Close Quarters Combat

[judge&jury 0]

I think the real point of this argument lies in the difficulty of accurately simulating close quarters combat.  While it cannot be denied that CQC has a (limited) role in the battlefield, the sheer variety and complexity of possible attacks makes it very hard to accurately capture the realism of fighting.  Why slash and dash if I can jam a knife between my enemy's vertebrae?  Why stab if I can throw?  And why use a knife if I can fight like Chuck Norris?  That is to say nothing of the difficulty of damage modeling - should I limp after taking a blow to the legs?  There are simply too many contingencies to consider, and this ultimately makes CQC impossible to simulate.

A comparison with vanilla flashpoint is quite instructive.  The core of Flashpoint consists of projectile weapons - shooting, throwing, launching, dropping.  All of these weapons can be modeled under a common framework for damage and physics, something that is very convenient from a programming perspective.  Introducing CQC would increase the complexity of the simulation by many orders of magnitude for the simple reason that it would require us to divide entities into even smaller parts.  Should I only take damage from an explosion if the air pressure or debris damages my internal organs?  And how would that affect my battlefield functions?  A new dimension would also have to be added for CQC attack types and effects: penetration, crushing, exhaustion, fracturing, maneuvering, etc, etc, etc.  The list goes on and on.  Such a system is obviously unreasonable given the current state of programming models and technology.

Creating a limited model may not be a solution to the problem.  Including only one aspect of CQC might introduce a bias that would harm the overall realism of the simulation, and thus the quality of the game.  While knives are essential for survival in some battlefield situations, I think we all share a common disdain for CQC in counterstrike.  It's just plain stupid and unrealistic to rip out your knife after you empty your magazine - that's simply not what they were meant for.  Without a wide array of CQC attacks available, soldiers would be unable to respond appropriately to threats and might resort to the old trusty CS knife, thereby destroying the atmosphere BIS works so hard to create.

In the end, unless you want a basic "stab" feature and the baggage that comes with it, then I'm afraid it's unlikely we'll be seeing accurate CQC any time in the near future.  And unfortunately, that's mostly due to technological constraints, not personal preferences about CQC.

[sirex 0]

oh yes, i wasn't saying you should have a block / parry complex hand to hand knife fighting system. -- it'd just be nice to be able to silently poke someone with a knife if you need to. i mean, the time will come when there's the other team occupying a town and you enter the town from the other side, - they might have tank backup, and you wouldnt want to go around blowing holes in everyone, the tank would just hunt you down by sound.

the other option is when you approach a town you hold back, sit.... wait... pick someone off maybe.... wait a bit more.... etc. -- but even then, while all these people are sitting up hillsides sniping, if i were the one getting attacked, i'd ask a team mate to approach them from behind and knife them while i rest up in cover. knifing people really is very satisfying.

there are other things that would be good in the game, maybe even before this were added. - but it'd be nice to see it. once your talking about cutting fences / rope, and hand to hand combat then ok, thats alot of work to add (plus it'd suck i expect, sword fighting games usually do). but poking someone with a knife / bayonet would be nice to see.

if you couldnt knife someone, it'd still be fun to go out of your way to blow someone away point blank, but it loses some of its edge.

on a side note, did ofp1 have claymores ? - i cant remember, but i dont think it did, did it ?

[max power 21]

Silently poke someone with a knife.. while they scream, "Oh, oh my GOOOOOOOD! THERE'S A KNIFE IN MEEEEEE!" and then helplessly pulls the trigger of his assault rifle as you attempt to finish the job, sending up the old familiar sound of automatic rifle fire (if he was negligent about his rifle safety). Therein lies the next set of variables that makes this knife melee notion- how do you simulate a human being stabbed? Knife goes in, life comes out? Not quite. Now, I've never stabbed anyone, much less someone who was an armed soldier... but I can pretty much forsee that stabbing someone, even slitting their throat (or attempting to), would not always be the most silent activity.

[Sepe 1]

Nope, propably not too silent to stab someone, especially if they don't die immediately. But I'd imagine that if you cover the victim's mouth and nose and slit the throat, it will be quite silent. The bad thing is that there's going to be blood - plenty of it if you slit the throat - to be noticed by the other enemies.

Still, I would use a bayonet to kill enemies at close range. Push, pull out, push, pull out.

Thermal vision, IR? Huh? Sure, maybe the US troops would use 'em, but how about the local guerrillas in Sahrani, if you don't want to give any support to mods? Not every AKM clone has a nightvision scope attached into it. Especially if the guerrillas use older weaponry too, like Mosin-Nagant, SKS and other old military rifles.

[dreday 1]

Nope, propably not too silent to stab someone, especially if they don't die immediately. But I'd imagine that if you cover the victim's mouth and nose and slit the throat, it will be quite silent. The bad thing is that there's going to be blood - plenty of it if you slit the throat - to be noticed by the other enemies.

The real problem with stabbing somone is not just how much noise they will make, but how you can sneak up to them unnoticed.  This may seem simple in computer games, but with a competent human sentry it is next to impossible.

Quote[/b] ]Still, I would use a bayonet to kill enemies at close range. Push, pull out, push, pull out.

I have read a couple of WWII combat wound analysis that said that most of the bayonet stabbings had resulted with the bayonet beeing stuck in the victim's limbs.  Apparently human organs tend to tighten up and compress upon punctures.  Back than it was recommended to fire a shot in your victim following a bayonet stabbing.  This would likely blow up an organ and let you recover your weapon.  This raises a question of why would you use a bayonet in the first place...

Quote[/b] ]Thermal vision, IR? Huh? Sure, maybe the US troops would use 'em, but how about the local guerrillas in Sahrani, if you don't want to give any support to mods? Not every AKM clone has a nightvision scope attached into it. Especially if the guerrillas use older weaponry too, like Mosin-Nagant, SKS and other old military rifles.

I don't entirely understand what you are trying to say here.  Yes thermal sights would largely be used by US, while passive/active IR would be used by North Saharis.  Not every weapon would have a night scope attached to it.  Soviet doctrine called for 1-2 weapons per squad to have night scope + the squad leader with IR binoculars. Although we are probably better off discussing this in a different thread.  

Peace,

DreDay

[Lou Montana 101]

The real problem with stabbing somone is not just how much noise they will make, but how you can sneak up to them unnoticed. This may seem simple in computer games, but with a competent human sentry it is next to impossible.

But??! I made it yesterday in Splinter Cell ?!!

Well hem sorry about this one But I'd say yes to "it's better to have it and no use of it than not having it and needing it"; you sprint up to the guy and cut him out, here it's done and it can save your life.

Now take a good look at the corners...

[max power 21]

Do you mean in life or in Armed Assault?

[Chunder 0]

Actually, I just changed my opinion, if there were hand combat, then we would get a mod to make swords, battle axes etc, where we can to a massed assault against enemy machine gun positions and tanks...

lol

[Lou Montana 101]

Do you mean in life or in Armed Assault?

I meant both, it may save your life; but I don't know how to implement a knife in a game : one stab == one kill ? CS cutting ? MGS cutting... if not more

Anyway, if weapon anims are possible, we will see mod with knives, of course... but Star Wars lightsabers too

[Metal Heart 0]

but I don't know how to implement a knife in a game : one stab == one kill ? CS cutting ? MGS cutting... if not more

Since the dammage system is likely something like OFP (dammage, canStand, handsHit)... maybe something like:

head = good chance of death

torso = serious dammage, maybe even death

arm = dammage to hands (shaky aim)

leg = good chance of not being able to walk

And of course varying and incremental bleeding from all hits if it's implemented.

[colt 0]

Hi all.

I started a CQB topic in Game 2 suggestions a while ago. Reading this brought up some new ideas... It's far too late too incorporate ideas for CQB in Arma but it might not be too late to voice you're thoughts for Game 2:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=50501

[scary 0]

Actually, I just changed my opinion, if there were hand combat, then we would get a mod to make swords, battle axes etc, where we can to a massed assault against enemy machine gun positions and tanks...

lol

A WW1 mod then.

[Garcia 0]

I don't want BIS to spend a lot of time adding close combat to the game, but I certainly would have liked if they could make it possible for modders to make close combat addons which works ok. Would have made it possible to create a lot of fun addons. A WWI mod would certainly be much better with the possibility to use close combat, even if it was quite limited.

[benreeper 0]

Have you ever seen 2 AI just look at each other when they are out of ammo and are just 5 to 10 feet from each other? These are the situations that need to be addressed in modern combat and which was the norm for combat from the 19 century and back. What do you do when you're 5 feet from an enemy and you both need to reload? That has happened alot in this game (to me in MP at least). We just need a default weapon that can give dammage without ammo.

--Ben

Yes a laser is not a projectile weapon but can be easily made in OFP. In fact, beam wepons are the easiest to do in games whereas hand wepons are the hardest (to do fully).

[sirex 0]

Nope, propably not too silent to stab someone, especially if they don't die immediately. But I'd imagine that if you cover the victim's mouth and nose and slit the throat, it will be quite silent. The bad thing is that there's going to be blood - plenty of it if you slit the throat - to be noticed by the other enemies.

Still, I would use a bayonet to kill enemies at close range. Push, pull out, push, pull out.

Thermal vision, IR? Huh? Sure, maybe the US troops would use 'em, but how about the local guerrillas in Sahrani, if you don't want to give any support to mods? Not every AKM clone has a nightvision scope attached into it. Especially if the guerrillas use older weaponry too, like Mosin-Nagant, SKS and other old military rifles.

to be honest, imho, if you manage to use a knife on someone, you deserve the reward of getting the advantage of a silent (ish) kill.

in ofp people never really made any sounds when shot. - and its a good thing too, as after 30 minutes of playing those sound samples would get real old, real quick.

[Bloodnick 0]

There's a little thing more too, when playing online and trying to stab soebody with a knife or any other weapons like that, the other players open fire, they don't pull out their knives or try to beat you with the rifle butt   . I'm sorry that I' replying to an old thread like this, but in games like Cod2 and CS I get pretty much p****d of because no one is using CQC, and only shoot you if you approach with a knife. If this is added to AA for a strange reason, don't expect it to be much used, a lot of cowards will just shoot your eye out if you run after them with a shovel     And the AI's hearing capabilities are very humane in ofp games and it will probably be like that in AA to, so they will surely hear you even if you crawl up behind an AI enemy

[GBee 0]

in games like Cod2 and CS I get pretty much p****d of because no one is using CQC, and only shoot you if you approach with a knife. If this is added to AA for a strange reason, don't expect it to be much used, a lot of cowards will just shoot your eye out if you run after them with a shovel

Well what would you do in real life? No-one other than a film character is stupid enough to go hand to hand when they have a gun.

[Commando84 0]

i've used the rifle butt in cod 2 many times and killed players, though that was in lan but its almost same thing as online

you see a enemy sniper sniping your comrades down and you want him to die in a humilating way then you rifle butt him with shift attack. and situations where you run out of ammo in a 1 vs 1 close combat fight then you take the pistol and run around and shoot and miss and stuff and then you grab the rifle wich takes forever to reload and run up and shift key attack or the handgun

[Scrub 0]

Just to add one more tidbit to knife kills, I'd think the best use of a knife is to lay in ambush, not assault, a single isolated soldier. So more skill would be necessary, as the post above IMO is absolutely true. I believe letting them close with you (needs good planning/intel/luck) has an infinitely better chance of working.

[Sturmwolf 0]

Um, arent bayonets forbidden by Genfs Convention of somewhat after WW2, because as being blunt, not sharp, they caused wounds too brutal or sth? Like crossbows in Medieval times being long forbidden by the pope because they inflicted too bad wounds or sth?

[Sturmwolf 0]

BTW, never compare CoD to OfP. Thanks.

Sorry for doubleposting.

[Fork122 0]

Um, arent bayonets forbidden by Genfs Convention of somewhat after WW2, because as being blunt, not sharp, they caused wounds too brutal or sth? Like crossbows in Medieval times being long forbidden by the pope because they inflicted too bad wounds or sth?

I don't think so, the British and the Americans still use them.

It could be possible that sawtooth bayonets that have little notches cut into them are banned. Those would leave more jagged wounds instead of a cleaner one.

Edit: Some pictures (off of eBay) to help explain what i'm talking about:

Quote[/b] ]because as being blunt, not sharp

Bayonets seem pretty sharp to me

[Garcia 0]

There's a little thing more too, when playing online and trying to stab soebody with a knife or any other weapons like that, the other players open fire, they don't pull out their knives or try to beat you with the rifle butt   . I'm sorry that I' replying to an old thread like this, but in games like Cod2 and CS I get pretty much p****d of because no one is using CQC, and only shoot you if you approach with a knife. If this is added to AA for a strange reason, don't expect it to be much used, a lot of cowards will just shoot your eye out if you run after them with a shovel     And the AI's hearing capabilities are very humane in ofp games and it will probably be like that in AA to, so they will surely hear you even if you crawl up behind an AI enemy

1:

Honestly, if you get pissed of because people shoot you when you are running at them with a knife, you should rethink your aggression, and rethink your involment in OFP/ArmA. Do you really think that if a brit in Iraq had a Iraqi guy with a knife running at him, that the brit would throw down his weapon, pull out his knife and go "OMG!11!! 1337z0r, I'm so gonna knife you!"?

2: It's probably your stealthabilities that's not good enough. I don't have any problems sneaking up on AI as long as they got their back to me. Actually I crawled into the feet of an AI once, without him noticing me...

[Jerbo12 0]

um who wants to do cqb when u can just shoot em sure u waste a bullet but it saves time and energy :P but yea cqb would be kool but uhh not every single is gonna be in the game

[Metal Heart 0]

Quote[/b] ]It could be possible that sawtooth bayonets that have little notches cut into them are banned. Those would leave more jagged wounds instead of a cleaner one.

Why would they be banned, because they hurt people? That doesn't make any sense to me, it's not any more or less evil than stabbing them with a normal blade, beating them up with a foldable shovel or just the good old shooting them in the face.

But what's the purpose of having sawtooth bayonet anyway? I think you are supposed to make as smooth cut as possible so it would take longer to stop bleeding and heal.