jw custom 56 Posted December 23, 2009 Yapab: Its not a single tree or a single location. Its all barr trees (pine, spruce) and all forests - small and big. They stutter the crap out of me compared to betas. I switch between them both back and forth and its like night and day - unfortunatelly. It saddens me big time. Utes for example. All places where trees are lumped together i get stutter. Change back to beta at the same places and its smooth as silk. That little hill by the Utes runway for example with all barr trees. But even smaller clusters of barr trees will have the same effect. Real weird and sad - for me at least.Ticket coming. I can't repro this, just flew along the coast line, from sea into land, from land into see and over forest in high and low altitude. It's really sad you now got this problem, i wonder what does it :( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex72 1 Posted December 23, 2009 I can't repro this, just flew along the coast line, from sea into land, from land into see and over forest in high and low altitude.It's really sad you now got this problem, i wonder what does it :( Thank you for commenting it. I ticketed it over at DH: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/7283 Alex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yapab 10 Posted December 23, 2009 I will run some tests and check the burr tree's today, also can u take a picture or video of the tree's as I dont know what a burr tree is.... a location where speed is very bad would also help. Also is the FPS low when this happens or is it more stutter from loading textures etc? Yapa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jw custom 56 Posted December 23, 2009 some say burr some say barr... is it the pine trees ? :p Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex72 1 Posted December 23, 2009 I will run some tests and check the burr tree's today, also can u take a picture or video of the tree's as I dont know what a burr tree is.... a location where speed is very bad would also help.Also is the FPS low when this happens or is it more stutter from loading textures etc? Yapa Trees that have barr instead of leafs (sort of leafs). Barr Spruce Pine Repro mission useless because all you need is a unit looking around in 1.05, and then do the same in the last beta. ;) And yes it seems to stutter more than actual lag. I havent got around to FPS test it yet. But heavy stutter is there. All BIS needs to do is to revert the trees to as they were before 1.05 and it should be solved. This is ofcourse unless they made some significant new thing with them that is better than before somehow, and we who have stutter just have to take it and buy new computers. Or BIS makes sure there is an in-game option so that we can choose new or old style. Because i could play the game very good before 1.05. Alex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bensdale 0 Posted December 23, 2009 ai :o i have totally misunderstood your trees problem and by accident voted for your dev. ticket. I have absolutely no problem with the conifers trees (looks wery smooth). rather the deciduous trees and bushes are the performance killer for me. Sorry alex72 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex72 1 Posted December 23, 2009 ai :o i have totally misunderstood your trees problem and by accident voted for your dev. ticket.I have absolutely no problem with the conifers trees (looks wery smooth). rather the deciduous trees and bushes are the performance killer for me. Sorry alex72 No worries. As the voting is more for features is what i heard. The bug reporting is all read and checked. ;) I had the yellow trees and bushes slowing me down before and the barr trees was very smooth to me - now ALL trees either slows me down or make me stutter. So its a total disaster i guess you can call it. Argh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yapab 10 Posted December 23, 2009 Ok that looks more like grass, actually I dont remember seeing such tree's in ARMA2.... altho I'm not a big flora buff. If you still could provide your testing area location on the map or a screen shot of this particular tree it would help in testing as it could be something else in that area causing the slow down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jw custom 56 Posted December 23, 2009 If you still could provide your testing area location on the map or a screen shot of this particular tree it would help in testing as it could be something else in that area causing the slow down. According to Alex72 it doesn't matter where you are on the map aslong as there's those "needle" trees( christmas trees :p ), so just take a walk in the forest :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yapab 10 Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) Ok done a few tests with the last beta patch and then upgraded to 1.05. Hmm kinda band news for you Alex as I dont experience the same "stutter" or loss of performance in any Forest/tree location. Placed myself in various locations around the map with various tree's and bushes, there was no stuttering or performance problems, however leafy green tree's still cost a bit of GPU power. Also on a side note, there is about 1fps increase in version 1.05 vs the last 1.04 Beta patch, this is good! (I run 1680x1050 with "Normal AA" and most settings High with some Very High) EDIT: Alex I noticed your GPU (8800GTS 320mb) is quite dated and pretty low end these days, have you thought about upgrading it? And yes I know you are saying that before 1.05 it was running fine, but maybe something has changed which is stressing the memory more and 320mb is just not enough? This is only a guess.... you could run Riva Tuner and check how much video memory is being used. Lack of memory would explain stuttering but little FPS loss. My setting's and system uses almost 780MB of video memory.... Yapa Edited December 23, 2009 by Yapab more info Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kklownboy 43 Posted December 23, 2009 yeah no "stutter" for me, game runs smooth. Maybe a Driver/AF issue? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabrizio_t 58 Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) Tested v.1.05 today. First observation At first i thought infantry AI combat was fine, closely resembling 60819 AI behaviour. Then i started seeing some wrong behaviour. Here is some footage based on my test-case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dceB29o2IN0 0m00s-2m00s All is fine. Units moving, units covering. Some suppressive fire. 2m00s-2m30s The group moves into a sort of small courtyard enclosed by a wooden fence. All units are bunching in these few meters, very dangerous. As you can see just seconds after the group takes a direct RPG shot. Only the unrealistically low splash damage saves most units in this circumstance. 2m30s-2m50s Group moves behind a house and a nearby fence. Units are bunching again, with each unit doing a lot of unneeded position adjustments. It seems they can't find the optimal "formation" position, maybe due to leader moving around and changing direction? 2m50s-end Here is the BIG problem: group leader decides to go on his own ... It looks like he's withdrawing or fleeing, but "allowfleeing" was set to false for all units. Leader goes away and his men are not interested in following him. They hold ground and keep adjusting position. 1 minute later leader is hundred meters away and the rest of the group is still there and being flanked. Look at the last seconds of the video and you'll see the strange path taken by the leader. Second observation Often you'll see units perfectly aligning in formation while in combat mode and being fired upon, ignoring nearby cover. That's not effective nor good looking. Please make units of AI-led groups not being so picky about keeping their position in formation (it wasn't in 60819). If there's some kind of cover at close range (20-30m) please make them use it. Please make units in combat mode generally avoid staying in the middle roads, they're easy targets. Here is some footage showing this second problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrOdEe9YbcY Edited December 23, 2009 by fabrizio_T Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jw custom 56 Posted December 23, 2009 Here is the BIG problem: group leader decides to go on his own ... It looks like he's withdrawing or fleeing, but "allowfleeing" was set to false for all units. Leader goes away and his men are not interested in following him. They hold ground and keep adjusting position. 1 minute later leader is hundred meters away and the rest of the group is still there and being flanked. Look at the last seconds of the video and you'll see the strange path taken by the leader. Kinda similar when your playing as leader yourself and decides to withdraw then your AI mates often decides to stay a little longer before following you which often leads to fallen team mates. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabrizio_t 58 Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) Kinda similar when your playing as leader yourself and decides to withdraw then your AI mates often decides to stay a little longer before following you which often leads to fallen team mates. Yes, that happened with previous versions, most notably with 6XXXX builds, but in 1.05 i found units quite "responsive" and quick in following leader, except for the case i highlighted here. It's a very strange problem because units just definetely stop following the leader (for minutes), didn't saw this happening before. Edited December 23, 2009 by fabrizio_T Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
froggyluv 2130 Posted December 23, 2009 Tested v.1.05 today.Units are bunching again, with each unit doing a lot of unneeded position adjustments. ] I wish there was a program telling you why AI is doing what its doing in terms of those constant adjustments. It always seemed to me that they are actually doing too much rather than too little. Meaning, if I were playing against a human squad, they would probably break formation, get too working cover (angled against me) and stay there firing until a threat came at them from a different direction or one of us is dead. As it is, they often do get to cover, but then do a lot of stand/crouch/stand/prones, leave cover for no apparent reason and then take aim at a seemingly random direction. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bouben 3 Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) Please make units in combat mode generally avoid staying in the middle roads, they're easy targets. Yes, make them NOT STOPPING at all, until they're in cover. As someone from special forces said here on BI forums, bounding overwatch is from cover to cover so stopping after few meters in open to cover your buddy is not a proper way. Also, units in combat should not be standing at all. They should always prefer to be low, for example crouched also behind trees, when they always tend to stand up. On the other hand, units which are laying behind sandbags are useless too. Edited December 23, 2009 by Bouben Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fabrizio_t 58 Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) If you make units not stopping in ArmA 2 you'll end with all your units dead very quickly in my opinion. AI units can't fire while moving, who's going to protect their movement? They won't ever be able to run faster than a bullet. In reality pretty much anything, terrain included, can give you some degree of cover. Specialists know that pretty well. Problem is in a game such as ArmA 2 terrain is simplified geometry and you can't draw as many objects as in reality. So you deal with a artificial scarce cover situation, different than reality. That means that often your cover is too far to be reached safely or simply it's absent or not enough for a group. What should AI units do in such a situation? I think that all-in-all they're doing the right thing: bounding overwatch when possible, simple leapfrogging in most cases. So you have units alternately moving and providing cover, the latter ones effectively giving suppression fire and diverting enemy attention. I'm absolutely fine with it, as long as it's working as intended. In build 60819 it was effective. Later builds had problems that i think were related to formation "tightening" routines or possibily "take cover" routines overlapping/interfering with existing movement code. What was disturbing me with latest betas was that too many units were moving at once, so just a few of them were effectively able to cover others and lay suppression fire. Also units were passively bunching together in cover. That said i absolutely agree that units in combat should prefer moving crouched and go prone when stopping (except for CQB). I see no reason for standing excpept when some evasive running is really neeeded. Edited December 23, 2009 by fabrizio_T orthography Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maturin 12 Posted December 23, 2009 What do I need to know about beta patches and 1.05? Do I delete the beta patch now? Or will BI continue beta patching and I should just apply the latest to the patched game? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jw custom 56 Posted December 23, 2009 What do I need to know about beta patches and 1.05? Do I delete the beta patch now? Or will BI continue beta patching and I should just apply the latest to the patched game? When a new beta comes out you can just use the uninstaller in the beta patch package to uninstall the old beta(just to be safe) and then install the new beta thats all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bensdale 0 Posted December 23, 2009 When a new beta comes out you can just use the uninstaller in the beta patch package to uninstall the old beta(just to be safe) and then install the new beta thats all. and uninstall the last beta patch before intsall the 1.05 final patch ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jw custom 56 Posted December 23, 2009 and uninstall the last beta patch before intsall the 1.05 final patch ;) Why? The beta is a mod :p Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sprayer_faust 0 Posted December 23, 2009 Actually you don't even have to uninstall the old beta. Just run the (new) beta installer and it will do the work for you (uninstall old, install new). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bensdale 0 Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) Why? The beta is a mod :p hmm yes you are right, but i have read thad it gives install problems with the beta and full :confused: Edited December 23, 2009 by bensdale Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bouben 3 Posted December 23, 2009 If you make units not stopping in ArmA 2 you'll end with all your units dead very quickly in my opinion. AI units can't fire while moving, who's going to protect their movement?They won't ever be able to run faster than a bullet. In reality pretty much anything, terrain included, can give you some degree of cover. Specialists know that pretty well. Problem is in a game such as ArmA 2 terrain is simplified geometry and you can't draw as many objects as in reality. So you deal with a artificial scarce cover situation, different than reality. That means that often your cover is too far to be reached safely or simply it's absent or not enough for a group. Well, I don't think that there is so big lack of cover in ARMA 2 enviroment. I mean I would rather see my mate running over a 300m long empty field for cover behind a tree without any stop in his movement than to see him stop in a crossfire and getting killed because a "tracking" OPFOR machingunner's fire finally caught him this way. I mean, flanking is a real pain in the ass with actual bounding overwatch behaviour. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
otrebla_snake_ita 2 Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) My mouse is really slow when I'm using High Command on the map. We still have stuttering About Suppressive Fire command...I'm not sure I've understood how it works XD Edited December 24, 2009 by otreblA_SNAKE_[ITA] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
