Orange-yellow bushes are complete fps killers

[desertjedi 3]

EXCELLENT post zOMGREI. I think you've summarized a lot of the problems we're all experiencing and that are greatly affecting the Arma 2 experience.

Thanks to Alex as well!

I hope the devs see this and act on it.

[Flash Thunder 10]

zOMGREI= :31:

Its not the art of the trees or the models its just the LOD and probably the excessive amounts of foilage on the trees.

[lee_h._oswald 0]

Can I have OFP trees in ArmA2 please?

MfG Lee :inlove:

[CarlGustaffa 4]

The overdraw explanations sounds acceptable to me, as the hit is going from 30+ fps to 2-4 fps by advancing closer to that particular kind of tree. I won't post screenshots today, since when I'm looking for it, I won't find it :) Just spent several hours looking for a tree in Arma2, and I kind find it :D

As for OA, I'm hoping for different kind of cover in the terrain than just tree based. Maybe some micro terrain features that provide natural looking dimps and recessions in the terrain. Maybe elevated roads in some places.

[randir14 10]

I think the LOD is a major part of it...use kju's PROPER low vegetation addon and see the huge FPS increase.

[Alex72 1]

Yes we know randir14 (thanks though). We are trying to get out info now to BIS here so they can manage to do something better. ARMA2 is not finished completelly yet and OpA is coming so there is need for tweaking here before its considered done.

[zOMGREI 10]

zOMGREI= :31:

Its not the art of the trees or the models its just the LOD and probably the excessive amounts of foilage on the trees.

The art is secondary to the issue, yes, but it certainly doesn't help the fact. If these damned trees are going to kill my FPS on a top-end system, then they'd better damn well be the most beautiful things I've ever set my eyes on. Also, I would like to clarify, I was praising the actual trunk/branch/root models. The leaves they bury them under, on the other hand...

Anyway, they can fix the overdraw, but the performance will still be utter shite if they insist on keeping the leaf density the same. I'm pretty sure 3/4ths of the real world's trees and bushes have less leaves than the ones in ArmA 1 and 2 do.

Finally, if I get banned for criticism, well, that just shows what type of company BIS is and they won't be getting any further business from someone that's been with them since the beginning.

Edited September 23, 2009 by zOMGREI

[kklownboy 43]

....

Why would they ban you? For owning a 295?. Yes there is a frame hit. It worse when your resolutions is too much for your hardware, along with the view distance to far. For me its a non issue if i keep it in the 2600VD. I want more detail though. But a option to turn it down, or effect the Load ect would be nice. Kjus proper mod is really nice and a must have. There are allot of reducing stuff to increase frames/performance, but i would rather buy newer and better hardware to have better IQ and more detail. But i am old school like that. Guess i hope Bis can improve the performance with out reducing the detail to much.

[kozzy420 21]

These killer trees have never cut my FPS in half, this is wierd hearing about this as Ive never noticed this. Ive definatly seen those red treest before but no decrease in FPS for me. But then again I do play with my shadows on low and everything else on high. Maybe I might have this issue if I turn up the shadows?

Edited September 23, 2009 by kozzy420

[Flash Thunder 10]

Why would they ban you? For owning a 295?. Yes there is a frame hit. It worse when your resolutions is too much for your hardware, along with the view distance to far. For me its a non issue if i keep it in the 2600VD. I want more detail though. But a option to turn it down, or effect the Load ect would be nice. Kjus proper mod is really nice and a must have. There are allot of reducing stuff to increase frames/performance, but i would rather buy newer and better hardware to have better IQ and more detail. But i am old school like that. Guess i hope Bis can improve the performance with out reducing the detail to much.

your complaint is legit but you're basically flaming BIS which will get you banned fast.

Ohara is already sharing this info with the rest of the devs so be patient coding isn't fast or easy. :cool:

[LJF 0]

Red trees hate me :(

[Alex72 1]

These killer trees have never cut my FPS in half, this is wierd hearing about this as Ive never noticed this. Ive definatly seen those red treest before but no decrease in FPS for me. But then again I do play with my shadows on low and everything else on high. Maybe I might have this issue if I turn up the shadows?

Yellow trees also. We are talking about the trees with thousands of independent leafs. Zoom into a valley of them standing close. Cant believe you dont drop in FPS.

[Binkowski 25]

It's that L.I.N.D.A. system that BIS is using now, they announced it awhile back when ArmA2 wasn't released. If I do recall correctly..

[maturin 12]

Is L.I.N.D.A. less resource-intensive than Speedtree and the like? Because the canopies are a strange style, what with leaves scattered and floating in air at the edges of the tree.

[eenter 0]

Setting for foliage detail would be nice i guess.

[norsu 180]

It's not overdraw, it's your guys's theory that you need to create these gigantic wads of "leaves" under the assumption that more raw pixels=better. The leaves on the foliage looks awful, cut down the number of leaves shown and improve the quality of the texture to actually resemble leaves instead of a shit-ton of very, very low detail splotches pasted to really nicely textured trees/shrubs. It looks like abstract art most of the time, since leaves and branches will often be hovering freely without any actual connection to the skeleton of the tree trunk.

For vegetation BIS uses normal maps with very noisy alpha channels to help the alpha blending of leaves and such. This is what causes the pixellation effect you mention, the actual diffuse texture has infact visible leaves. If you replace the noisy alpha channel in normal maps with plain white, you will see the leaves very clearly. This will however cause lots of popups as the alpha blending won't be smooth anymore.

Maybe BIS could improve the vegetation by using something like in Oblivion for example. Combinations of polygons and sprites.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@ohara:

Found one, at last. But I had some mods active, sounds and lowered grass I think. Here is a snapshot of how bad it gets for me:

Bah, see that the settings got made invisible by the size reduction to 100kB, but they are basically:

Normal, normal, normal, disabled for the left column.

Low, low, disabled for the middle column.

High, windowed, 1718x1075 (3D res), disabled, normal, and 16:10 for the right column.

Terrain Low and Visibility of 999 matches the in game (Domination) adjustable settings.

Going from normal to low texture settings fixes this, but then the game just isn't fun enough to play anymore as I have much bigger problems seeing in the woods.

[ohara 0]

Ok, and now try to decrease resolution with same settinngs i expect linerar dependency on resolution (3D resolution - fillrate optimizer in erarly arma version)

[Alex72 1]

Me personally i am on 1024x768 with most to normal (AA=high, PP=low), and 2500VD for SP and it is really really good performance. I have nothing to complain about. Sure i want higher resolution but my specs is a bit old. But those trees (wich are beautiful!) kills my game as well FPS wise.

There is a unbalance so to speak. Everything flows superb until i turn and see those trees. So it would ofcourse be very nice if they could get "lighter" on the system.

You did it in ArmA1! :) Shader magic? Maybe its harder in ARMA2 for you? I think you will get it better soon enough. Keep up the great work guys.

Alex

[bluesteel 0]

I found the problematic tree. I get around 30fps in that area, but when I am close enough that the tree fills my view completely, it drops down to 20fps.

I think you are right, Ohara, I found a almost linear resolution dependancy. 50% 3D resolution gave me 45fps while looking at the tree, and 200% resolution gave me something around 13fps, starting from 20fps at my normal resolution (1680x1050).

I believe the only fix is to replace that particular tree model with a less detailed one, one with less overlapping layers.

[ohara 0]

I believe the only fix is to replace that particular tree model with a less detailed one, one with less overlapping layers.

There could be problem that less detailed lods could have bigger overal surface, i will measure it when will be in office.

[zOMGREI 10]

For vegetation BIS uses normal maps with very noisy alpha channels to help the alpha blending of leaves and such. This is what causes the pixellation effect you mention, the actual diffuse texture has infact visible leaves. If you replace the noisy alpha channel in normal maps with plain white, you will see the leaves very clearly. This will however cause lots of popups as the alpha blending won't be smooth anymore.

Maybe BIS could improve the vegetation by using something like in Oblivion for example. Combinations of polygons and sprites.

I'd honestly rather have the pop-up, considering with the LOD implementation as it is you get a similar effect anyway. Oblivion did have superior foliage, I'd really wish BIS used a similar system. The pixellation really, really bothers me, it looks like a stopgap solution one would use until an alternative was found, but that's obviously not the case here. Very sloppy and underwhelming.

your complaint is legit but you're basically flaming BIS which will get you banned fast.

Ohara is already sharing this info with the rest of the devs so be patient coding isn't fast or easy.

You're confusing harsh criticism with flaming. If what I said earlier falls under BIS's definition of flaming, then quite a few of the people that professionally reviewed the game would be considered trolls, and that's not a good sign. If my first post consisted only of "lol BIS hires failures to work as texture artists", then you'd have a point.

[ohara 0]

Problem of billboard based technology is that it does not alow any kind of interaction, we need to destroy trees by tanks for example. Not possible with billboards that always rotate to face to you without very strange artifacts. There are also other problems like not possible to cast real shadows or use direct lighting as volume is not represented by correct geometry shape.

I will look on that problematic orange tree.

[Alex72 1]

Thank you Ohara. You are the best. :)

Same tree (or different with that high impact) is also on Utes - runway south big hangar (little yard with high walls around. Yellow tree(s) right along the wall.

Very good looking, but also very demanding.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Alex72

[Flash Thunder 10]

Great info Ohara this fix should give alot of people that extra preformance so they can enjoy the game at playable frame rates when near them.

Can't wait for news.

Remember those killer trees I think are on both Islands. :)