Fatigue

[Sniperdoc 0]

Just as a bit of background, I was a Corpsman for a Marine Corps STA unit. I'm used to (or rather was used to) carrying a 100 to 120lbs pack on my back and hicking several miles to an objective point in crappy weather and varying types of terrain for extended stay missions. Given my experience, I think the fatigue modeling in this game is absolutely skewed.

First off, I don't see ANY characters in the game carrying anywhere near the weight that I was, but yet when they start running/sprinting after about 10 seconds they're breathing like they were carrying another person on their back in a fireman's carry... that should be fixed.

Secondly, Duckwalking or walking in a crouch. How come the character gets tired so soon from that? Again... they're not carrying a person on their back...??? I know "IN DETAIL" how duckwalking can be difficult after a while... but I can also tell you that we practiced duckwalking until the cows come home... hence that "training" should be reflected by less fatigue when duckwalking.

Zooming in using held single right-click, I'm lost on that one... Why is the breathing sooo loud and why does the aim get more terrible on that one...? Is that aim-fatigue? It should be that when the sights are brought up, that the individual has a breathing pattern... but not progressively worse aim (at least not in the first 15 seconds). IF this, on the other hand, is aim-fatigue... then it should be affecting them MOST when firing/aiming from a standing position, less so from a kneeling position, and least from a prone position... AND...

If it is aim-fatigue that is being modeled, then there should really be a pattern to the rifle raising and falling and not this random jitter. The US military actually has pistol and rifle charts that tell you how a rifle will move (up/down/left/right) depending on how you hold it, pull the trigger, breath patterns, etc... So, if this game is trying to represent such great realism, they should represent aim and aim-fatigue as such. They've already modeled the jitter, but I think it should be a little more realistic and patterned according to real-world examples.

I must say that they've modeled the AK-47 great. It can't hit squat after 100yds and that's just how it should be.

I haven't gotten much further than the 3rd mission on the single player campaign on the default difficulty. But from what I've seen, this game has great potential... but they really need to have a military consultant on their design team. Some of these items, to military or veterans, is just going to be aggravating.

Keep patching and you'll get it right someday...

[max power 21]

They don't have ak-47s in this game, only ak-74s which perform much differently. Also, this doesn't sound like a troubleshooting sort of topic. General would be a better place for it.

You'll find that a lot of decisions in ArmA are based on gameplay balance. You get tired after certain intervals of activity because that's how the devs want to tailor the gameplay.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Secondly, Duckwalking or walking in a crouch. How come the character gets tired so soon from that? Again... they're not carrying a person on their back...??? I know "IN DETAIL" how duckwalking can be difficult after a while... but I can also tell you that we practiced duckwalking until the cows come home... hence that "training" should be reflected by less fatigue when duckwalking.

Yeah, i always found it a bit odd that we can jog forever without getting tired but crouchwalking is at least as tiring as sprinting?

EDIT:(IIRC its just 1 value to change)

[Sniperdoc 0]

Yeah, i always found it a bit odd that we can jog forever without getting tired but crouchwalking is at least as tiring as sprinting?

EDIT:(IIRC its just 1 value to change)

But that's just what I'm trying to say... why do we have to change it...? Shouldn't they have just put it at a proper value to begin with... If I wanted to edit a game's files I would've become a game programmer or developer... but I'm not. I know a little bit of Maya, but that's it.

It's just kind of amazing how there's not a game out there that actually has gotten it right other than America's Army. Even they have a stupid hitbox or randomized shot pattern... but that's just because of the engine they're using... OFP2/ArmA is touting realism... so make it realistic? Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[Sniperdoc 0]

They don't have ak-47s in this game, only ak-74s which perform much differently.  Also, this doesn't sound like a troubleshooting sort of topic.  General would be a better place for it.

You'll find that a lot of decisions in ArmA are based on gameplay balance.  You get tired after certain intervals of activity because that's how the devs want to tailor the gameplay.

Either one... doesn't really matter... neither one can hit a target well after 100 yards... any Security Consultant can tell you that. Even the "Jubas" over there aren't afraid of the AK74/47's... 1st off none of them are properly trained in how to shoot, 2nd they don't even look at what they shoot at... they just hope for best guess, 3rd.... the rifle itself can't hit squat after certain distances. Makes you wonder why most of the casualties are IED's.

Look at it this way... an AK made weapon gets on average a 7MOA vs a M16A2 that gets a 2MOA... both out of the factory. (EDIT: Ok... I guess the concensus of the article below is 4 - 6MOA)

Now, you stick a double barrel shotgun out of car window... that'll have'm scampering away in fear.     But then again... that ain't gonna hit much beyond 100 yds, not even a slug.  

I'd rather stick with my .308 Remington 700 LTR... some Moly-coated boat-tail hollowpoint .308's and it's gone... less than 1/4MOA. Now... I tell you what... as an ex-Corpsman... I sure as hell can't shoot that well, but I can keep practicin'

Here's a cool forum post:

The High Road Forum

Or this one about AK-74's stating that AK-74's have on average a 3-5MOA

Online Survival Magazine Article

Like I said... AK's suck period. No one fears them over there, and why would you if you can't hit anything at a distance? Average firefights range in the 300ft range... (as stated by the article and as several security consultants such as Dynecorp, SSSI, Blackwater, etc may tell you.

[nate77 0]

Just so you know when you hold the right mouse button down to zoom in even more it also activates hold breath, so your aim will be very stable for a few seconds then it will be extremely shakey, since you can't hold your breath for long. It's a stupid control problem, so to fix it simply change the hold breath from the default "hold right mouse button" to something else in the control settings menu. Zooming in far should be much more usefull for you now.

[W0lle 1050]

Moving.

[shataan 1]

I think the zoom hold breathe thing is pooched atm. lol When I am a sniper for example, and hold mouse 2, I HEAR my breathing quicken as if i was running. Holding breathe should be silent.

[Törni 0]

I have shot with of several AK-family rifles including Norinco's AK47 semi-auto guns that they sold to the civilian market. I do not now how third world militia is trained or adjust their sights. Judging from what I have seen they don't consider weapon handling or proper aiming important. It is the attitude that matters  

Most people can hit military targets with 2-3 seconds aiming at 150 meters after a short practice.  So with a trained shooter and adjusted sights 150m is no problem for AK47. Would not like to be at the recieving end. There are 300m shooting pratices for AK47 and people can hit the targets even from that range. So - conclusion - it matters who is doing the shooting.

EDIT: But then again it is totally different to be at a shooting range when nobody is shooting back at you than in a real combat situation when you put yourself in danger every time you expose yourself in order to aim and take a shot.

Quote[/b] ]If it is aim-fatigue that is being modeled, then there should really be a pattern to the rifle raising and falling and not this random jitter.

I agree.

[frederf 0]

I think the zoom hold breathe thing is pooched atm. lol When I am a sniper for example, and hold mouse 2, I HEAR my breathing quicken as if i was running. Holding breathe should be silent.

Holding your breath only works for a short time. It's only when you hold your breath too long that the heavy breathing and misaim happens.

Sniperdoc, have a look in the controls. "Hold breath" is bound to the same key as "Lock or zoom." Unbind hold breath from RMB and you'll notice that you have a much better time shooting without trying to hold your breath for a minute!

If I remember correctly the sprinting and jogging speeds are faster than they seem. I think jogging is a 4:40 1000m, which is pretty fast and tiring. Maybe a slight reduction in stamina penalty for certain movement modes is in order for strict realism to a US-trained soldier. Again BIS is not in the business of making strict realism, BIA is. Mods in the future may address your concerns.

The crouch walk thing is pretty messed up though. Treats the movement like a sprint. Same with the fast-crawl.

[ryankaplan 1]

crouch walking does my nut in. Even if my avatar was a fat bastard, and even if was carrying 100kgs of shite in his backpack, He can still manage hold a fully loaded M240 in aiming position while standing up forever without tiring at all, and he cant crouch walk without getting an asthma attack?

Another thing i've noticed is that the "sprint speed"(Wx2) is slowly reduced as you get tired, but it never drops below the "jogging speed"(W). Surely, as you get more tired, you should slow down until you come to a complete halt or are just walking...no?

[Heatseeker 0]

I found agravating things in Americas Army too... i.e. half of the M249 rounds are blanks and there are absolutely zero ballistics.

Didnt stop me from enjoying the game somewhat..

I've never seen any crouch walking in the combat footage i've seen... im glad that BIS took it into consideration instead of modeling it like the rest does (making it super quiet and acurate). Crouch walking will mess up your knees and back, its just not natural.

I believe they used a czech SF op to capture some of the animations or atleast thats what i read somwhere .

[Jack-UK 0]

I agree with u Sniperdoc...

I also get angry when people say that WE should be the ones to make the game realistic, if its supposed to be the most realistic military game i dont think the community should have to change these values which should be in by default...

Sure i have nothing wrong with people adding more vehicles to the game etc and new features etc. But i dont like modifying config files to make 'realistic values' which were left out in the first place.

[wamingo 1]

Not saying the values aren't off a bit in some areas, but if the game was much more realistic you'd be much more annoyed than you are now.

[dreday 1]

I have shot with of several AK-family rifles including Norinco's AK47 semi-auto guns that they sold to the civilian market. I do not now how third world militia is trained or adjust their sights. Judging from what I have seen they don't consider weapon handling or proper aiming important. It is the attitude that matters

Most people can hit military targets with 2-3 seconds aiming at 150 meters after a short practice. So with a trained shooter and adjusted sights 150m is no problem for AK47. Would not like to be at the recieving end. There are 300m shooting pratices for AK47 and people can hit the targets even from that range. So - conclusion - it matters who is doing the shooting.

EDIT: But then again it is totally different to be at a shooting range when nobody is shooting back at you than in a real combat situation when you put yourself in danger every time you expose yourself in order to aim and take a shot.

Agreed. I think that Sniperdoc has gotten a lot of his facts wrong. First off, if you want to talk about Iraq ("over there") you should remember that the insurgents don't have any AK74s. Even if they did, they clearly lack weapon handling or marksmanship skills to make the most out of the weapons that they are using.

While there is no doubt that the M16 series of rifles are more accurate than the AKs, that should by no means indicate that the AKs are useless. They are quite accurate out to 300-400 m. Basic Warsaw Pact marksmanship drills had their soldiers engage targets out to 300-350 m with the AK/AKM.

To say that no one fears AKs is plain stupid. These rifles have killed more people than any other small arm in the last 50 years. Perhaps, even more than the rest of the rifles put together.

Peace,

DreDay

[smellyjelly 0]

I read on these forums before that the hold breath key really just controls your breathing.

[USSRsniper 0]

I think the zoom hold breathe thing is pooched atm. lol When I am a sniper for example, and hold mouse 2, I HEAR my breathing quicken as if i was running. Holding breathe should be silent.

Holding your breath only works for a short time. It's only when you hold your breath too long that the heavy breathing and misaim happens.

Sniperdoc, have a look in the controls. "Hold breath" is bound to the same key as "Lock or zoom." Unbind hold breath from RMB and you'll notice that you have a much better time shooting without trying to hold your breath for a minute!

If I remember correctly the sprinting and jogging speeds are faster than they seem. I think jogging is a 4:40 1000m, which is pretty fast and tiring. Maybe a slight reduction in stamina penalty for certain movement modes is in order for strict realism to a US-trained soldier. Again BIS is not in the business of making strict realism, BIA is. Mods in the future may address your concerns.

The crouch walk thing is pretty messed up though. Treats the movement like a sprint. Same with the fast-crawl.

No, BIA is not about 100% realism too.... BIS products only to practice tactics.. not how to aim when fatigued.. Fatigue models same everywhere BIS or BIA....

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]Another thing i've noticed is that the "sprint speed"(Wx2) is slowly reduced as you get tired, but it never drops below the "jogging speed"(W). Surely, as you get more tired, you should slow down until you come to a complete halt or are just walking...no?

This is true. I think sprinting and becoming tired should slow you down to your "max sustainable pace" or below if you got really tired sprinting. This would encourage people to use sprinting only during tactical maneuver and not traveling.

Sprinting everywhere is one of my biggest pet peeves in games with that feature. Why?

1. Impossible to keep up with a squad leader that insists on sprinting everywhere.

2. Yourself and teammates die because of accuracy penalties incurred from fatigue. Don't show up to a fire fight tired!

This holds for BF2 as well as ArmA.

[Sniperdoc 0]

DreDay... getting off topic. This topic is about Fatigue... continuing the discussion here:

AK47/74 Rep

[Sniperdoc 0]

I totally agree that sprinting too much should affect your running speed.

I don't understand why EVERY game that has breath patterns for shooting with a sniper rifle or while zoomed in long distance... makes their breaths so dang LOUD!!!! It's like I'm breathin' into a frickin' microphone thats attached to a headset!

@Heatseeker:

Quote[/b] ]"I've never seen any crouch walking in the combat footage i've seen... im glad that BIS took it into consideration instead of modeling it like the rest does (making it super quiet and acurate). Crouch walking will mess up your knees and back, its just not natural."

No, it's not natural. But most military or service units do train to do that. So, where a normal civilian may NOT have the ability to walk in a crouch for a long time... a military person may have a bit better chance at walking in this form for an extended period of time.

The fact that "duckwalking" will mess up your knees and back won't show until you've made Colonel or Captain... But that's what the VA is for...

@RyanKaplan:

Quote[/b] ]crouch walking does my nut in. Even if my avatar was a fat bastard, and even if was carrying 100kgs of shite in his backpack, He can still manage hold a fully loaded M240 in aiming position while standing up forever without tiring at all, and he cant crouch walk without getting an asthma attack?

ROFL That's exactly what the hell I'm talking about!!! A little attention to detail people... just a little bit! We're just asking the dev's to think a little bit about how they're presenting the content...

I don't think I've ever held a rifle up to my face trying to acquire a sight-picture and then started to breathe like I'm trying to flog one off... you know?! Come on!!!

[xnodunitx 0]

Sprinting everywhere is one of my biggest pet peeves in games with that feature. Why?

1. Impossible to keep up with a squad leader that insists on sprinting everywhere.

2. Yourself and teammates die because of accuracy penalties incurred from fatigue. Don't show up to a fire fight tired!

This holds for BF2 as well as ArmA.

Just for the sprinting, never had aim take a hit due to sprinting in bf2.

But yeah I agree, the sprinting right now seems more like civilian sprinting rather than military sprinting, I'm sure militaries around the world train their soldiers day after day to break their boundaries.

[ManDay 0]

BS. Excuse me. Your whole post. IF you are THE HULK I would agree, but I dont think you are.

Tell me you were able to run across the whole island without taking a break with the speed the caracters do and tell me you were able to sprint for hours with only a minimum loss of breath and i will

your statement is ridiculous. i cannot believe you were infantryman. to me, that sounds like the words of a 16yo who drools over attention and never has been doing real inurement before

[Sniperdoc 0]

BS. Excuse me. Your whole post. IF you are THE HULK I would agree, but I dont think you are.

Tell me you were able to run across the whole island without taking a break with the speed the caracters do and tell me you were able to sprint for hours with only a minimum loss of breath and i will  

your statement is ridiculous. i cannot believe you were infantryman. to me, that sounds like the words of a 16yo who drools over attention and never has been doing real inurement before

Say again? I don't understand which one of my statements you're talking about... What part of this post are you talking about?

I love the 25 cent word though... inurement... never heard that one before.

If I'm taking a guess, you misread or misunderstood my post...

1. To be holding a rifle in an aiming position, to acquire a sight-picture, and to breathe like you're beating off isn't realistic.

2. To sit in a crouched position and walk in that position for extended periods of time, can be tiring. But, for a person that has had to practice that position, it becomes a bit easier. And again, I don't expect that individual to sound like they're having an "asthma attack" (good way to put it, whoever you were, sorry can't recall at the time).

3. To run in this game and to experience major fatigue from 30 seconds sprinting when the characters in the game are not even weighed down by a huge amount, isn't realistic. I haven't seen an "avatar" in the game that is carrying a large "mountain-ruck" filled with 6 radio batteries, stripped down MRE's for seven - 10 days, socks, a ranger-roll or sleeping bag, 200+/- rounds for the weapon, AN/PVS-14 (nvg's), couple of double AA's for the nvg's, maybe even the PRC-117 itself (depends on if your platoon likes you or not), emergency kit and maybe even a change of cammies. And if you were really special like me, you got to carry your Unit-5 medic kit on top of that. Oh... I forgot the most important thing... how about six 2-quart canteens. By the way... the Unit-5 is a small rucksack in itself. I had to carry that PLUS the Mountain-ruck. I couldn't even get up off the ground the frickin' thing was so heavy. And just so you know... I wasn't in bad shape. I maxed out the Marine Corp PFT every time... and I ran a 15:53 three miles to boot.

So... if you think for one iota that I don't have the experience to evaluate this game for it's representation of realism then shut the hell up. Because if you haven't been there/done that... then you don't have any reason to talk.

Kids like you really piss me off. Your reading comprehension, your level of grammar, and the fact that you can't type properly shows your age. So, unless you have something constructive to do, other than trying to question my level of experience and my OPINION on the matter... then go away back to your cave.

Instead of bashing people for their opinion, why not just state your counter-points instead of telling them they're 16yo's who drool. It really shows your maturity at that point.

Because at no point did I state that, " was able to run across the whole island without taking a break[...]". So, you may want to take the time, break out a dictionary and a thesaurus, re-read my posts, and make an educated statement. By the way... the [...] means that there was additional text that went along with the statement, but I didn't feel like typing that incomprehensible garbage out for everyone to re-read.

Anyways... I'm outta here. I gotta take a shower and get ready for the Open House on my Condo.

[BlackScorpion 0]

About the loudness of breathing... maybe it's to help you judge the cycle? After all, you don't have the muscles ingame... only way you'll know it is either by looking or listening. And I guess by listening, it's easier to get the cycle, atleast if you've just moved your sights.

And as a sidenote, even though it has it's own topic... Finnish recruits repeatedly score an average of 93 points in their shooting training at 300 or 350 metres with AK-based weapons firing 7.62x39mm ammunition.

[Sniperdoc 0]

About the loudness of breathing... maybe it's to help you judge the cycle? After all, you don't have the muscles ingame... only way you'll know it is either by looking or listening. And I guess by listening, it's easier to get the cycle, atleast if you've just moved your sights.

And as a sidenote, even though it has it's own topic... Finnish recruits repeatedly score an average of 93 points in their shooting training at 300 or 350 metres with AK-based weapons firing 7.62x39mm ammunition.

Well... then post it in the other post that I've seen you in!!! Try to clarify if that's out of 93:100 or 93:1000 would you???