Movement is so sluggish in all BIS games, WHY?

[thefoolio888 10]

Have you tried using the "walk" key?

Without having the normal FPS slidey movement (i.e. tap-tap-tap and you move a pixel at a time), you are talking about having a system where you can independently control the movement of your limbs to the millimetre.

That's not going to happen, and if you thought about it, your really wouldn't want that level of control. Using the walk button is as close as you're ever going to get I'm afraid.

[thomas82 10]

ofp cwc movement/controls + arma2 graphics => i wouldnt need any other game for the rest of my life...

[S!fkaIaC 10]

The generic body animation as we still have it in ArmA II is by all means WRONG, especially if BIS claims that ArmA II / VBS 2 should be mainly infantry simulations. Why?

1.) You have just 3 positions. That was ok in 1985, but not in 2009. To hide/use cover in an efficient way you need much more then 3 positions between standing and laying down-head down. There are animation systems in other games doing this a million times better.

The worst thing with this is that all obstacles in ArmA must have the same height to hide perfectly. Pretty much nuts that.

2.) It is not possible to interrupt already started animations. This is hard to make, nevertheless possible. There must be a way to stop a started animation for entering into another animation like fast jump to left/right to save your virtual life.

3.) The animation system of ArmA does not support collision detection of body-attached equipment + usage of that collision point as new centre of rotation. That is why we can not use an obstacle we using for cover as an rest for the weapon. I would expect from an advanced animation system that when I lower my gun (moving mouse down) my body just moves the gun down until the gun is getting contact with the obstacle, and until then, my body is rising its position until the maximum possible height to be able to aim further down with that gun.

[Dreepa 10]

Have you tried using the "walk" key?

Without having the normal FPS slidey movement (i.e. tap-tap-tap and you move a pixel at a time), you are talking about having a system where you can independently control the movement of your limbs to the millimetre.

That's not going to happen, and if you thought about it, your really wouldn't want that level of control. Using the walk button is as close as you're ever going to get I'm afraid.

First of all: The walk key doesnt make a difference when using scope

In BIS games (and Arma2) the whole sight is shaking when making small movements to correct your position. It is not possible to move as if the gun is pressed against your shoulder and you look down the barrel while slowly coming around that tree/corner/window...

And please: No one talks about pixels or millimetre. Im talking about choppy animations with unsteady scope with each "tap" on the 'a' or 'd' key. The scrope shakes, period. How professional is that when you know that an enemy in that bush over there is aiming at the tree you are currently hiding behind?

Must I record it with fraps ann put it on youtube before the fanboys understand?

I like OFP, I like ArmA and I like ArmA2 (even with all those bugs and even with the fact that BIS should be ashamed for abusing the german market as beta testers). This is merely constructive criticism.

An easy way to improve this would be an even slower movement mode, holding down CTRL for example. Where the soldier puts all effort into staying on target with his sights (just like you would do when rearranging your position slightly while standing behind a tree or window).

I edited the opening post to make my point more clear.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Dreepa

[whisper 0]

Walking while in scope of a scoped weapon? I'm really not sure it should be steady. I only should be irl if the weapon is supported (on fence, etc...), if you ask me. Thing that doesn't exists in A2

[Scrub 0]

Now it makes sense.. Yes sluggish set a different picture in my mind. Not sure how you think it could be handled, could you please explain a bit more? I'm thinking if you slow or smooth everything down (again, not sure what the real movement solution would be)anytime there's a scope, I'm pretty certain someone would be complaining about lack of responsiveness and inability to duck back in cover - and on the other hand, not globally setting the condition, but make ANOTHER set of controls/movement modifying control key? Just some thoughts.

I just re-read the WHOLE first post, and see what you're getting at.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Scrub

[metalcraze 290]

In response to first post I think BIS should keep it as it is. I don't want a "shooter", I want a hardcore simulator.

[S!fkaIaC 10]

In response to first post I think BIS should keep it as it is. I don't want a "shooter", I want a hardcore simulator.

Why everyone is trying to suggest that a serious war simulator must have an odd animation system? That is nonsense!

[max power 21]

You claim you're playing a simulator, and you're walking around while looking through a telescope.. and then you claim it's too shaky?

[eenter 0]

The current system is as good as it gets.

[thomas82 10]

the movement of arma2 might be good and realistic in open fields.. but it looses the realistic aspect when u're movin inside towns.. the soldier you are controling feels too heavy.. as if he walked 50km before.. some call it "robotic" ..

I WAS HAPPY WITH THE OFP MOVEMENT!!! 1000s OF OFP FANS FEELIN THE SAME WAY I DO!!! (those fans who left the series when arma1 came out only because of the new movement-model) IN OFP IT WAS POSSIBLE TO PLAY CQB!!!

nobody is talkin from cod! ;-)

now in arma2 it looks much better then in arma1.. and i have still hope that the big ctf-community is finding the way back..

[Scrub 0]

WAIT A MINUTE... I'm missing something. You are saying OFP.. As in OFP1, CWC/Res.. BIS's First OFP.

The one where you looked through a scope or iron sight, took a step sideways and the world slanted 30 degrees one way and then the other, like you were drunk, walking on wooden peglegs!!?!? Was even different going left than right.. That OFP? The one where you're walking straight with irons and the gun swam like you were absent mindedly humming a sweet tune? Or was it the one that didn't have lean until years later where that mod team hacked the keyboard and put one in.. Again. I'm missing something. Please help.

[ThePainkiller 10]

Its perfect as it is, like it was in OFP and ArmA, i agree with others who say, that low framerate cause sluggish movement, so lets hope BIS improves the performance.

[mr reality 0]

Guys, while I respect everyone's opinion... please read more carefully!!

75% the posts here are missing the point.

My initial post was not about speed issues in movement, not about removing the "special feeling" etc.

Some of you read "standard shooter" and immediatelly go "zomfg, shooter kiddy go away"... in fact, that attitude is more showing who is the kiddy.

What the first post was about is "smoothness". I have to admit, "sluggish" was the wrong word.

We (as humand beings) can move small inches and smoothly/steadily aim while moving around a corner. We re no roboters. We are not artificially restricted.

In BIS games however, you are forced to tip the 'a' and 'd' keys while experiencing a weird bobbing and stumpy and clumsy feeling.

Slowly moving around the edge of a house is not feeling realistic. Slowly moving around a tree is not smooth.

In objection to what some people say, it is NOT realistic. Movement from the human perspective is fluid, its not a step by step experience.

Same goes for movement in buildings. When standing at a window and trying to find a good angle, its a usability nightmare.

Be it OFP, Arma or Arma2 (which I just bought)... you feel like a disabled person in so many situations.

Put simply, this is the game engines limits. You wont see fluid movements or precise wall hugging in ArmA2. I'm hopeing for a GRAW style movement animations in OFP dragon rising. The huge scope of ArmA with the animations of COD would be one hell of a game.

[galzohar 31]

COD's cool animations (at least in COD4) are mostly for the (very much scripted) AI. Player animations are pretty horrible (see MP COD4...). And yes movement in COD4 is quite a bit too fast.

When it comes to shaking, if you ever used a weapon you'd know any slight body movement should very much take you off target, but shouldn't even come close to giving you a 30deg offset either. It's all a matter of proper tuning. I hadn't played a lot of arma 2 yet, but from what I've played so far it seems rather reasonable. What makes it bad is that bringing the sights up needs to be quite faster - We are holding the weapon shouldered, right? The time it takes to bring it up is more like as if you're bringing it up from the hip... IRL you would generally stop looking through your sights to make position adjustments.

Having walking sped up a bit or a new movement speed mode added would probably help a lot too. Additionally/Alternatively, give us a slower jog that keeps the weapon up even when not sighted (similar to the jog we have now if we try to jog with the weapon sighted).

[max power 21]

WAIT A MINUTE... I'm missing something. You are saying OFP.. As in OFP1, CWC/Res.. BIS's First OFP.

The one where you looked through a scope or iron sight, took a step sideways and the world slanted 30 degrees one way and then the other, like you were drunk, walking on wooden peglegs!!?!? Was even different going left than right.. That OFP? The one where you're walking straight with irons and the gun swam like you were absent mindedly humming a sweet tune? Or was it the one that didn't have lean until years later where that mod team hacked the keyboard and put one in.. Again. I'm missing something. Please help.

I don't get it either. It's often said that OFP had a much smoother movement system, but I don't recall it like that. Perhaps it's just that in 2006, before arma came out, they were playing with 6 years of technical advancement in computers and could run OFP super smooth, while ArmA 2 is running a little slower.

[thomas82 10]

i have ofp (CWC) still installed on my system.. the difference of moving/aiming is not FPS-related.. in ofp everything was much more "direct".. in arma its like all your actions u do with mouse/keyboard are realized in game a split of a second later..

this might be "weight-simulation".. we should have the option to turn it on/off serverside

[Cionara 10]

Yeah it's goot but sometimes annoying. "oh no there's a big tank hunting me and I can't escape because I can't step/jump over this oil-pipe."

Know what I mean ? ^^

[DaSquade 0]

Somehow i can understand what Dreepa means.

This 'old' youtube movie more or less captures it a bit: PS2 versus PS3 animations

I repeat, it 'more or less' captures the idea.

Imho it can be better, the current movements etc, but how. One thing is sure, OFP has special due to the free head movement. Thanks to gadgets like TrackIR etc with some adjustment and tweaking you almost have perfect controle over the head. Personally i think it will be hard to get more freedome out of the body itself in combination with controling it. One would need to be a finguer atletic to master controle over it (notice that the free head movement sometimes can be a pain..as you tend to get mis-allignment of the head-body).

Anyway, fact is that FPS have big effect on your characters movement. That and training can still result in good controle. In CQB it is often the mix of small places (geo restriction) and your characters gun/body witch often isn't visible (awareness?) that makes movement hard.

[Cellus 10]

I swear most people who cry 'realism' at every infantry critique have never stepped foot outside. Player modelling in Arma II is of a clumsy oaf. CQB is virtually pointless. Proper MOUT is impossible.

Tactical Gaming

TAG East

FPS below ~40 can make your controls non-responsive, but now I have a steady 50+ I still feel like there is a monkey on my back. One that gets agitated in towns or when I move. Even creeping the aim bounces like a meth addict with a fire-cracker up its backside. Rather than going on, I'll just point back to dslyecxi's site above. It's all in there. Can decent movement and controls for MOUT be implemented by mod? Or does it need to come from an engine tweak?

[Alex72 1]

What i dont like in ARMA2 is the same as in ArmA that ACE removed - the weird bounce when walking slowly forward. It has unnatural bounce left and right/up and down that i think BIS intentions were to make it "realistic". Like "a weapon isnt still in RL when moving" and thats true. But when you move in for CQB you steady your weapon/tighten your muscles etc and you have great control over it with ironsights or eotechs/aimpoints. As it is now it extremely hard to walk down a road and feel professional. And the weird bounce is to blame. You cant get rid of it even by holding right mouse button.

Im confident ACE2 will fix it like they did with ArmA (Steady Aim), but i was hoping for this as well as some other things to be in the core game. ARMA2 is not useless cause of this ofcourse, but it would be nice if it was done a bit better for CQB. We got so nice smooth movement now that a more steady aim while slow walk would been godsent. At least IMO.

Alex

[4 IN 1 0]

IMO the scalable free floating sight is as good as it can be for ARMA2(dunno how people firing their rifle they clam they are without overstressing their muscle and having loudsy shots), what BI really need to do is to speed up the "looking down the sight" transitions and make gun more stable when walking, also they have to think of a way to make sure that turning the body in tight place be much smoother(gun model are blocking the way and the PC wont lower the gun)

Additionally it would be lovely if BI change the moving style a bit as well, slightly lower joging speed with more stable gun, slightly slower normal forward speed with buttstock on your shoulder pointing forward and be quite unstable, sprint as now it is, then i think most people(if not all) would be happy

Edited June 16, 2009 by 4 IN 1

[Helmut_AUT 0]

For me, the big thing when moving is that turning seems so... delayed. That means I'm moving my mouse across the pad left to right at a constant speed X, but in A2 the movement of the player/screen/view starts at a lower speed y, and then slowly accelerates to X. It's like the player model being stuck in glue at first until it breaks free and has normal speed.

It might be an attempt to model gear load and mobility restrictions, but it means that it makes small control movements very imprecise, since we are best at controlling linear movement speeds that correspond exactly to mouse movement. And the way it's now, ot constantly feels like you are "lagging" since what your hand does is not mirrored 1:1 on the screen.

In theory a good idea, but just annoying for it's lack of usability.

[baddo 0]

I don't have a problem with this in Operation Flashpoint, however in Armed Assault it is possibly one of the most annoying things. I am afraid when I get ArmA 2 it is still there, I base this estimate on the videos I have seen.

[galzohar 31]

For me, the big thing when moving is that turning seems so... delayed. That means I'm moving my mouse across the pad left to right at a constant speed X, but in A2 the movement of the player/screen/view starts at a lower speed y, and then slowly accelerates to X. It's like the player model being stuck in glue at first until it breaks free and has normal speed.

It might be an attempt to model gear load and mobility restrictions, but it means that it makes small control movements very imprecise, since we are best at controlling linear movement speeds that correspond exactly to mouse movement. And the way it's now, ot constantly feels like you are "lagging" since what your hand does is not mirrored 1:1 on the screen.

In theory a good idea, but just annoying for it's lack of usability.

It's not the concept of acceleration that's the problem. It's the fact that this concept gets greatly increased on certain systems, usually with lower FPS. If you watch some youtube videos of people with good systems you'll see the weapons are pretty damn responsive and it's a non-issue. I wish they'd fix it though so it works the same on all systems.