Bayonet/knife poll

[Baff1 0]

I like to think the guy in the first photo is screaming "YOU ARE SO AWESOME!" at his bayonet.

Ah so funny.

I am laughing.

USMC house clearing training.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bittermonk/117942434/

USMC doing it for real.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/godkiller/901316604/sizes/m/

And in Fallujah

http://pa.photoshelter.com/gallery-img-show?P_ID=&_bqG=20&_bqH=eJzzsbAw1y2PTC_z9awIMSiriHDM9MnyC4oqjDKxMrQwsDIytbJyj_d0sXU3AIL4UuPE5BLPyvIoV7UAkKiau2e8u6OPj2tQJFZFQGnP.GD_oBBbz3g3Tx_XeD9HXyTReBfPIFvHYGcAru4oYQ--&GI_IMAGE_ID=I0000pO7uUsULijU

http://pa.photoshelter.com/gallery-img-show?P_ID=&_bqG=17&_bqH=eJzzsbAw1y2PTC_z9awIMSiriHDM9MnyC4oqjDKxMrQwsDIytbJyj_d0sXU3AIL4UuPE5BLPyvIoV7UAkKiau2e8u6OPj2tQJFZFQGnP.GD_oBBbz3g3Tx_XeD9HXyTReBfPIFvHYGcAru4oYQ--&GI_IMAGE_ID=I0000PJvY.eqpPAc

http://pa.photoshelter.com/gallery-img-show?P_ID=&_bqG=69&_bqH=eJzzsbAw1y2PTC_z9awIMSiriHDM9MnyC4oqjDKxMrQwsDIytbJyj_d0sXU3AIL4UuPE5BLPyvIoV7UAkKiau2e8u6OPj2tQJFZFQGnP.GD_oBBbz3g3Tx_XeD9HXyTReBfPIFvHYGcAru4oYQ--&GI_IMAGE_ID=I00007ARn5i369WY

Thanks to Digital Devil Dog for the links.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Baff1

[trickster1982 10]

*Holds bayonet out to trickster* - Now love it and stop going against it, bayonets are awesome and as I have said they are hugely practical. And I didn't mean to get into a tiff with you at all.

(Don't worry about being a noob by the way, compared to my level of awesomeness mere mortals are always noobs).

Hehe, you should do a cartoon featuring bayonets ;)

@Rhodite Aye, I'll keep it clean.

Now all we need is more endorsements for the bayonet!

I do admit baynets are awesome,i did some rifle drill with the TA a couple of months ago (havent joined yet as ive had an op which im now about recovered from) & they are a smart designed piece of kit!we were shown how to clip them on the A2,how to use it as wire snips,what the grooves in the blade are for etc,cool bit of kit!although if i ever got the order to fix bayonets i'd be seriously bricking it :eek:

[Ludovico Technique 0]

I think it's a modern misconception, perhaps in the UK stemming from the mess of the Somme, that war takes place at distance. At the Somme tens of thousands died in minutes because they were advancing, at a walk, standing tall, against machinegun emplacements. So of course a massacre like that resonates through history, and people think that you can't get close to a machinegun. I mean hell, it was something like thirty thousand men in half an hour, that's going to scare a culture. The Americans might have developed a similar hesitancy from WW2, because the Japanese were absolutely gagging for a scrap and their NCOs and officers carried swords for the purpose. Samurai nutter versus grubby yank conscript is a no contest. But in the modern age where NATO boasts generally superior troops the balance has shifted back so it's the enemy that should be scared up close.

The reality, as a lot of guys who have first hand experience have pointed out, is that war is very often a much closer range business than civilians would think.

Hypothetically suppose you are some insurgent or other, and you engage a convoy at what, fifty metres out, with untrained guys armed with AKs, you're not going to be massively lethal, you're not going to have fire discipline, and in real life a wave of a spraying automatic rifle is not going to knock down a whole line of guys. You can't go much further out than that, they've got optics and they'll pick you off, you need to be close in to hit anything. Most irregular forces fire with the sort of crazy technique that wouldn't look out of place in West Baltimore or Chicago so you want that spray to do damage. So you got this bunch of chumps, and the enemy are, if they decide to really come at you, what, seven seconds away from stabbing you up? A trained soldier is dangerous at range, but if you've got open ground behind you and a hundred yards already between you then you can run, and most insurgents do that, but when a trained soldier, with a rifle and a blade, is in your personal space what do you do? You get slotted. Horribly. And they know that, it's worse than the fear of death, because it's the fear of an incredibly unpleasant death with your guts ripped out by some shrieking British peasant. That fear is a weapon, almost as surely as the bayonet is, and that is why the bayonet is still used. I mean you hear the shout from those guys coming at you that gives you maybe a second to think, "WTF?" a second to peer out and see what's what, and then you are five seconds away from evisceration.

Got to remember too that most military action is about taking places from enemies, and if those enemies don't leave, well then somebody is going to have to have a word up close and personal.

[Jimbo762.au 0]

So everything the bayonet can do but not the bayonet itself?

Can people please at least try to use their loaf please?

The use of fixed bayonets is no where near as common as the use of a butt strike, that was the all I was trying to say. As much as bayonets are cool and doing bayonet drill is fun the first time. A butt strike is more common and more practical, especially when clearing building because putting on a bayonet adds approximately another 200mm to you weapon which is not the best when clearing rooms.

[Jonny_LI 10]

The use of fixed bayonets is no where near as common as the use of a butt strike, that was the all I was trying to say. As much as bayonets are cool and doing bayonet drill is fun the first time. A butt strike is more common and more practical, especially when clearing building because putting on a bayonet adds approximately another 200mm to you weapon which is not the best when clearing rooms.

I'd rather have that 200mm or whatever on the end of my rifle than rely on a "butt-stroke" taking the wind out of the enemy. Same detail if my weapon failed up close to the enemy I'd prefer that 6" blade on the end of my rifle than trying to club him to death.

Like one of my American counter-parts mentioned earlier, war is all about taking and holding ground - at some point after the fire fight is won someone is going to have to get in there and clear them out. ArmA offers many situations where a Bayonet is essential, Operating In Built Up Areas being the most obvious, especially room clearance, but also at any point where you need to enter an enemy posistion where you expect to be engaged at 5m or less.

Stop fighting it lads, the Bayonets been here many hundreds of years before you or I were born and it's certainly going to be around for many after we're gone. This is a credible suggestion rather than just wanting another rifle or plane added to the game we're talking about plugging the capability gap this game has at close quarters.

Last point, someone mentioned the old UKF Bayonet script. It was looked at for ArmA1 and basically whilst it was good for OFP ArmA1/2 have better ways around doing it, the UKF one wasn't without bugs so let's see if we can do a much better job with ArmA2.

Jonny

[Baff1 0]

The use of fixed bayonets is no where near as common as the use of a butt strike, that was the all I was trying to say. As much as bayonets are cool and doing bayonet drill is fun the first time. A butt strike is more common and more practical, especially when clearing building because putting on a bayonet adds approximately another 200mm to you weapon which is not the best when clearing rooms.

The whole reason the bayonet was invented and caught on so well was because it has proved so much more effective than the butt strike they used previously.

In the black powder days, musketmen could be expected to fight as melee troops after the first 3 volleys, At this point they would reverse their weapons and perform butt strikes. It was found by the French that with a bayonet attached, a rifle became a spear, which is a superior melee weapon to a club.

Thus a soldier with bayonet deployed, significantly outguns a soldier with no bayonet deployed in melee.

Many battles were won.

A big bruise, or your body penetrated by 6 inches of steel? Buttstrike! Lmao.

The butt strike may be commonly used, but a professional infantryman is trained and equiped to use a bayonet and a good officer knows when they need to.

Indoors being one of those moments troops are specifically taught for.

Here again I will repost this picture of USMC house clearing training. Please note the use of bayonet and not buttstrike even though the area is confined.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bittermonk/117942434/

(It takes less room to stab than it does to swing and it doesn't leave your gun out of position so you can still fire).

Here again I will repost the other photo showing the USMC with bayonet deployed on actual house clearance in Iraq.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/godkiller/901316604/sizes/m/

Buttstrike my arse. What kind of a noob army would advocate that?

Edited July 7, 2009 by Baff1

[=Spetsnaz= 0]

i hope they do add bayonets or close combat techniques that would be awesome

[-R2.5-Hendrix 10]

The whole reason the bayonet was invented and caught on so well was because it has proved so much more effective than the butt strike they used previously.

In the black powder days, musketmen could be expected to fight as melee troops after the first 3 volleys, At this point they would reverse their weapons and perform butt strikes. It was found by the French that with a bayonet attached, a rifle became a spear, which is a superior melee weapon to a club.

Thus a soldier with bayonet deployed, significantly outguns a soldier with no bayonet deployed in melee.

Many battles were won.

A big bruise, or your body penetrated by 6 inches of steel? Buttstrike! Lmao.

The butt strike may be commonly used, but a professional infantryman is trained and equiped to use a bayonet and a good officer knows when they need to.

Indoors being one of those moments troops are specifically taught for.

Here again I will repost this picture of USMC house clearing training. Please note the use of bayonet and not buttstrike even though the area is confined.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bittermonk/117942434/

(It takes less room to stab than it does to swing and it doesn't leave your gun out of position so you can still fire).

Here again I will repost the other photo showing the USMC with bayonet deployed on actual house clearance in Iraq.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/godkiller/901316604/sizes/m/

Buttstrike my arse. What kind of a noob army would advocate that?

I think that you need to think of the composition and practical terms of modern weaponry.

A Brown bess musket or Baker Rifle is not likely to disintegrate when you wrap it round Terry Taliban's face. A thrust into the ribs with cold Sheffield steel is a lot more satisfying and much more warry!

But then its not just the practicality, its the whole ethos.

[maxter 10]

What are the disadvantages of having a bayonet attached, and can it be modelled in the game in some way? Though I like the idea it kinda turns me off to add optional equipment with no downsides, since, well, everyone will use it (or in this case, attach it) because there's no reason not to.

If there was a reason to think twice before attaching it. it would increase the immersion further IMO.

For example, how are the collision shapes in A2? I remember in A1 where a MP5 had the same box as a SVD, for example, but if that's been fixed then maybe the bayonet could atleast be made to actually increase the length of the weapon (like it should), making it slightly more "bulky"? That would atleast be one step in the right direction.

[Prydain 1]

The use of fixed bayonets is no where near as common as the use of a butt strike, that was the all I was trying to say. As much as bayonets are cool and doing bayonet drill is fun the first time. A butt strike is more common and more practical, especially when clearing building because putting on a bayonet adds approximately another 200mm to you weapon which is not the best when clearing rooms.

This is not the 19th century, I would like to see how much pain you can inflict with an M4 or L85A2 butt.

I don't get your points, bayonets are used more than gun butts because one is lethal and the other is too far and flimsy to be of any use.

As Jonny has said, bayonets should fill a gap that has been left open for a long time, stop detracting from our main point.

[-R2.5-Hendrix 10]

We shouldnt have to defend why armies use Bayonets. The fact is they do, and we want them.

[Jimbo762.au 0]

Yes Bayonets worked well when it took 30 plus seconds to get you weapon to fire.

(It takes less room to stab than it does to swing and it doesn't leave your gun out of position so you can still fire).

Why are you trying to stick a bayonet in someone where you have to be 1m away when you can shoot them and keep your distance from them

When it all boils down to it the only time you are not going to shoot them is when you pull the trigger and your weapon doesn't go pop. If you want to then fix you bayonet and hope they don't shoot at you while you do it.

Bayonet training is still used today because it teaches "Controlled Aggression."

stop detracting from our main point

All I was doing was putting froward the other side to the argument.

[bascule42 10]

Buttstrike my arse. What kind of a noob army would advocate that?

The most aggressive and far reaching army in the world. Hollywood.

It, (the butt strike), looks good, its got style, but there is just something wrong with...and lets just picture this shall we...turning your weapon around so that the end that goes bang is pointing away from your enemy? Really? Cue dramatic music and some nifty camera work for a 2 minute struggle for the weapon. Lets not forget also that your mates are looking at the barrel of your weapon while it is en route to your enemies bonce, it hit...a phrase I recently learned comes to mind here. Negligent discharge.

Butt strikes are great melee attacks in COD though...

EDIT: Bayonets. Yeahhh.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Bascule42
thought I should relate to OP

[Prydain 1]

All I was doing was putting froward the other side to the argument.

What you are doing is stating your preference towards using the butt of your gun, which is not used, and arguing against bayonets, which are used.

There is no argument against the fact armys use bayonets, we are suggesting them because their application on Arma2 would ease up hand-to-hand combat situations from the clumsy point blank shooting we have now.

Why are you arguing the point anyway? Surely there are several threads talking about fast-roping and "1337SnIPeRS!111!" that you could add your time to. What we should be discussing is how it could be implemented and how useful it would be, without people coming in and saying none factual statements like "The use of fixed bayonets is no where near as common as the use of a butt strike".

Discuss bayonets please.

[vshadow 0]

Someone was asking about disadvantages for them in game to stop people from having them on all the time.

I was thinking what about lowering your camouflage value when it’s attached to simulate light reflecting off the blade or something.

That would encourage people to think before arming, just an idea is all.

[Prydain 1]

Arma2 has new slots for Compasses, Radios, Watches, ect. A bayonet could hold one of those slots. Disadvantages, well, you don't get disadvantages when you have an ACOG so I doubt it is needed. Having it attached doesn't really need to disadvantage you.

[dunedain 48]

cap'tain amerika style.. :D

[dmarkwick 261]

I seem to remember having a bayonet in OFP, perhaps one of the UK mods.

[-R2.5-_Dan 10]

Yea the UKF mod Made it back in ofp was one of the greatest additions to The game Ever.

[Baff1 0]

Yes Bayonets worked well when it took 30 plus seconds to get you weapon to fire.

Why are you trying to stick a bayonet in someone where you have to be 1m away when you can shoot them and keep your distance from them

The answer is, "I am not".

I'm not trying to get within 1m of the enemy so that I can stick a bayonet in him. I am within 1m of the enemy so I am going to use the most effective weapon I own at that range. My bayonet.

Because if I really could keep my distance from them, they wouldn't be 1m away.

Lets give you the historical example mentioned earlier in this thread.

Some British soldiers are ambushed and pinned down on a Basra street in Iraq.

Enemy mortars arrive and get their range.

They must now move off the street or die.

Unfortunately the only cover from the mortars is the surrounding buildings which are enemy firing positions.

There was only two choices. Close with the enemy or remain at a distance from them and die.

Lets give you another historical example.

The Battle of Hue.

The USMC are cut off from their main force in a Vietnamese city.

Their fellow marines must push through town to rescue them or they will all die.

Running up to a street corner, a marine encounters an enemy soldier running up to the same street corner from the other direction. The first time they see eachother, is when they are 1m apart.

The Marine has a bayonet equiped and is running full pelt, his superior equipment and training saves his life and takes his enemies. It's an enemy held city, there are a lot of corners.

Again, here there are only two choices, risk closing with the enemy, or let your comrades all die.

You don't get to always choose what range you engage your enemy at. He is doing everything in his power to deny you any options every battle. Flexibility is the key. The ability to dominate at all ranges, not just long range.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Baff1

[Jimbo762.au 0]

Righto,

I am not saying do not include a bayonet, I am saying put in a melee, that is a but stroke or a muzzle prod and turn that into a bayonet poke if you have one fixed, like in Red Orchestra.

Also my the bayonet the trade off that it really is, put on a bayonet and make the rifle less accurate and give it more recoil (attaching the bayonet altars the harmonics of the barrel thus increasing the recoil).

As for saying no one butt strikes, watch these Aussie recruits doing bayonet drill, funny enough a butt strike is used...

HERE!

[maxter 10]

Disadvantages, well, you don't get disadvantages when you have an ACOG so I doubt it is needed. Having it attached doesn't really need to disadvantage you.

I would say using an ACOG as opposed to aimpoint/ironsights gives you worse SA and it's also generally harder to use in close quarters. So yeah, there are pros and cons with the different optics available.

As I said, if there are no cons then everyone will obviously run around with bayonets attached all the times which greatly reduces the charm of it all, IMO.

If there is a reason, however small, to atleast think twice before attaching your bayonet it would be an even greater addition to the gameplay.

Edited July 7, 2009 by maxter

[trickster1982 10]

the guys on the a.r.s.s.e forums would be loving this thread :p

[Baff1 0]

Righto,

I am not saying do not include a bayonet, I am saying put in a melee, that is a but stroke or a muzzle prod and turn that into a bayonet poke if you have one fixed, like in Red Orchestra.

Also my the bayonet the trade off that it really is, put on a bayonet and make the rifle less accurate and give it more recoil (attaching the bayonet altars the harmonics of the barrel thus increasing the recoil).

As for saying no one butt strikes, watch these Aussie recruits doing bayonet drill, funny enough a butt strike is used...

HERE!

Weapons are balanced for accuracy with their bayonets attached.

You should actually experience less recoil due to the extra weight, but nothing significant.

On a bullpup weapon, such as the Aussies use, especially; it should serve towards counteracting the barrel climb during automatic fire. It is more stable on automatic fire with bayonet equiped than it is without.

The same is true for an M16 but since most of the weight is in front of the elbow, the gun is not prone to such barrel rise as bullpups are to begin with.

The balance is further foward so the end of the gun has a greater effective weight already.

(But similar mass, if that makes any sense to you, imagine your shoulder to be the fulcrum).

Edited July 7, 2009 by Baff1

[Jimbo762.au 0]

I have fired a rifle with a Bayonet on, I have fired a rifle with out a bayonet, I have moved through pit with a rifle with a bayonet and with out a bayonet, would much rather a rifle with out a bayonet....

There is something that has not been said. Take a standard Australian Infantry section (those who have severed in other countries Infantry units feel free to add in) 9 man section, 2 F89 Minimis (M249 SAW) 2 F88s with GLAs (M203) a bayonet can not be fixed to a Minimi or a F88 with a GLA so of your 9 men, 4 can not attach a bayonet. Take this to an section on ops probably only 7 men this leave you with 3 men with a bayonet that can be fixed to their rifle.

As I have tryed to say I am not saying do not include a bayonet, by all means do, but make it part of a broader melee option.