in favor of the worlds military, who at best see VBS as a niche training method, where as we, the ArmA/OFP community see it as a untouchable forbidden fruit.

The question that was put forward has cross my mind in the past. But I will wait for the community reply.

[Mike84 1]

Well, don't forget that BIS makes Arma2 and BIA makes VBS2. I always assumed there wouldn't be a lot of mutual back-scratching between the two, but the recent update about Operation Arrowhead proves otherwise, and I was quite surprised by that. I guess that BIS just makes the game engine, and fiddles in some addons, and then sells it to BIA who then put in their own addons they've created over the years. And now it's going the other way around I guess.

Btw, don't forget that some mod making teams who put features into VBS (like COC did with the VBS arty module), and the reason why you didn't see mods like COC arty come from OFP to Arma was because some (or most) mod making teams asked money for their code, and BIS wasn't willing to pay.

[froggyluv 2135]

If VBS2 blows your mind then buy VBS2.

One costs the price of a small used car while the other, a movie with snacks.

Really this argument is played out beyond death :(

[randir14 10]

It's business. Why should the military pay thousands of dollars for VBS2 if they could get the same features in ArmA 2 for 50 bucks?

[MehMan 0]

Because they won't get the same features that you get in VBS2 and you won't get the kind of support you get with VBS2 and you won't get an instructor tool in ArmA2 and and and and. You get the picture. VBS2 is different, it's a training tool, not entertainment. Get over it already.

Jeez, some people.

[ScorpionGuard 10]

Thank you for your your replies Mike84 & froggyluv. froggyluv I need you to read the statement again. The subject I'm shooting for here is. How we in the BIS community can advance the game play in ArmA II without the $1500 price tag that comes with VBS I-II. I'm speaking very high qulity addons here. Such as fully functional ships (Cruisers, CVN's, Destroyers, Frigate's LHD's etc). Ways to make ArmA II + tacticly sound for use that wish for the simulation side of ArmA line. Thanks.

[kklownboy 43]

start modding.

[ScorpionGuard 10]

randir14 & MehMan thank you for your replies. Again. What we can do to bring the game play more like VBS I-II for does of use that love the simulation view of the game?

[sparks50 0]

Ill say OFP/ARMA/ARMA2 can easily compete with the (hyped)VBS systems, if you factor in community made addons.

Id love to see BIS learning more from BIA and how they do things for the military.

BIA + BIS making a game closer together would be a win-win situation for all. I doubt many VBS 2s are sold anyway, despite its big price tag I just dont think it has the potential to sell to cover the costs like a commercial game has.

BTW youll get this reply for free, no reason to thank me.

Edited September 12, 2009 by sparks50

[ScorpionGuard 10]

Thanks for your reply kklownboy. But what of those players that get in to the game to do if they themselves can't mod. They can do like me and hire a team. But your basic working gamer don't have that kind of money. What say you?

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

Thank you sparks50 for your reply. I in total agreemnet.

[W0lle 1050]

If you want VBS2 that much and feel left out then go ahead and buy it. Hopefully you're not too disappointed about the "advanced AI" and stuff that blows your mind.

Edit: And no, there are no "fully functional ships" in VBS2 either. High quality addons - which one you talk about? The ADF vehicles which are ported straight from VBS1? Or the planes with no cockpits at all? Really most people obviously have no idea how VBS2 really is. Yes it's a very good training tool for military customers, for entertainment purposes it... does the job, but those who are already complaining about ArmA2 content would be disappointed much very about the non existant eye candy.

Honestly get over that "VBS2 is the uber-realistic, full blown simulator that is the answer to all our prayers" and concentrate on what you already have and will have sooner or later for free.

Edited September 12, 2009 by W0lle

[bascule42 10]

I bought a stick the other day. Imagine my disappointment when I realised it didn't have the moon on the end. :(

[BeerHunter 0]

One of the BIGGEST differences between ArmA2 and VBS2 is the way they are played.

ArmA2 is played like a game and disobeying an order or running off somewhere to do your own thing is run of the mill.

VBS2 is a military sim and if you are told to do something and you don't , you suffer the wrath of the OIC of the sim exercise.

Apart from the price differential which gives you , as mentioned , at least a damn manual so you know what all the commands mean and do , there's enough realism and addons to make ArmA2 more than most players could handle if they played it as a sim rather than a glorified FPS.

[ScorpionGuard 10]

Ok. I'm done. No one reading to day. The replies I thank all for. But only one or two people gave answers to the question. The had nothing to do with the question at hand. Just; we don't know so I'm going to write what I think you talking about. No where in the post I said I don't hav VBS II. The issue is how can we as a commuity can trans the core idea to ArmA II moving forward.

[cjsoques 0]

start modding.

I'm really sick of this statement...jeez

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------

Honestly get over that "VBS2 is the uber-realistic, full blown simulator that is the answer to all our prayers" and concentrate on what you already have and will have sooner or later for free.

Are we talking about free content with the patches like in the OFP days???!!!

[froggyluv 2135]

@ScorpionGuard: Ok, sorry if I misundestood you. Your OP was mostly just a rant against BI for treating the Arma2 players as second fiddle to VBS2. If your intent was just to brainstorm ideas to have better access to more realistic units and functions, you probably should have left out that quote.

[W0lle 1050]

Are we talking about free content with the patches like in the OFP days???!!!

No I'm talking about the free community created content. I have no idea when or if at all, BIS will add free content in future patches.

[cjsoques 0]

No I'm talking about the free community created content. I have no idea when or if at all, BIS will add free content in future patches.

Oh okay cool.

In regards to the OP...I'm not quite sure if I know what he/she is getting at but:

I am loving all the addons that people are coming with and all the addons are increasing the game multiple times over with each new addons. However, it would be really incredibely awesome if BIS developed some way of managing all these modifications in a very standard/universal manner.

I'm not talking about a mod-manager, but a special website/repository that can manage the addons and ensure consistency and quality control...almost like official endorsed addons if you will. I don't really know what I mean but maybe something similar to how it is done in the Sims 3 exchange?

That will allow quality addons implemented into ARMA2 to be categorized in one repository

[ScorpionGuard 10]

Thank you cjsoques for your reply. Very good idea. Thank you for your post.

[Tankbuster 1744]

start modding.

Worst post ever.

[Maddmatt 1]

VBS2 isn't as great as some people make out. All the features are geared towards training, not gameplay. The graphics are worse (no fancy shaders), some features like FLIR are coming in the ArmA 2 expansion (Operation Arrowhead). It doesn't include any decent missions, the community is tiny. Good luck finding a decent online game or a large group to play it with.

[That guy 10]

Originally Posted by BigglesTrevor View Post

Personally I’m starting to become a little cheesed off.

Watching the videos of the new features VBS2 will contain blows my mind. Put it very simply. There awesome. Real-Time editing, Vehicle interaction and advanced AI amongst other features promise to deliver a soldier simulation far in advance to ArmA. As well as being mouth watering for "game2" it has also slightly annoyed me. Why should we, the paying customer who gave BI the cash flow in order to produce the original VBS, be relegated below military contracts. To me ArmA is starting to feel just like a big BETA test for VBS2, letting the paying customer play a, lets face it, unpolished game. This is apparent with the many features promised left out, huge differences between different published releases and even half made features such as the Javelin Missile launcher. I, and perhaps others, am beginning to feel alienated by BI, distinctly rejected in favor of the worlds military, who at best see VBS as a niche training method, where as we, the ArmA/OFP community see it as a untouchable forbidden fruit.

Oh boy, where to begin. Well first off it seems that is post is its self quite old, as it only bitches about ArmA1.

If you feel "betrayed" by arma then feel free to bugger off. if the the product does not meet your unreasonably high standards why play it?

It just really chafes me to listen to people sit and bitch and bitch and bitch about how games devs (not just BIS) have "betrayed them" or some other BS because some little feature that was not even in the games design document was not implemented. In the case of arma, people just seemed to pull stuff out of the air about features that were not even planned on (one of the unfortunate side affects of a game being labeled the "ultimate combat sim").

I counted the names in the credits for both arma and arma II, and they were respectively ~170 for arma (granted i did this a long time ago) and ~200 for arma II. that may sound like a lot, but that probably includes all the voice actors, guys at idea games, advertisers, publishers, tech support from nvidea, Microsoft and such. I am going to make an uneducated guess that the actual full time core dev team for Arma II is some where around 70 individuals.

for reference (if the hype is to be believed) the art team alone for OFPDR is 70 people.

In the game Cryostasis, the dev team was a scant 20 guys, despite hundreds of names on the credits

I read somewhere that the dev team for assassins creed II was/is 500 some people

So what does this mean? BIS has limited resources. It can only do a few things at once. It as a for profit institution cannot really afford to spend 6 months working on getting a fully functional CLU or tank FCS into game or small but complex knick knack A or B.

would BIS like to include most of the suggestions that we make into the game? I'm sure they would, but they just dont have the manpower available to them to do so (for a commercial project).

now for VBS that is a different story. It is not for entertainment. it is for practical use training. It is actually important to have certain features in the game. if an org says it needs feature A B and C then it becomes practical for the company to spend however long it takes to get those features implemented.

I for one think BIS is pretty good at not over hyping or over exaggerating their own products. There is an air of honesty that i like (unlike most other game devs ::coughcodemastercough::). For example in the interview with Jan Pazrak about OA, hes was pretty straight forward saying there is some other stuff in their that i dont want to promise yet, instead of spilling the whole bag, and failing to deliver later

So, in conclusion, alot of people on these forums are victims of thier own un reasonably high standards. this is the #1 absolute hardest genre to make games for, bar none. So do your selves a favor and just relax a bit

OP, I am not aiming this at you, its just a general message :)

[Bulldogs 10]

I'm really starting to get cheesed off. I bought some speakers from the $5 bargin bin at my local games store and they don't sound anything like the ones at the cinema.

[binkster 0]

It's business. Why should the military pay thousands of dollars for VBS2 if they could get the same features in ArmA 2 for 50 bucks?

Im not a 100% sure but I think ofp/arma1/arma2 cannot be used as a commercial training tool. Im sure there is some agreement somewhere either on the box/manual or even when you install it but I still can be wrong.

[Bulldogs 10]

You just have to see them as two different products being developed by 2 different sectors. While they are similar they are not the same.

The development costs/time put into VBS2 is recupperated through the high price tag, you can't expect the same costs to go into a product that will sell for a fraction of the price.