Zeus Gaming Nights

[zwobot 22]

Oh right I should have said that Jinef.

My ingame name is zwobot. Well it was quite annoying last night as I wasnt able to play the first mission and the mission after "Hunt".

I think I missed some Mapfact addons, but I wonder why they are not in the @zcommon package you can download via ofpwatch

[Tipsi 0]

http://panik.magsairsoft.com/SatNight.wmv

Good night last night, heres a vid of what went on...

[xawery 0]

Great games last night gentlemen. "Hunted" was very tense, and riding on top of BTR while police helis zip past overhead was great fun!

The "four towns" A&D proved to be very atmospheric and it seemed to offer tactical freedom never seen before in an OFP PvP mission (at least by me). However, this experience was sabotaged by a rather annoying tendency: human pwnz0r.

Now, I am not quite sure what the Zeus policy on human pwnz0r is, but what's the point of simulating a company-size engagement if it is being reduced to piece-meal skirmishes of 3 vs 3? I understand the logic behind leaving most of one's AI's in a safe spot an moving out with a small team: it limits casualties. However, it totally destroys the immersion in my opinion. OFP is all about scale, after all. Can you imagine the sheer coolness of defending hill 120 against a big fuck-off assault performed by an entire platoon? Actually having to retreat in order not to lose an entire rifle squad?

Naturally, there is no way we can actually force op cmd's to approach the game in this way, but Zeus seems to be the perfect group of people for such tacit (or explicit) agreements. After all, when one joins the Zeus server, some basic rules automatically apply (no ramboing, listen to your CO, etc. etc.) The beauty of it is that these rules are being obeyed voluntarily: there is no rule-police or any harsh penalties should one not comply. People just do, because the Zeus community is a mature one and everyone understands that these ground rules are a prerequisite for a good game.

Given all this, I don't think it should be too hard to implement a "no human pwnz0r" policy. Naturally, I don't know how others feel about this, but in my opinion it would add a lot to the immersion and action intensity.

Just so nobody thinks I had no fun at all yesterday, I would like to paraphrase Jinef:

"At one point in the game, I would like to surround Balls and probe them gently."

The execution of the plan suffered a slight delay, because everyone spent an entire minute laughing after Jinef uttered these memorable words

[lwlooz 0]

I completly agree with you there Xawery(on this topic). But "human p3wnzering" is due to "historical" reasons.

Back in the day everyone walked around with his little squad and we had this funny platoon engagements.

What one experienced there tho was two things:

1. The game started to desync horrible (As seen yesterday)

2. Your AI were sitting there doing fuckall getting killed. The most

memorable I had was when a section(18 or so AI with 2 humans) I leaded was getting wasted by one rifleman in a bush.Not a Machine Gunner,a Rifleman.

Then Mr.Og came along and went like: "Wait a second.. If I stick my AI in the forrest I have the most combat effective force by just sticking humans in bushes"

So,thats how we end up.And according to Mr.Clausewitz both sides in a war go for the utmost extremes to win it.

Now I don't agree with that at all. But as long as BIS doesn't fix the AI lack of being able to survive against humans for just 5 seconds , you will see that. And so far we haven't seen any evidence that ArmA increases AI survivability.

At least it will give us the ability to have platoon-sized,company-sized engagements without any desync.

So in Short: Human P3wnzering sole cause is the limitations of the OFP Engine because us few actually need the AI to fight for us and not use it as target practice like in usual OFP missions

[Jinef 2]

I am formulating a fuller reply to this, as is looz. My first inclination is that we need a key point strategy with multi-coloured charts and graphs. We also need a comprehensive tutorial on AI leadership, as this is a most important part of these battles. AI can be very effective if told to be so, they can also be entirely useless (default setting most usually).

[ryankaplan 1]

it has nothing to do with ai being shit. All you have to do is tell the bloody commmanders to not apply human pwnzor...the most obvious criminals of this being tipsi and og, and set the ai skill to 1.0. This way, the ai are stupid, but they are damn good shots, and fast at that as well. I made a thread about it in zeus forums, but as with any and many 'shall we incorporate [insert idea here]?' suggestion, it was largely ignored by the majority and went to the bottom of the virtual ocean fast.

For me, the game was rather frustrating as a platoon leader, simply because my weapons squad leader was rather lacking in english skills(no offense meant). The mission needs to be reverted to 'defend until random order is given' style, and the whole point system needs to be ditched in my opinion. other than that, very nice games indeed.

I believe the mission should be converted into a simple template, as it has a few very nice things, namely the 'alt-click on markers for info' and the 'defend until orders given'.

Anyway, i be off to turkey for the next 2 weeks, so see you people later.

[Tipsi 0]

it has nothing to do with ai being shit. All you have to do is tell the bloody commmanders to not apply human pwnzor...the most obvious criminals of this being tipsi and og...

I have to disagree with you there Ryan. It does have to do with the Ai being so shit. They are very shit. The reason why me and Og resort to these tactics is because the AI count for the most of the casualty rate, and since their absolutely stupid and CANNOT think for themselves and therefore getting raped by one human (with or without an AI squad), its a necessary strategy to hide the AI (so they dont get raped by humans) to have a better chance at becoming victorious.

I do condone it, since its really unfair for people who DO use AI, and it does indeed ruin the OFP experience as Celery explained. Since we never officially agree between the OC's, NOT to use the Human Poonzor tactics, its most likely that the enemy is going to use it, so I will use it too. (Fighting fire with fire)

Maybe if we both agreed before hand, not to use human poonzor, then it wont happen. Zeus admins can referee each team, making sure that human poonzor will not happen.

The new system Jinef and Looz are making sounds interesting and will hopefully quell Human Poonzor, as well as ramboing.

Have a nice time in Turkey.

[xawery 0]

I do think Ryan is right. If you use the AI properly, they can be a very valuable asset. An AI squad with a human leader equipped with binoculars can be very deadly indeed. There is no way a single human armed with a rifle (not with the grenade-spam GL) can take out a whole squad.

Lwlooz, I understand what you are saying about "historical reasons", I know them quite well. In original OFP and various other popular mods, a single player could fire with such deadly accuracy that moving in groups was deemed unwise. However, in WGL it takes sever bullets to actually kill a single soldier. One must thus be a true master of zen to take out an entire squad on one's own - it simply takes too much bullets to kill a single soldier. Thus the historical grounds for human pwnz0r are proven to be no longer valid, as all the missions on Zeus are run under WGL 5.1.

Naturally, the issue of the AI remains - they do die easily, especially if one is on the move. However, this is not unrealistic - if the enemy is stationary and has the element of surprise, then a moving squad is going to be toast (vide all A&D's on Zeus). However, if two relocating enemy squads meet, the outcome is different, as everyone is at the same disadvantage. The primary tactic in succesful AI commanding is: as soon as you spot the enemy: stop, drop and target. Halt your AI, have them drop to the ground, and seek out individual targets. If you can do this, the AI become an indispensable asset. If you just run around dragging the AI behind you: yes, they are going to die. Is it unavoidable? No. Does it require practice? Yes.

On a final note, if we all agree to use our full squads instead of keeping backups for respawns, we will all be at the same (dis)advantange. In other words, it won't matter. But it will contribute to a better experience and a larger sense of scale.

[Jinef 2]

the obvious problem occurs when the next logical step occurs - targeting human leaders.

[lwlooz 0]

I wished you were right. And all of the AI's problems could be fixed with some better leading. But the truth of the matter is in my view anyways(Being sad enough to play hundreds of A&D's) that the reasons people having given up leading their AI in a complex fashion which would improve their survivability a bit is that it still isn't good enough. Humans behind a ridge,vehicles,some good rock,bush can very well take out whole squads even in WGL 5. That is also the reason why in Coops one Squad of 8 fights against Battalions of russians and 20 T-80's.The AI just isn't fast enough,they don't know what shooting at an area is and half the time you can't assign them a target etc etc.

Yet:

If people agreed to only play "I sit here with my binoc and let the AI do my fighting" like I usually do unless the enemy can't be seen by the AI and only by me,we would get fun fights. Yet it is far to late for me to bother to think about any script or mission design solution for this.I am personally just going to wait for ArmA and see how you can have proper modern warfare battles there even tho it seems to be designed for "graphical-whoring SF-Snipers take on everything in l33t zodiacs and Little-Birds" type of thing,but lets see how we can use the engine for our purposes

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]the obvious problem occurs when the next logical step occurs - targeting human leaders.

Seems very realistic to me, don't you think? Squad leaders should be the first target, as the death of the leader seriously hampers the squad's effectiveness, until the second in command takes over. In game terms, it takes the player some time to respawn in another soldier and retake control of the squad. Seems like a good simulation to me.

Quote[/b] ]If people agreed to only play "I sit here with my binoc and let the AI do my fighting" like I usually do unless the enemy can't be seen by the AI and only by me,we would get fun fights. Yet it is far to late for me to bother to think about any script or mission design solution for this.

The whole point is, "scripts or mission design solutions" aren't necessary to enforce this. The Zeus experience relies on so many agreements which are not enforced by game design, i.e. dead men don't talk, obey the leader etc. The Zeus bunch are mature people, not l33t brats who need to be arm-twisted into obeying 'the rules'. If we all just agree to not use human pwnz0r, I think the Zeus experience will change for the better.

Otherwise, what's the use of making large-scale missions? Just to increase the players' respawn pool?

[Jinef 2]

Well, AI can be very effective against hoomans.

I stuck AI in those stopped convoy missions (all on skill 1) and I had me MG gunner watch the approach to town. This AI ripped rabbit to pieces at 300 metres on full auto, which was nice.

[noccie 0]

Had some fun games yesterday, though i should say sorry for disconnecting on the last mission..I was the Chinook pilot, but my ISP decided to reset my connection just as the map loaded. Hope it didnt take too long to shoot my AI and take over the chopper

About the human pwning. I dont really mind it that much.

I find human's having to aim and shoot themselves more fun then using a binoc and ordering your AI to kill someone from 600m away.

Used it in the same mission where Jinef's AI shot rabbit. My squad flanked the town from the right and i spotted Dynx on a hillwith 2 of his AI. He was out of normall drawing distance, but when i used binocs i could just see him. Ordered my AI to shoot and sure enough both the rifleman and machinegunner openend up and killed Dynx's whole squad in a few shots.

Having to close in till i had a decent visual and a chance of hitting him myself would have been alot more exciting..but i wanted to try out the AI pwnzoring u all advocate,and it was rather disappointing to me. No skill from my side involved whatsoever, simply zoom in and click ,the AI does the rest from insane ranges.

[noccie 0]

double post

[og.. 0]

I wasnt present last night.

Quote[/b] ].... but i wanted to try out the AI pwnzoring u all advocate,and it was rather disappointing to me. No skill from my side involved whatsoever, simply zoom in and click ,the AI does the rest from insane ranges.

Does that mean AI is set to skill 1 now? Loozie? In that case GOOD.

I think there are two schools of thought when it comes to these type of battles noccie. A few of us actually want the squad hierarchy to work as in real life: the commander assigns targets and make sure everyone gets their job done right, INSTEAD of doing the shooting himself exclusivly.

If we can finally get AI to be deadly as you described then more power to it IMO. Theres more action, its faster, more deadly and much more close to what we actually should be seeing. Yes you dont get to shoot THAT much yourself, but there are other missions for that. It is still immersive and fun.

The skill involved in that comes from the overall OC, who when engaged in a skirmish, knows where to put his squads for maximum firepower.

Ive been using human pownzor more or less as a protest against the low skill AI. Turn it up!! We have dispersion now, not as in FDF, so more power to the artificial soldier.

As far as the rumours Ive heard about the respawn now being 10 minutes: I get your point looz, but this isnt going to work in a game lasting 60 minutes.

How about progressive penalties like 1 minute respawn first time killed, 2 minutes the 2nd, and 3 minutes as the final penalty for the rest of respawns. Schweinhund.

[xawery 0]

My sentiments exactly Og. If you want to shoot shit up, Zeus offers small-scale missions. If you want to simulate larger engagements, where maneuvering and anticipating the enemy's next move is the key, than AI squads are a necessity. Applying human pwnz0r to such missions totally negates their purpose.

Boy, what a reflective, introspective community Zeus can be

[B-2-0 0]

All this talk of 'applying human pwnz0r'....It's hillariously ridiculous....what on earth are you all going on about??

The fact that it is easy for a human to waste a squad of AI?

Well aside from having AI skill set to 1 and good command by their human commander (and i believe that with good command an AI squad can be very effective against humans) there is very little that can be done and setting up a 'no human pwnz0r' policy is absolutely ludicrous. You can't tell people how to play their game in that way.

The main issue in my opinion, is that because people feel that the AI are not effective enough they leave them behind just so they can respawn into them when they die. This is lame and is what we should be stopping people from doing.

[xawery 0]

The main issue in my opinion, is that because people feel that the AI are not effective enough they leave them behind just so they can respawn into them when they die. This is lame and is what we should be stopping people from doing.

This is what he have consistently been referring to as 'human pwnz0r'. It's obvious that a human is better than the AI, but what we have been discussing is the practice of leaving the AI behind and going solo.

I'm glad we agree

[B-2-0 0]

I see. So why not say so instead of talking in code.

The term 'human pwnz0r' doesn't exactly say "People leaving AI behind to spawn into" to me.

Well as you (i think) said before, the people who play on Zeus are good enough to not leave AI behind via a gentleman's agreement. We couldn't exactly enforce any kind of policy to combat it.

I personally think that it is disadvantageous to leave your squad behind....(ok, your actual time playing the mission may be shorter)....and i would challenge anyone to try and locate then take out me and a squad of AI on their own.

[xawery 0]

I see. So why not say so instead of talking in code.

The term 'human pwnz0r' doesn't exactly say "People leaving AI behind to spawn into" to me.

Goddammmit man read my initial post on the subject! It's crystal clear. Crystal you hear me?! CRYSTAL!

Incidentally, I would like to congratulate you on being one of the few people to correctly spell "human pwnz0r" in this entire thread

[bn880 5]

Congratulations on our first useful discussion on these forums where no Zeus member is getting PR'd or banned.

I'm in total agreeance (heh) with lwlooz on the AI issue. They just feel like a team of grade 9's in uniform with weapons...

[xawery 0]

Hey! If you don't actually participate in Zeus gaming nights you don't get a say!

Bad wrist or not...

[bn880 5]

I get a say, I have a lot under my belt! I know what's going on, before it even happens... This AI issue gas been haunting us for ages. All I remember now is every time I had a squad under my command they went swimming.

[BlackScorpion 0]

Sorry I wasn't there on Sat... I was trying to get some sleep in an FDF half-squad tent in the middle of a forest, with 3 rocks under my back. So it would've been a tad hard to play!

[Nathan Bedford Forrest 0]

Congratulations on our first useful discussion on these forums where no Zeus member is getting PR'd or banned.

I'm in total agreeance (heh) with lwlooz on the AI issue.  They just feel like a team of grade 9's in uniform with weapons...

Dirty polack mofo.

And, since I think I coined the phrase, the correct spelling is 'human p00nz0r'.

...n00bs.