Tank Fire Control Systems

[ryankaplan 1]

i second that.

[clownbassie 0]

addon, to bad it didn't work at MP

[mattxr 9]

If it works in MP it will then be classed as a cheat.

Becuase all those poor people without it will get owned.

[Panda-PL- 0]

If it works in MP it will then be classed as a cheat.

Becuase all those poor people without it will get owned.

He ment it didn't work even if all clients and server have it.

[343rdBadger 0]

No, that's not it at all.  There's no IFF.  

I'm probably mistranslating it, though.  I'll bet it has something to do with ATGMs.  The 1K13 is the primary ATGM sight on the T-72B, and it has a maximum laser tracker range of 4-5000m.  The BPK-2 is not the ATGM sight for a BMP-2, but maybe there's some kind of option.  "Non-Standard" could be "Not Standard."  

The T-72 is kicking my head in.  There are apparently several very good reasons for the turret being level.  I've gotten it to mostly work, but the commander's gun is completely screwed up in external view.  I've managed to screw up the shadows on the glacis plate, too, and I don't think O2 has useful enough tools to let me fix it.  I'm forced to start over from the BIS model again, because I can't find a "detach face" function.  

BIS' T-72 model just looks so wrong, though.  I've got to find a way to fix it.

What if it was edited in 3d studio max...then imported into o2...would that solve the detach face problem??

[PTV-Jobo 820]

Manzilla, thanks for taking the time to respond to my little dilemma. I have everything in the Addons folder that I should. The only things extra in there are for replacement skins for the soldiers--for some reason when I launched the mod folder they didn't appear. So I threw them in the addons folder and they worked. So those and the event handler things are in there.

I noticed when I tried launching the game with both this and ArmAEffects, this mod didn't work for some odd reason. I tried it also with 6thSense and it worked, but the tracers were going at the speed of smell for some odd reason.

But since this--from what I'm reading--isn't for MP (yet) I just removed it for now. Bummer too.

[clownbassie 0]

If it works in MP it will then be classed as a cheat.

Becuase all those poor people without it will get owned.

they will get owned by me two without this addon also

But it didn't worked by me at MP. I had no ammo and no scope vieuw at my m1.

[Maddmatt 1]

Manzilla, thanks for taking the time to respond to my little dilemma. I have everything in the Addons folder that I should. The only things extra in there are for replacement skins for the soldiers--for some reason when I launched the mod folder they didn't appear. So I threw them in the addons folder and they worked. So those and the event handler things are in there.

I noticed when I tried launching the game with both this and ArmAEffects, this mod didn't work for some odd reason. I tried it also with 6thSense and it worked, but the tracers were going at the speed of smell for some odd reason.

But since this--from what I'm reading--isn't for MP (yet) I just removed it for now. Bummer too.

Worked fine for me, and I was running it in combination with both ArmA Effects and the 6thsense tracers. Maybe you're running old versions, or don't have the extended EH addon installed correctly.

Could be another old mod lying in your addons folder.

Of course it doesn't work in MP yet, but it's only the first release.

[PTV-Jobo 820]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I have the handlers in my ArmA\Addons folder for ease. I'll try again maybe just for sake of curiosity. But yeah the tracers were messed up for me in the aspect of how fast the moved. I mean it looked like the wind was in a battle with the tracers lol.

Back to the drawing board to find out what's wrong.

[EDIT]: Ok, I finally got it to work with 6thsense. I did get an error message when Arma loaded which was:

Quote[/b] ]no entry 'bin\config.bin/CfgModels.default

I have no idea what that means. I haven't touched any config.bin's. These are the only things I launched with it at the time:

-------------

Hidden ArmA Voices (out of curiosity :P)

OFP Voices

Six_Pack1 (6thSense)

ArmA Effects

Real_M136

DMSmokeEffects

and of course NWD_TankFCS

---------------

I did try this bad boy out on Sakakah in the editor against a moving target and I gotta say the video made it look so much easier, lol. Okay, I know I'm a dumb***, I never played Steel Beasts nor OFP, hell I don't even know much about a lot of things like this, but I'm glad I found ArmA and this community because you guys have opened up a new world to a guy like me and I'm slowly learning little by little. So While I gotta get a hang of this I really do love this thing. Thank you for putting in the time and effort to make this.

[Lawman1965 0]

When I rotate the turret with the Mod running (yep, it's working now) the reticule lags behind. Is that correct, coz it makes it bloody hard to target anything thats moving?

Rich

[Noose_ITO 0]

When I rotate the turret with the Mod running (yep, it's working now) the reticule lags behind. Is that correct, coz it makes it bloody hard to target anything thats moving?

Rich

Have you forgot to reset tracking after shot? For me it is "Alt" key.

[NonWonderDog 0]

Yep, that's how it works in a real M1A1. It was bloody difficult to make it do that, too. To make it stop, press the "look" key or select "DUMP" from the action menu.

It's not as hard to use as it may appear, though. The reticle isn't actually lagging behind. If you put the reticle on a rock, it will stay on that rock.

What's actually happening is that the turret is extrapolating lead from the average turret motion and moving forward by that amount. Whenever you use the traverse controls, the turret will traverse up 35 mils more than you told it to and the reticle will offset itself so that it stays exactly where you told it to go. If you've input the correct range, you will be able to keep the reticle dead-center on a moving target with constant pressure on the controls (use a joystick!). If you are unable to do this, and the reticle floats off the target when you track it smoothly, it means that you've input an incorrect range into the FCS.

Just like in the real thing, it takes 1.5 seconds for the lead to stabilize. This can make things difficult if you're trying to track multiple targets without dumping the lead first. This timer is continuously running, though, so you can track your target for 1.5 seconds before you lase and it will be perfectly stabilized.

The recommended procedure in the real world is to "lase and blaze." Track your target for 1.5 seconds, press the lase button, and immediately press the fire button. Once your target it destroyed, release the controls to dump the lead (press the look key in this mod).

UPDATE:

I was finally able to tilt the turret on the T-72. The profile is now much more accurate, and gun depression is now greater over the front hull (6°13") than over the rear hull (3°47"). Everything works perfectly, and I'm struggling to think of any reason it wasn't like this before. (I probably need to go in and fix the normals, although I didn't even notice until I made that comparison pic.)

I'm currently in the process of incorporating the reticles into the view_gunner LODs of the tanks and adding extra animations for gun elevation and automatic lead. This should let me chop out all the script that's causing desyncs in multiplayer (although I don't know if it will make everything multiplayer compatible). I should be able to put in such things as restricted gun depression over the rear deck, decoupled gun and sight elevation limits, the T-72 gun elevation during reloading, multiple fields of view, and many other exciting things. I already have fixed-size TPD-K1 optics that let you zoom in to the real 8x magnification for firing at targets and out to 4x magnification to see the range spinner and ready light (it's not perfect, but it's the best I can do without butchering the optics).

I'm also trying to redo the HitPoints LOD based on ideas in this thread, but I'm having problems. Specifically, any damage to the turret seems to be applied to the nearest track and the hull as well as the turret selection. I've managed to add new hit zones for the frontal armor, but since they're configured as an unmanned turret the damage to them is transferring to the hull and tracks as well (which means that they're almost useless as armor). Either I've done something very wrong somewhere, or I'm running into a bug. My guess is that, since the turret hitpoints are now in the turret class instead of the vehicle class, damage is being calculated twice -- once for the turret and once for the vehicle itself. I guess I can try to give the hull a million hitpoints and double up all the turret selections with hull, and then use the engine selection for the hull proper.

I've replaced the "motor" selection in the back of the Abrams with hitpoints that apply damage to both tracks--because you shouldn't really be able to make an Abrams explode with one round to the turbine. Curiously, this perfectly screens the hull in the way my frontal armor selections won't; whereas one round to the back will destroy the tracks selection and immobilize the tank, it's almost impossible to destroy the tank by shooting at the rear armor. I'm still trying to make it work the way it's supposed to work.

[Scrub 0]

Great updates! Appreciate and love your work. Just a question, What would cause the LD to act normal in all ways except display 0's for all numbers. The digits (and targeting) are simply not active. The LED activity and action menu items are perfect. It seems very strange to me, and can't figure it out.

[NonWonderDog 0]

The laser has a minimum range of 200 meters in the M1A1, and 500 meters in the T72. If you try to lase anything closer in the Abrams, you will just see flashing zeros. Same for if you lase anything outside of maximum range, 8000 m for the Abrams and 3-4000 meters for the T-72.

If you're seeing zeros no matter what, that means that something's wrong. Either it's not creating the laser projectiles (which wouldn't make sense) or they're hitting your own tank somehow. I haven't tested it at every possible angle at every possible speed, so the latter might happen in some rare cases. What are you doing when you're unable to use the rangefinder?

The hit points are driving me crazy. I think that, rather than applying damage to the nearest hit point as it's supposed to, it's applying damage to every hit point within a two-meter radius no matter what kind of weapon is used. I might be able to work around that, but it's making things very difficult.

And yes. By moving all the hit points 1.5 meters outwards of where they're supposed to be, it works pretty much as it should. It's not quite right and probably a bit too strong overall, but to destroy an Abrams right now it takes 5 M829A2 shells to the glacis plate, 3 shells to the front turret, or 2 shells to the sides or rear. One round to the barrel or the turret bustle will destroy the main gun, however, and one round to the engine compartment will disable both tracks.

I'll try to make it easier to take out the turret traverse, and to destroy the tracks by firing at them. I'll also try to strengthen the front turret armor, since it's supposed to be the strongest part of the tank.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm also trying to redo the HitPoints LOD based on ideas in this thread, but I'm having problems. Specifically, any damage to the turret seems to be applied to the nearest track and the hull as well as the turret selection.

Are you testing with rounds with no indirect dammage?

Indirect dammage used to be the culpit.

[NonWonderDog 0]

I tested rounds with zero indirect damage and zero indirect damage radius, and rounds with indirect damage of one and indirect damage radius of 0.25 (to rule out divide-by-zero). Both damage all hit points within a two meter radius. Maybe I should have tested an indirect damage radius of 1 just in case it takes integer values, but all the default ammo has an indirect damage radius of zero and I want this to work with default ammo. I haven't tested explosive shells.

I don't think this is too much of a hassle, though, now that I've tested it out a couple times. As long as I don't try for too much precision (the weak armor under the gun is right out, but I'll try to put the "motor" just within hit range of it), this will work pretty much as it should, and probably for explosive rounds too.

It's possible that that two-meter radius depends on damage, though... which would destroy pretty much everything I've done. It might be okay, but I need to test this with some weaker rounds...yep. Still a two meter damage radius. Weird.

[.kju 3244]

Not sure if that could be related ... better go the safe route:

Quote[/b] ]explosive = 1;

=>

Quote[/b] ]explosive = 0;

on the ammo you are using for your tests.

As Sh_120_SABOT (20Rnd_120mmSABOT_M1A2) is explosive

in the default ArmA config.

You might have considered that already though.

[NonWonderDog 0]

I don't know if that would change things, but sabot rounds need a small explosive component if you want them to have any impact effects. Otherwise they just look like rifle bullets when they hit the ground. (I'm trying to give them better hit effects for the next version.)

Explosive also determines what percentage of the damage is dependent on kinetic energy. I've set sabot rounds to have explosive=0.01 because that lets me change impact effects and keep the damage scaling. I'm pretty sure the formula for damage is something like this:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">explosive*hit + (1-explosive)*hit*speed^2/typicalSpeed^2

I'm beginning to think that this damage is applied to every hit selection in the model, and scaled quadratically according to the distance to the nearest hit point in that selection. This isn't really visible by default because you'll probably reduce global hit points to zero first, but I've set a high armorStructural in order to get rid of the global hitpoints mechanic. (I just need to balance it so that the hit event fires...)

I probably could have increased the frontal armor just by moving all the hit points towards the rear, but the hit points are so poorly distributed by default that it's better just to start over. It looks like the model creator assumed that damage was applied to the nearest hit point, especially when you look at the way the turret ring is set up on the T-72. It's supposed to have a very narrow ring in which it takes one hit to kill, but since you effectively hit the turret ring with every shot, one hit anywhere will destroy it.

[rstratton 0]

so when can we expect new ballistics for the default arma tank rounds? also wondering why the default arma rounds seem to hit or miss at random?

[NonWonderDog 0]

You're supposed to be able to use NWD_TankBallistics.pbo separately, but I've got a few config errors right now that prevent that. This will be fixed in the new version, which I'll release whenever I get the sights working again. I can't speak to any randomness, except that they do have a bit of dispersion defined.

In other news, I just spent the last few days cobbling together a crappy low-poly model of the M1A1 Commander Weapons Station, because the default one was completely wrong in every way imaginable. It doesn't look that bad, and you can at least look though the vision block now (although I don't really know what the colors should be and I haven't modeled the backup sights). I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the commander's animations, though, since he looks like he's holding a pair of invisible gun handles. I'll see if I can find another animation that fits, I guess...

I'm getting back to the sights now.

[Scrub 0]

The laser has a minimum range of 200 meters in the M1A1, and 500 meters in the T72.  If you try to lase anything closer in the Abrams, you will just see flashing zeros.  Same for if you lase anything outside of maximum range, 8000 m for the Abrams and 3-4000 meters for the T-72.

If you're seeing zeros no matter what, that means that something's wrong.  Either it's not creating the laser projectiles (which wouldn't make sense) or they're hitting your own tank somehow.  I haven't tested it at every possible angle at every possible speed, so the latter might happen in some rare cases.  What are you doing when you're unable to use the rangefinder?

Ahh, so many things going on you forget your awesome beginnings? lol

I'm using the standalone infantry carried designator (GTLD).

Very wierd. The FCS works amazingly well in the same mission.

[NonWonderDog 0]

Ah. The GLTD II works a bit differently than the tank rangefinders, because it has to work as a laser designator as well. The script attempts to actually fire the laser designator in your hands when you use the action menu, instead of spawning and tracking invisible bullets. Unfortunately, the script has trouble finding the laser designator in your inventory if you start as an "SFRecon" soldier. (The basic problem is that "weapons player" doesn't return the "put" and "throw" weapons, but I need to know where the designator is in relation to those two in order to use it. I just assume it's after those weapons, which is always true unless you start as SFRecon--which has the laser designator defined in its weapon list before put and throw.)

To fix it, just go to the gear screen, drop the laser designator, and immediately pick it up again. This will reorder the weapons so my script can find them. I don't think you have to close the gear screen before you pick the designator up.

I've added an init event to the SFRecon soldier that's supposed to reorder the weapons at the beginning of each mission, but apparently it doesn't always work.

New progress report: The damage models are pretty much complete, and I'm very happy with the results. I haven't tested infantry-AT weapons yet, but I can say that I've unloaded 1000 rounds of .50 cal and 2800 rounds of .30 cal into a T-72 without so much as scratching the paint (the BIS T-72 goes up in flames after ~1300 rounds of .30 cal). Even though it's completely immune to small arms, one M829A2 penetrator can completely destroy it (unless it hits far away from the center of mass, where it might just disable it). The front armor is just strong enough to resist one 3BM42 penetrator without a catastrophic explosion, however.

The M1A1HA can withstand multiple M829A2 rounds to the front armor (3 to the hull or 5 to the front turret before destruction), and it's all but immune to 3BM42 on the front aspect. Even so, one round to either track, the turbine, or the transmission will probably disable it, one round to the turret bustle (and sometimes one round to the mantlet) will take out the gun, hits to the side turret can disable turret traverse, and a hit to the top half of the turret can disable the commander's machine gun. A single lucky shot to the sides or rear might just destroy it outright. (All of these effects are possible on the T-72 as well, just not when you're firing 120mm APFSDS at it.)

There's only one big problem with the way I've done things, as far as I can see. It's hard to test, but I have the feeling that my tanks will be about 1000 times too vulnerable to mines. I've put the main hull hit points below the tank, where they are out of reach of small arms and where they cause hull shots to do more damage than turret shots, but they're very close to where mines might detonate. Rather than just throwing a track, mines might destroy the whole tank. I think that's a reasonable price to pay for the vastly better behavior overall, though.

Crew is still invulnerable while inside tanks. I don't know a good way to fix that.

[Scrub 0]

Thanks for the response, I'll try it when I get home. The armor revisions sound like a tankers dream!

[thekreator 0]

When in the commanders position the gunner fires one shell and then does not reload. Is there a manual reload command?

[NonWonderDog 0]

When in the commanders position the gunner fires one shell and then does not reload. Is there a manual reload command?

Hold the command mode key and press the reload key (It's space+R for me). I think you can use the orders menu to do this, too.

I've been trying to write a script to do this automatically, but it just doesn't work.

Does anyone know if animations can have non-linear speeds? I've got a version of the M1 optics that works as an animated part of the model (so it scales properly), but it's either too jerky or too slow. The control-based version will move to wherever I put it from wherever it is in the same amount of time no matter what, but the model-based version insists on moving at a linear speed. Is there any way to make the model animate the same way controls do?

(I think I can work around this by using an instant animation and interpolating the lead for each frame. Lead is only computed at 10 Hz, because it must be computed at a rate lower than the frame rate in order to work. ArmA's ctrlCommit function was interpolating for me before, but now I have to do it in script.)