Bayonet/knife poll

[TangoRomeo 10]

... i suppose you`d even make an example of that crazy scotsman, who deployed a Claymore sword in WW2 with some success, if it served your agenda. But i agree, the wheel's spinning, but the hamster's dead. The discussion, on what basically is a non-issue, has gotten more replys than it actually deserves. ;)

[TmanEd 10]

...And besides, nothing says,"I'm fucked and going to die, but I'm going to go out in a blaze of glory," like a last ditch bayonet charge.

And what's really funny about it, is that there's a chance that it will actually work.

[Baff1 0]

... i suppose you`d even make an example of that crazy scotsman, who deployed a Claymore sword in WW2 with some success, if it served your agenda. But i agree, the wheel's spinning, but the hamster's dead. The discussion, on what basically is a non-issue, has gotten more replys than it actually deserves. ;)

I think you are clutching at straws.

[echo1 0]

You dying due to having used up all of your ammunition is not necessarily a signal that we need knives or bayonets put into the game, it is a signal that you need to learn to play more tactically, and create more situational awareness. Quoting dslyecxi.com (http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/basic_rifleman.html):

I agree. If I'm in a 'target rich' environment, and Im running low on bullets, I just pick up a dead enemy's rifle!

[Daniel 0]

It depends on your tasking in a mission. You might be fighting from a defensive position where all the dead enemy weapons are in the killing field.

Added to that, using enemy weapons might attract unwanted suppressive/indirect fire...

"AK47 fire and green tracer coming from that bunker, get some mortar fire on it!"

[Whiskey Tango 10]

... i suppose you`d even make an example of that crazy scotsman, who deployed a Claymore sword in WW2 with some success, if it served your agenda. But i agree, the wheel's spinning, but the hamster's dead. The discussion, on what basically is a non-issue, has gotten more replys than it actually deserves. ;)

You are troll! Hear you bore!

No one mentioned claymore weilding scotsmen in ww2 and it has nothing to do with bayonets or even combat knives. Now your argument has failed your trying to put words in our mouths. Whatever your agenda is. Troll must be one of the bullet points.

Most armies dont use bayonets has boiled down too one. "The german army"

This comes from their vast military experience they've harnessed over the last 60 odd years is it? they been in many wars then since the last big world one?

Do you know I have the sneaking suspicion that the allies probably made some provision where the german army are'nt allowed them by german law.

"Oh, i don't need a bayonet to play agressive. I didn't miss it in R6, GR, OFP or ArmA. Key to survival in all these games is situational awareness and eliminating a threat as quickly as possible, and it has been found that firearms are best suited for producing quick and definite results."

Well done you who does'nt need a bayonet to play aggresive. Lets all bow to your way of thinking shall we? And play the way you do? You milsim god and all are but sheep unto thine glory and omnipotent wisdom.

No lets not.

And the key to survive in this game is not to die.

"Situational awareness and eliminating threats as quickly as possible.and it has been found that firearms are best suited for producing quick and definite results."

Right thanks for the tips, a bit wide ranging there though are'nt they?

Not every situation demands that you engage any and all threats to you.

Elminate many T90's with 556 do you?

Or bring down aircraft with grenades?

No, you use the right tool for the right job and if you don't have the right tools then mostly you don't engage the enemy in that particular situation because you can't actually eliminate it or it's going to have a high casualty rate.

A bayonet is the right tool for the job of clearing trenches or compounds/buildings alongside grenades and smallarms. Pistol/rifle rounds and grenades are finite and won't always be ready for instant use where as a bayonet does'nt need any ammunition and won't jam if it's dirty or badly maintained or need any more maintenance than a wipe every now and then.

Does'nt require anymore than a fraction of a second to use and is very effective in dispatching the enemy at close quarters.

I agree. If I'm in a 'target rich' environment, and Im running low on bullets, I just pick up a dead enemy's rifle!

Great advice there mate! totally missing the point though eh?

If your close enough to pick up the enemies weapons it means your likely to be in close quarter combat with the enemy but yet again it's not about being out of totally ammuntion and having to pick up enemy weapons it's about not stopping untill the enemy is dead using every means you have in making it safe enough for you to have time to reorg and reload weapons or make ready grenades for the next assault or to be able to go into a defensive posture.

And what happens if theres no dead men to pick weapons up from?

If your longrange firefight that comes to nothing other than expending ammunition because your 4 man fireteam is 500 metre's from the enemy you just withdraw and call it quits do you? Thats not fun tbh.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Whiskey Tango
to explain again its not about being totally out of ammuntion

[kevbaz 0]

Just cant get my head around why people cant just accept that other people would like to see this implemented, conjouring up all sorts of bs just to have the last word, bluntly refusing to say "fair enough" and would rather continue to spill shite from their gobs than to actually get it in their head that the world doesnt revolve around them and that other people may actually have a different opionion from their own.

[froggyluv 2135]

I think a lot of people who are arguing against it are also talking about it from a coop perspective, meaning, you have intelligent guys around you to "hand you a mag" when your low. I do like CQB battles but I don't normally go about it in Rambo-esque glory but sometimes circumstances warrant improvisation and Knives/Bayo's offer that.

AAR: While playing an OFP/SLX/Vietnam COC mission, my fireteam of 6 was stalking out an enemy encampment which was fortified by a static MG'er sitting by a campfire. I had all of my men in stealth and was in the process of placing them strategically when we got flanked by another patrol. My men put up a good fight but eventually got mowed down by overwhelming forces. I got injured but was able to crawl away in the deep jungle undergrowth but the patrol was closing in on me fast. I could see the MG'er scanning for me but I was able to eventually flank him although I was flat out of ammo. With the MG'er back to me, I knew this was my chance so I armed my blade and sprinted toward him as he must have heard me starting rotating toward me, I slashed and killed him at the very last possible moment. Now, I was able to use his MG against the patrol and finally rearm myself. It was an unusual but great and extremely memorable moment even though it happened years ago.

COD and CS type knives are extremely unmemorable as they are to fast and twitchy used more as an exploit. This is a primarily infantry based sim, so the more options implemented for the grunt, the better I say.

[Zipper5 74]

Rifle-butting and a Marine-grade combat knife (since it's ArmA II) would be awesome, in my opinion. Provided they work.

[Daniel 0]

Exactly froggyluv. Even if they aren't used that often, when the opportunity does arise it only makes it all the more awesome. OFP was full of cries of "Shit! I just bayonetted that guy in the face!". It really was an achievement. You didn't want to be in the situation to have to use your bayonet, but if you had to, you had to, and it was usually awesome.

[PTV-Jobo 820]

I'm not sure how useful it would be all the time personally--though at times I sure as hell could have used such a feature. Either way, if it means introducing a new feature/function/ability to the world of ArmA, I'm 110% for it! The more the merrier! That's the beauty of ArmA, you can do so much to your hearts content compared to a lot of other strict and linear games out there.

Even if for a moment it isn't totally realistic--just say for sake of example here--haven't any of us at one time or another have a bad day or just want to sit down and have a good time with your friends--knifing each others asses for a good laugh? I say go for it. Why neuter further possibilities? :)

[echo1 0]

Great advice there mate! totally missing the point though eh? If your close enough to pick up the enemies weapons it means your likely to be in close quarter combat with the enemy but yet again it's not about being out of totally ammuntion and having to pick up enemy weapons it's about not stopping untill the enemy is dead using every means you have in making it safe enough for you to have time to reorg and reload weapons or make ready grenades for the next assault or to be able to go into a defensive posture.

Yeah, but surely there are some better way of doing that than bayoneting them?

And what happens if theres no dead men to pick weapons up from?

If your longrange firefight that comes to nothing other than expending ammunition because your 4 man fireteam is 500 metre's from the enemy you just withdraw and call it quits do you? Thats not fun tbh.

So you are going to run half a kilometer with bayonets equipped to stop them? I mean, I know it's been done even recently by the British army, but I think it's really time to call in artillery at that stage.

[Daniel 0]

Yeah, but surely there are some better way of doing that than bayoneting them?

You'd certainly think so wouldn't you. And yet this strange world we live in proves otherwise. Don't forget when you fix bayonets, it's not because you're low on ammo. It's because you're about to close with the enemy, so when your mag does run out, you've got that 4 foot spear to carry on killing with until it's safe to reload.

So you are going to run half a kilometer with bayonets equipped to stop them? I mean, I know it's been done even recently by the British army, but I think it's really time to call in artillery at that stage.

If you're in a built up area where arty might blat some poor bystanders, and you have buildings to cover your advance, then bayonets might not be such a bad choice. That's on the condition that it's accompanied by the mandatory battle cry of course.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

Correct me if i´m wrong...

You were and you have been.

Gimme my bayonet.

/thread

[NoRailgunner 0]

Bayonet assault from 500m?

Seems to me that most players/teams are able to handle close combat using proper tactics and weapons in Arma2 or ArmA or OFP. Running out of ammo during combat isnt BIS failure.

On the other hand such a feature needs some specific combat animations and proper AI implementations too. But how many time BIS should spend on bugfixing (improving Arma2) and how many time on such small features?

Bayonets are fading away from modern combat.

Look at developments of lightweight protective gear (vest) and close combat drills. Some untrained guys might be scared/shocked but professionals not.

[Whiskey Tango 10]

Yeah, but surely there are some better way of doing that than bayoneting them?.

No not really. Imagine this.

Your section/fireteam has bounded up to the enemy held house using classic fire and manouvre drills to within spitting distance of the house entrance.

You're going to be the first man in after the grenade goes off so you switch to fully automatic fire.

Grenade goes into the room. BANG!

You then burst into the room like the devil himself and spray anything and everything with automatic fire including any bodies on the floor for good measure, you don't stop untill you empty everything you've got into any likely enemy locations. CLICK!

At that moment with a dry mag around you lie 6 bodies, 3 died to the initial grenade, 2 have died to your automatic gunfire but one is now getting up as eveything has missed him and he still breathes and still carries an AK47 and he's swinging it around to point at you.

Do you...

A. Stop! And go through the whole changing mag routine?

B. Stop! let go of assault rifle and reach for pistol?

C. Hope your oppo can walk through you like a ghost and carry on the fight

while you do A or B or that he can maybe shoot around you without

hitting you?

D. Don't stop and just run the bad guy through the chest with the bayonet

attached to the end of your rifle with a nice twist or two and then

pulled out, rinse and repeat?

E. F. and G etc etc all result in your death in horrible gruesome ways...

It's a proven tool used for hundreds of years too do this job and do it well.

If your going to clear houses/bunkers/trenches in this game and not just ignore or bypass them because it's not your style of fighting, then a tool like a bayonet is going to be extremly beneficial in completing it without dying to that one guy who survived grenade and gunfire.

So you are going to run half a kilometer with bayonets equipped to stop them? I mean, I know it's been done even recently by the British army, but I think it's really time to call in artillery at that stage.

No not really. Your not going to have a half k firefight and maybe ROE forbids the use of artillery near civilian populace or maybe it's tasked elsewhere along with aircover, etc you not always got the assest to use at all times so your going to again fire and manouvre towards the enemy keeping him supressed as you bound up by section/fireteam untill you close with the enemy then your going to assault him and with combinations of shooting, stabbing, kicking dispatch and/or rout the enemy and take and hold the posistion then it's time for reorg, ammo cas check.

And ingame watching artillery blast everything to shit while you watch is a bit shit as TBH you and everyone else wants to be in amongst the action.

Maybe if you never get closer to the enemy than distances measured in hundreds of metres bayonets are'nt needed.

But just because we don't use weapon x in our style of play that we would'nt see it implemented into the game for those who would, aslong as it met the criteria of actually being used by modern armed forces and it's not as if were asking for a death ray here it's just a bayonet.

[Tinker 10]

^ What utter dribble. 1 man goes in and sprays the room? LOL

A team enters the room as a team, together, each having there own angle to cover as they do, simple as. Check your CBQ facts.

I also did bayonet training in the forces, is fun in Cod and also in Splinter Cell. Arma2 is as far from a CQB sim that you can get.

Imagine this...

This topic is mainly imagination. :rolleyes:

[Daniel 0]

You're going to be the first man in

1 man goes in and sprays the room? LOL

Seems like he said first man, not only man to me.

We're not talking leet spec ops CQB ftw, we're talking the end phase of a section attack. If you don't do section attacks and closing with the enemy in ArmAII, this thread will be of no interest to you.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Daniel

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

I love the fact that this thread has gone from a post about wanting bayonets in game to a post about whether it's appropriate to use them in modern conflict.

Different people will play according to different military doctrine as is most likely relevant to their country of residence/origin. I am British, I have the whole bayonet/long spear/cold steel/draw your sword sir mentality built into my brain and I suspect many A2 players are the same or similar.

Many US players (apologies for the sweeping generalisation here) subscribe to the "unload all your ammunition in the vague area of the target and you'll kill it eventually" military doctrine and therefore would not find this addition appropriate.

Given that many armies DO use them regardless of their perceived usefulness in combat, A2 should have bayonets as an option just to allow the simulation of something that IS used in the real world.

If you don't like it don't use them but they should be in the game.

[Prydain 1]

Tinker get a grip, we want to be able to assault positions with a bayonet as an optional tool. Nobody cares about your Splinter Cell and CoD fetish.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Prydain

[Whiskey Tango 10]

^ What utter dribble. 1 man goes in and sprays the room? LOL

A team enters the room as a team, together, each having there own angle to cover as they do, simple as. Check your CBQ facts.

I also did bayonet training in the forces, is fun in Cod and also in Splinter Cell. Arma2 is as far from a CQB sim that you can get.

This topic is mainly imagination. :rolleyes:

LOL try reading harder. What would 1 man be doing with an oppo? And you need to check your facts it seems.

Your 8 man section storms buildings as an 8 man section does it? no it does'nt you mong, not even all your 4 man fireteam does, what with having support weapons and such.^^ What sort of section commander risks everyones life to clear a posistion when 2 or 3 man can do the same job?

And no where do I mention clearing on your own "bound up by section or fireteam" is'nt alone. "your going to be the firstman" indicates that theres going to be others behind you, hence "first" and you've been watching to much ultimate force if you think you enter covering angles, sweeping the building and waiting to react to enemy fire.

So you enter an enemy held room waving your weapon around like your pissing up a wall?

shut up you give the room a healthy dose of lead before going anywhere near it, you don't sweep it like your part of rainbow 6 and you've got civilians in there you can't shoot. Theres enemy combatants in there and the first enemy in there is gonna nail you to the wall the moment you step through the door, sweeping angles and looking like a tosser.

If your following lead into the room then anyone in there is going to have their head down and you do spray fire anywhere likely to be concealing/harbouring enemy combatants. Duh! then any thats hiding there get shot and not shoot you. But ofcourse they would have told you that when doing your fibua stuff not bayonet training that consisted of getting you pissed off, giving you a bayonet and you getting to stab some sandbags with pigs guts in them. All very bloody, gory and good fun to let that aggression out. That training you did there was more about aggression control than anything else and stabbing sandbags. Storming enemy posistions or fighting in built up area's has nothing to do with the bayonet training you did except on how to thrust the bayonet into the enemy.

I'm not talking about searching houses for weapons of mass destruction or suspected insurgent leaders mums, but enemy held posistions in the middle of a firefight, where speed and aggression are whats called for so don't tell me you don't do it that way because thats the way you do it and thats the way I was trained to do it. So maybe you should check your CQB facts.^^

It may have been 17 years since I did stuff like that but it can't have changed that much.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Whiskey Tango
shitty grammer er grammar ahh feck it anyway

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

waaaaaaaaa i fail

this...

[andersson 285]

I have problems to see how it could be implemented into arma2. Yes you can use a knife/bayonet in RL, maybe someone even do it still today? (I had no bayonet training in Finland as they realised that the barrels could be bent during exercise lol, we practised how to use the assault rifle instead. Poke face with barrel, hit teeth and throat with mag and so on.)

Regardless of RL, I cant see how it could be implemented so it could be used in a good way. I dont like the "magical touch knife" you can see in some games.. So in arma2; how to grab the opponent, how to stab/cut?

[Prydain 1]

Implementation problems for people without game development backgrounds should not limited the desire.

The truth is that they are used in real life, that they would be extremely useful for large aggressive groups who engage in the sort of manoeuvring of a platoon of blokes in such a way that sections can assault positions should be proof of their need to be an option. VCB routinely assaults positions and I find myself close to a Chedder insurgent so often as to need the bayonet in many cases.

The fact that a battlefield simulator does not have an essential motivational and practical tool makes me question the genre claim.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Prydain

[andersson 285]

The way the animations are done in ofp/arma/arma2 makes for a quite static approach unless BIS, or someone with a mocap studio, want to put down serious manhours. Its possible, but what I doubt is if the effort is worth the end-result.

Knife: Animation where you grab the enemy from behind and slits his throat? How many versions are needed? Maybe one is enough, but it will then always play the same even if its a frontal attack. If different animations, how will the engine know what to play? Scripts?

Bajonet: Will it be defined as a muzzle or will it be an action? If muzzle, an animation must be triggered. Possible? In arma2, I honestly dont know as I worked mostly with ofp and arma.

So I think that the result will either mean big coding for BIS or we will be stuck with more static approaches (think the healing and carrying animation).

Then again maybe Im just limiting my thought.. Maybe its enough with some key-triggered animations like salute, heal and so on? I wouldnt mind being able to kill with a knife ingame. Maybe it is worth the implementation. What I dont think will happen so easilly is a fluent cqb fight using knifes ;)