release over steam

[-kelet0r 0]

75% don't want Steam by itself and most voted blindly

ask the question in a new poll - would you be in favour of Arma being digitally distributed alongside the traditional retail distribution? - and the results will speak for themselves

Quote[/b] ]It seems that 75.65% of the people answering that topic agree with me. That makes a lot of 'technophobes' dont you think so?

although i have to agree with you - its the type of person this forum seems to have attracted over the years and I as a a relative newcomer find disconcerting

BIS would do well to distance themselves from the majority views on this forum - many seem to be anti-progress in a very strong way

After all as I've said before I was told here by more than a few that Armed Assault being a commercial success in 2006 would be a bad thing

boggles the mind

[Kode 0]

75% don't want Steam by itself and most voted blindly

ask the question in a new poll - would you be in favour of Arma being digitally distributed alongside the traditional retail distribution? - and the results will speak for themselves

I have no problems it would be digitally distributed, but not with steam, and I think many people agree with that.

There is a big difference. I just want to download it, and install it, to then play it, without any other program being installed or modify it.

A release in a torrent is just fine for me. I just don't see Arma released on steam anyway(and the story that it costs less is not that true)

[AliMag 0]

@$kelet0r

Hey, chill out man. You're taking it way to personnally.

This is just an exchange of views on a public forum about video games. Nothing more.

Everyone is entitle to his opinion and none of my words were directed to you personnally. If I've offended you in any way I apologize because that was certainly not my intention.

I have nothing against online distribution without being force to open an account and/or validate online for people who wants it. As long as I still have the choice to buy my cd/dvd of the game if I choose to. It's that freedom that most of us dont want to lose.

I think the general feeling is mostly resumed in the previous post by Kode:

Quote[/b] ]I have no problems it would be digitally distributed, but not with steam, and I think many people agree with that.

There is a big difference. I just want to download it, and install it, to then play it, without any other program being installed or modify it.

[XCess 0]

Totalliy agree with AliMag and Kode.

And btw...how is the hatred of a single program technophobia? That would be like saying just because I don't like Quake 4 I'm a technophobe. I use the internet, I buy things online, I check in at an airort using a computer, I am all for the development of all kinds of technology. I'm using a computer right this second.

How exactly does this make me a technophobe? Steam is simply a waste of space. I don't like it. Does it make me a techophobe? I don't think so. I have no fear for Steam, just hate for it.

[shinRaiden 0]

@$kelet0r

It seems that 75.65% of the people answering that topic agree with me. That makes a lot of 'technophobes' dont you think so?

Keep the spirit man

Cheers

Opt-in surveys are not at all accurate of actual community sentiment. Rather, they tend to attract those opposed to the premise of dicsussion, and those who view that opposition as irrational and misguided.

A more reliable survey would be to pay valve to inject code into the steam survey that would look for the presence of any flashpoint executables, and then compare that with other market and distribution data. Of course that's an 'unacceptablely intrusive' method of determining how many steam accounts also have OFP, and doesn't accurately size the OFP population either.

Now if BIS makes a tool that does a hardware survey as has been discussed, it would be technically possible to use that to detect Steam. Also intrusive, but again the only way to reliablely aquire accurate statistics. But how to 'compel' the community to get sufficently accurate sampling? Back to the intrusive arguement.

So there's lots of people that don't like Steam-The-Product. But there's lots of people that have Steam-The-Product. Do all the games distributed by Steam-The-Product require all the features of Steam-The-Product? Absolutely not, and that's what most of the posts here are ignorant of.

Example one : Darwinia

Darwinia was (and iirc still is) released completely independent of Steam-The-Product. You can purchase, download, and use Darwinia without having an account on Steam-The-Product.

However, to get an increased market awareness, more potential customers, and to outsource the order fulfillment process (server download hosting, content securing, and sales), they chose to also distribute via Steam, as have many other developers.

Example two : HL1

HL1 comes in three versions, standalone, hooked into Steam-The-Product, and hooked into Steam-The-Product on Source. I play standalone only because a Keygen got my CD-Keys and Valve can't be helpful because it's really a publisher problem. It would be far more lazy-way convienent to have them all in Steam-The-Product, but I have to do without since I'm cheap.

Where this discussion has fallen off the rational discussion bandwagon is that people can't distinguish between Steam-The-Product and Steam-The-Concepts.

[Dwarden 1125]

Example three:

in this interview http://firingsquad.com/features/doug_lombardi_valve_interview/

there is nice line (in bold)

FiringSquad: Even more attention is being made over Valve's Steam service. Has Valve been surprised by the amount of interest in using Steam to

distribute games?

Doug Lombardi: What's been surprising is how successful Steam has been for the 3rd parties. The Red Orchestra team saw their project become profitable through Steam pre-orders alone. It's always nice to turn a profit before your game has shipped.

really nice to hear that INDIE developer turned theirs project into profit "BEFORE" the game even shipped and it shows how excelent the idea of digital distribution is ...

[westy159 0]

I dont know what steam is but im guessing from the posts that its a way of downloading games from the net for a fee rather than buying a disc in a box at a shop. I dont like the idea of downloading games. mainly because i have an unstable wireless net connection with a slow downloading rate. What happens if i pay my Å30 and im downloading. 5 hours later is 40% done and my connection gets cut. Now i gota pay another 30 quid to start downloading again. What happens if i run out of room on my hard drive and i decide to uninstall the game and put it back on in the future when i feel like doing so. How do i do that?

[tkokid 0]

i downloaded the bf2 expaansion pack form ea.(CRAP} you can unistall and insatall as many times as u need. as for complete delete of file ??

[Dwarden 1125]

in past months there was way too many harsh and untrue posts about Steam in tons of other threads so i wrote this small sum up ...

and i'm NOT in ANY way working for VALVE (just customer)

Steam store is now undergoing major redesign changes , here You can see yourself beta version (it's public knowledge so no leak)

You can test it Yourself in realtime

http://storefront.steampowered.com/v/

refreshing store page You can see every game published on Steam gets random showcase ...

made sure you stop at  http://storefront.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=browse&

to notice sections "FREE" "1-10" "10-20" "20-30" "30-40" USD

seems like Valve became listening more to end customers, cybercafes and developers / partners ... they hired additional staff for some areas ...

and there are many goodies for developers too like ability to implement stats (allowing e.g. tweaking of single player games to avoid "unlock-able" puzzle issues asap) ... short example

yes i know there are some major points people "dislike at Steam" and complain

1. there is NO nifty painted box, NO physical CD/DVD medium NO, manual, etc ... simple boxed version is better

A1: for example Red Orchestra Distribution in Czech Republic, boxed version contain only small manual (no printed version of great PDF manual You download via Steam as part of game)

* - and X3 Steam version from Egosoft is w/o StarForce while retail one not

2. games at Steam cost is same or higher than boxed versions in stores ...

A2: i  use for example Red Orchestra Distribution in Czech Republic, boxed version cost nearly 2 times more than

* - yet the price drops at Steam slower than in stores , so for picking up old games at ultra cheap price retail wins , for now ...

3. i can't play offline mode or single player w/o internet connection

A3: untrue , all you need is start steam and switch it into offline mode allowing SP games to play

* - LAN games can be problem but that depends on title

4. .gcf file format slows down games

A4: not true, Steam newly uses for 3rd party games virtual driver with close to zero performance hit keeping game files in theirs native tree structure in file system (e.g. X3 differences between old retail and new Steam version are only by executable and some libs)

5. boxed version of game need to be distributed with Steam too thus forcing users to use Steam if they want play game

A5: as You can see old games which never needed Steam are now re-published on Steam, there is no need to think it can't be done in exact opposite way ...

* - for MP games all what's need are server logics able accept both versions (plus anticheat must take in mind some file differences)

** - game can be first on Steam then on retail market and completely standalone (Steam acts just as distribution for first release wave)

6. Steam game must use VAC anticheat

6A. Game developers decide them self if they want use VAC or not

* - tempting offer is You save cost from developing own anticheat + if cheater is banned then his catched Steam account can be banned from game (e.g. can play only on non VAC servers) or whole Steam service (close to PB HW ban) ...

7. Steam supports only CC and no Paypal etc ...

A7: main reason is security and PayPacl can't be considered as secure as CC ... yet more payment options should appear in future ...

8. I buy my game and download is slow, or this demo pre-load freeze as servers are overloaded ...

8A. Yes this issue is known and happens rarely e.g. Valve learned theirs lesson with Red Orchestra Ostfront free 5 days trial as bw block dedicated was lower than demand but they fixed it ...

9. i don't like this game i want my money back but Steam not allow this

9A. this is one of true ones, yet next time get demo or learn more about product You going to buy

10. Valve are greedy and they are not different from normal greedy publishers

10A. Most of companies in biz are existing to generate profit, somehow You need pay own staff, servers and so on but consider this:

- if You buy 40USD retail box, be sure developing studio sees income from that between 5-10 USD (and that only if they lucky)

- if You buy 30USD steam version of same, be sure same studio sees something between 10-25 USD

11. You cant disable automatic updates

11A. You can disable updates on per game basis

12. Steam spying on me ...

12A. Only informations which are useful for game developers (hardware configs, drivers etc) and only in anonymous way (and you get informed about anyway) ...

13. Steam is unsecure and my account can be easily stolen

13A. well if You put stuff into vault room of bank there is always small chance someone steal it, yet both bank and Valve got insurance for this situation

14. i can use Steam only on my computer, no backup, no transfer to other computer etc.

14A. Games are TIED to account and this account can be used at any computer all around world whenever You want plus You can backup game You want when needed ...

15. Steam is perfect ...

15A. untrue , i myself use Steam since beta, over long time Steam really improved a lot YET i know about some bugs and problems BUT to my suprise Valve listen and REALLY fixes "reported" problems and ADDs features suggested ... so there is hope

+ bonuses for developers are w/o question:

easy way to run trials / demos of product

easy way of updating products

way higher income from sales

etc.

EDIT to add important NOTE:

You can release worldwide prior Xmas w/o fearing publishers/distribution hitch

also Steam re-publish games for other publishers like Strategy First Inc. and it seems ATARI titles gunna appear there soon too ...

p.s. to "west159" post ... You can backup Your steam files to DVD anytime, You can transfer Your account anytime anywhere else and use there and You pay only once for single license on single account ... license stays tied to account even if You uninstall/erase it from HDD ...

p.p.s. sorry for "resurrecting" this thread but it was always linked by moderators TO USE so don't kill me

[coderdfox 0]

While I'm a "I want a box" kinda guy. If BI cant find a publisher because of (PC game sales are down, no money, controling Pubs like EA) I say go at it how you want. Box or download I'm still getting it.

Cause if the games being held back because of a little box with a DVD in it then that would suck

[Journeyman 0]

Hmmm.... In an ideal world where everyone has broadband and a credit card account! These situations may apply to you and me, but what about the rest of the world?

Also have they fixed LAN play yet? I want to play coop with my wife; I'd rather not have to buy the game twice ... not that BIS wouldn't deserve it!

And no I'm not a technophobe! Online delivery is OK for me, but I want to see it in a box as well, if not only for those less fortunate than us with our high-speed Internet connections and little plastic cards!  

[Scrub 0]

While I'm a "I want a box" kinda guy. If BI cant find a publisher because of (PC game sales are down, no money, controling Pubs like EA) I say go at it how you want. Box or download I'm still getting it.

Cause if the games being held back because of a little box with a DVD in it then that would suck  

^What he said.^

[ShadowY 0]

Here we go again.....

[oyman 0]

I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k.

[Journeyman 0]

I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k.

^What he said!^  

I'm lucky that I have 8 meg broadband, but I'm not a selfish person and neither is BIS!  

[.kju 3245]

Quote[/b] ]10A. Most of companies in biz are existing to generate profit, somehow You need pay own staff, servers and so on but consider this:

- if You buy 40USD retail box, be sure developing studio sees income from that between 5-10 USD (and that only if they lucky)

- if You buy 30USD steam version of same, be sure same studio sees something between 10-25 USD

good summary. still i would like to see some evidance for this data.

[Dwarden 1125]

I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k.

nothing prevents You to download that somewhere else and back on DVD and transfer to ur 56k home computer ...

and like i said retail box can be released when possible ... oh well it's like running in circle trying to explain same thing again and again ...

dear Q , try ask some developers maybe they tell You such data if they trust You

[Guest Ti0n3r]

I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k.

Hey, I downloaded Half-Life 2 & CSS with 56k

... hehe

[COBRA EATER 0]

Quote[/b] ]10A. Most of companies in biz are existing to generate profit, somehow You need pay own staff, servers and so on but consider this:

- if You buy 40USD retail box, be sure developing studio sees income from that between 5-10 USD (and that only if they lucky)

- if You buy 30USD steam version of same, be sure same studio sees something between 10-25 USD

good summary. still i would like to see some evidance for this data.

try this out for size.

no box= 0 USD

no dual layer dvd = 0 USD

no paper for manual = 0 USD

+ no excess packaging = 0 USD

--------------------------------

more profit for game DEVS

its easy logic but I'm not shure of the total extra profits.

[Daniel 0]

It does limit your target audience a though. And boxes are a form of advertising.

[VISTREL 0]

If BIS could release the game early but using Steam then my vote goes for steam.

[wamingo 1]

Now I haven't tried steam because I prefer boxed games, even if it's a dull dvd box with no manual. So the following may be a little unfounded and off but...

My main worry is that steam will add an extra layer that won't only require more development time but also be another layer of errors to be had.

OFP is already a very complex game. We may not want some 3rd party casing or dependencies on top of it, if we can avoid it.

But like I said, I don't know if it's such a big deal or not. I just worry that it could be.

However if it was simple and still as profitable as you claim, wouldn't everyone would jump on the wagon? So obviously something is not.

[Dwarden 1125]

Now I haven't tried steam because I prefer boxed games, even if it's a dull dvd box with no manual. So the following may be a little unfounded and off but...

My main worry is that steam will add an extra layer that won't only require more development time but also be another layer of errors to be had.

OFP is already a very complex game. We may not want some 3rd party casing or dependencies on top of it, if we can avoid it.

But like I said, I don't know if it's such a big deal or not. I just worry that it could be.

However if it was simple and still as profitable as you claim, wouldn't everyone would jump on the wagon? So obviously something is not.

well out of all games on Steam

there was small problem with ROO because of new filesystem driver but it was resolved within days (there was public beta where users were able decide if use old stable way or new yet unstable) and ROO was first game using it so that's quite ok result ...

and there are still some problems with Earth2160 but that's mainly because game itself is very "buggy" ...

rest just work

about problem with no box, read point 5

[COBRA EATER 0]

somethin I didn't think about before was, what about mods, and addons, would we have to DL them through steam? How woluld you install them properly? If steam auto DL's these mods and addons, how would you get rid of the ones you dont want? just another thought, this is why I dont post alot cause i can never make up my mind.

[Dwarden 1125]

 somethin I didn't think about before was, what about mods, and addons, would we have to DL them through steam? How woluld  you install them properly? If steam auto DL's these mods and addons, how would you get rid of the ones you dont want? just another thought, this is why I dont post alot cause i can never make up my mind.

for mods which are standalone addons to game it's same like with HL games you can ADD / REMOVE them on the will w/o any issue...

with mods modding game files (e.g. executables) it can be issue for MP mode but like i said Valve is quite flexible laterly and for such title like ArmAs special workarounds can be done

future bonus of Steam is MOD Distribution (either using part of Steam server backbone or p2p system like bittorrent) ...