Terrorist attack on London

[wildo 0]

exactly placebo

i hope that no other bombs go off, even just 33 people dead is a great deal, like with 9/11 many people died (i dont know exact amount), even 1 death is to many

Wildo

[Apollo 0]

Just got home and heard about the attacks. What can one say? I truly hope that they catch the bastards who did this.

That however sounds a bit hollow, doesn't it? Catching the specific fucks who did this isn't going to really change anything is it? This isn't even a question of a centralized terror network that you could bring down.

The problem here is a radical political and religious ideology that seems to suit a certain group of Muslims across the world.

This is not something that is solved by military invasions. We have to fight the ideology and its spread. This has to be done on several fronts:

1) Do not tolerate religious extremism. Imprison, silence or kill the ideological leaders. Do it in a nice way so it doesn't point at you.

2) Capture and kill the operational and political leaders of existing terrorist cells. Do it like the Germans handled the Red Brigades or the French handled the Algerian terrorists. It's not pretty, but it works - and in the end the body count is far smaller than for instance oh, I don't know.. invading another country.

The most important thing however is to remove the recruitment depot. You may not be able to entirely kill off an ideology, but you can reduce the number of supporters. The problem is that attacking an open society is very easy. It doesn't require much resources to attack civilians. So you really need to eliminate the supporters.

This can in theory be done in two ways. One is appeasement, saying "of course we respect your irrational religious fundamentalism", by giving financial aid (the appeal of joining terrorist organizations is directly connected to poverty), and of course by trying to not piss them off by..oh..say.. invading countries which they hold dear. The problem with that approach is that you have really removed the primary source of the problem: the religious fundamentalism. There was a time when Islam was far more rational and tolerant, but today the fact is that mainstream Islam is intolerant and fundamentalist. That doesn't mean that all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, but the line to cross is much closer.

The second possibility was expressed by the right-wing nut Ann Coulter after the WTC attacks: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity". While converting Islamic nuts to Christian nuts may not help much, the basic idea is a theoretical possibility. We (the west) could invade every single Muslim country, force a secular rule and ban the practice of Islam. Of course, not many sane people would support something like that on moral grounds. In addition, unless we nuked the whole Mid East or something, it would probably not be doable. Just look at the mess in Iraq and that's just one country which wasn't too fanatically religious to start with.

So it's a difficult problem. The first approach isn't a permanent solution. The step from irrational fundamentalist religious belief to irrational homicidal religious belief is not a big one. The core problem here after all is religion. The second solution is something most people would find appalling and unacceptable.

Honestly, I don't see a solution.

Wow! Are you sober, Denoir?

I meant that as a compliment.

Christ Avon ,as much as i have some respect for youre efforts in this community ,and for youre individual oppinions even while they very different of mine.

But such remarks is not showing very much respect for the oppinions of others ,if you wish to have youre oppinions respected by others i advice you to debate on somewhat more reasonable terms.

It's remarks like this that let threads turn into flamefests so that Placebo has to come in here ,close the thread or to curtail how far a discusson can go.

[Garcia 0]

exactly placebo

i hope that no other bombs go off, even just 33 people dead is a great deal, like with 9/11 many people died (i dont know exact amount), even 1 death is to many

Wildo

It would be a miracle, or very bad bombs, if only 33 people died. Sadly, I think this will be like that school in russia, were they reported very few deaths in the start, but in the end there was over 300 dead (though, won't (hopefuly) not go too high). But I fear that there will be many more dead when all of this is over

[kakagoegie 0]

I just read something about a fifth bomb, which the British police safely made explode. Can anybody confirm this?

And do you guys think that today is the attack because a lot of police (something like 11.000) went to Scotland for the G8?

[Apollo 0]

I just read something about a fifth bomb, which the British police safely made explode. Can anybody confirm this?

And do you guys think that today is the attack because a lot of police (something like 11.000) went to Scotland for the G8?

Don't know ,but that would be kinda ironical ,although i am of the oppinion that there is few chance to stop a terrorist attack anyway ,regardless amounts of security.There are just to many targets of opportunity for terrorists.

[theavonlady 2]

Just got home and heard about the attacks. What can one say? I truly hope that they catch the bastards who did this.

That however sounds a bit hollow, doesn't it? Catching the specific fucks who did this isn't going to really change anything is it? This isn't even a question of a centralized terror network that you could bring down.

The problem here is a radical political and religious ideology that seems to suit a certain group of Muslims across the world.

This is not something that is solved by military invasions. We have to fight the ideology and its spread. This has to be done on several fronts:

1) Do not tolerate religious extremism. Imprison, silence or kill the ideological leaders. Do it in a nice way so it doesn't point at you.

2) Capture and kill the operational and political leaders of existing terrorist cells. Do it like the Germans handled the Red Brigades or the French handled the Algerian terrorists. It's not pretty, but it works - and in the end the body count is far smaller than for instance oh, I don't know.. invading another country.

The most important thing however is to remove the recruitment depot. You may not be able to entirely kill off an ideology, but you can reduce the number of supporters. The problem is that attacking an open society is very easy. It doesn't require much resources to attack civilians. So you really need to eliminate the supporters.

This can in theory be done in two ways. One is appeasement, saying "of course we respect your irrational religious fundamentalism", by giving financial aid (the appeal of joining terrorist organizations is directly connected to poverty), and of course by trying to not piss them off by..oh..say.. invading countries which they hold dear. The problem with that approach is that you have really removed the primary source of the problem: the religious fundamentalism. There was a time when Islam was far more rational and tolerant, but today the fact is that mainstream Islam is intolerant and fundamentalist. That doesn't mean that all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, but the line to cross is much closer.

The second possibility was expressed by the right-wing nut Ann Coulter after the WTC attacks: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity". While converting Islamic nuts to Christian nuts may not help much, the basic idea is a theoretical possibility. We (the west) could invade every single Muslim country, force a secular rule and ban the practice of Islam. Of course, not many sane people would support something like that on moral grounds. In addition, unless we nuked the whole Mid East or something, it would probably not be doable. Just look at the mess in Iraq and that's just one country which wasn't too fanatically religious to start with.

So it's a difficult problem. The first approach isn't a permanent solution. The step from irrational fundamentalist religious belief to irrational homicidal religious belief is not a big one. The core problem here after all is religion. The second solution is something most people would find appalling and unacceptable.

Honestly, I don't see a solution.

Wow! Are you sober, Denoir?

I meant that as a compliment.

Christ Avon ,as much as i have some respect for youre efforts in this community ,and for youre individual oppinions even while they very different of mine.

But such remarks is not showing very much respect for the oppinions of others  ,if you wish to have youre oppinions respected by others i advice you to debate on somewhat more reasonable terms.

It's remarks like this that let threads turn into flamefests so that Placebo has to come in here ,close the thread or to curtail how far a discusson can go.  

Then I better clarify myself quickly.

I agree with the vast majority of what Denoir said. I was suprised that he said it. I didn't expect that to be his opinion.

Obviously, I was wrong.

My point was that of course he's sober! There's a lot of clarity in that post. That's what I meant when I said it's a compliment.

Lost in translation due to the awkwardness of my own words. Sorry. Absolutely zero flaming intended.

[Caxton Gibbet 0]

Another pointless waste of innocent life. When will these people learn that free and democratic peoples can not be bombed into submission. If you knock us down we just get right back up. All these cowardly attacks do is strengthen our resolve and bring us closer together.Freedom will prevail.

Land of hope and glory, mother of the free.

[Ironsight 1]

I just read something about a fifth bomb, which the British police safely made explode. Can anybody confirm this?

I've heard that too, but I can't remember where at the moment

Quote[/b] ]It would be a miracle, or very bad bombs, if only 33 people died.

Indeed I think it will still be running up. Especially cause the explosions occured in tunnels, this means the explosion can't go up, but only run through the tunnel. I saw a video someone made with his mobile phone and you could clearly see all the windows in the train imploded. They were quite far away from the explosion since there was no trace of fire but if you look at those windows the explosion was quite powerfull

[Cpt. FrostBite 0]

RIP.

Not a real suprize, but still bad news. I'm sorry for the people that died in this attack.

The one question that's in my head right now is which city is next....

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Akira-

Quote[/b] ]BBC TV just reported 33 dead, 45 critically injured, and 450 "causalties" confirmed. They have yet to list the dead from the bus yet...as I assume it may be hard to be sure.

Damn , ill have to check on my friends. Its the biggest terrorist attack in the UK (the Omagh bombing killed 29 and wounded about 200). London can deal with it.

A picture of Christopher Wrens monument to the Great Fire of London in 1666 which destroyed a great swathe of the city, taken a few weeks ago on my way home.

[Apollo 0]

Then I better clarify myself quickly.

I agree with the vast majority of what Denoir said. I was suprised that he said it. I didn't expect that to be his opinion.

Obviously, I was wrong.

My point was that of course he's sober! There's a lot of clarity in that post. That's what I meant when I said it's a compliment.

Lost in translation due to the awkwardness of my own words. Sorry. Absolutely zero flaming intended.

Ok ,well it was the way youre words were formatted ,the sentence "wow ,are you sober denoir?" could have been interpreted as "I usually never expect Denoir to ever say something sensible as i see him as a persisten alcoholicus".Under this interpretation the rest of that post could have been seen as sarcasm.

Ah well ,English isn't my primary languaghe neither so i can understand such error's ,so then discard my reply.

[philcommando 0]

Is there anything we can do to help the victims? blood donations, etc?

Any ideas that we may prevent another bomb going off elsewhere in London and the world, eg:- more cautious of strangers and bags left unattended?

[kikill 0]

Then I better clarify myself quickly.

I agree with the vast majority of what Denoir said. I was suprised that he said it. I didn't expect that to be his opinion.

Obviously, I was wrong.

My point was that of course he's sober! There's a lot of clarity in that post. That's what I meant when I said it's a compliment.

Lost in translation due to the awkwardness of my own words. Sorry. Absolutely zero flaming intended.

i guess, what denoir said was ironical. only someone insane can believe in what he said.

that makes me think of a text of Voltaire (a french philosophe), where he demontrates the absurdity of slavery by using the arguments of the slave-owners.

denoir shows that using extremism to fight extremism isn't the solution, and only supporters of that method are themselves extremist and thus terrorists.

[theavonlady 2]

Then I better clarify myself quickly.

I agree with the vast majority of what Denoir said. I was suprised that he said it. I didn't expect that to be his opinion.

Obviously, I was wrong.

My point was that of course he's sober! There's a lot of clarity in that post. That's what I meant when I said it's a compliment.

Lost in translation due to the awkwardness of my own words. Sorry. Absolutely zero flaming intended.

i guess, what denoir said was ironical. only someone insane can believe in what he said.

that makes me think of a text of Voltaire (a french philosophe), where he demontrates the absurdity of slavery by using the arguments of the slave-owners.

denoir shows that using extremism to fight extremism isn't the solution, and only supporters of that method are themselves extremist and thus terrorists.

Then, as I like to say:

Good luck, Europe.

I might add:

Wake up, America!

[Placebo 28]

theavonlady 48hr PR for ignoring moderators instruction as to the content of discussion in this thread.

[wildo 0]

id give blood as soon as i could, but recently having a tattoo negatates that i have to wait a year before i could do it)

Wildo

[philcommando 0]

I am sure the world stand ready to help the victims if they require, just as England had stood ready to help the rest of the world when they were in trouble. They only need to ask, for no matter what, those were innocent men, women, children and babies that were dead or seriously injured. No one can stand idly by without feeling their loss ( except the beasts who probably are rejoicing now)

May the rest of the world take more safety precautions, cos these beasts arent likely gonna to stop. Make sure one keeps a lookout for suspicious characters loitering around, more so if he carries a bag ( not necessarily arabs, cos $$$ can buy any disaffected folks, sometimes kids even). If the distance is not too far, try to walk instead. Write down your wills if possible. Better a temporary climate of fear till the security forces gets a better picture of whats going on than lose your life in an act of foolish bravado;- sure aint no virgins waiting for us on the otherside, not even 1

[Scorpio 0]

I also agree with what denoir said. These guys have to be stopped - their actions are sickening.

I've had many confrontations with supporters of this ideology and to be honest with you, it was near impossible to reason with them. They have such a strong belief that they are righteous that they will even do these things like cold-heartedly kill innocent people.

I'm beginning to wonder why not much is being done to stop them, and why the wrong methods are being used (e.g. invading countries). Especially among muslims themselves - this probably due to what denoir said - that Islam today aint what it used to be - it's extremely distorted. Everyone has to wake up to the fact that this ideology is going to get much worse unless we do something about it. It's going to be severely damaging to every country affected by it and its going to be even more damaging to the relations between muslims and the rest of the world's people.

Doing something about it does not involve violence and attacks on muslims - it involves confronting supporters of the wahabi/salafi idealogy themselves. And using the best methods possible, without giving in.

It's easy to just sit in our cosy chairs giving condolences and saying how terrible today was, but at the end of the day it's not helping much. Of course, we should hope that justice will be done, but in my opinion the best way to help is to help through action - to speak out against the ideology and to help the victims of attacks.

[edit] What if there were muslims who died in those blasts? I bet the bastards who did this won't even care anyway - their doctrine states that they can kill muslims of other sects!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

kikill-

Quote[/b] ]only someone insane can believe in what he said.

Thats not true. Which part specifically points to insanity? I think these are Denoirs real views, hes become less liberal these days (though perhaps not to the extent of Ann Coulter   ).

I disagree with the sentence on 'silencing', imprisonment or killing of 'ideological leaders' at the least without some clarification of what is meant by that(perhaps Denoir is after all a supporter of Blairs illiberal bill on detention without trial amongst others).

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]mainstream Islam is intolerant and fundamentalist

How do you define 'mainstream islam'? I see examples of 'mainstream islam' coexisting tolerantly in this country with other faiths, and in other parts of europe and north america, though possibly in the heartlands of Islam what you say may be true in some areas. I think the problem is not 'religion' but extremists willing to use religion for their own ends. You might as well say that science was to blame for the Swedish eugenics and forced sterilisation policy.

Quote[/b] ]Do it in a nice way so it doesn't point at you.'

Easy to say huh? Just because Germans or French managed to do something in the past, doesnt mean its possible today with the 24 hour media (including arab channels) immediately speculating on any newsworthy event.

Quote[/b] ]One is appeasement, saying "of course we respect your irrational religious fundamentalism", by giving financial aid (the appeal of joining terrorist organizations is directly connected to poverty)

But you have previously made the argument that religious belief (and much more crucually the extremity of such) tends to decline with education and, i think, wealth. Financial aid could provide a great boost to education systems in the poorer regions of the world, and i dont see how financial aid has to be, has been, or is, linked to a repect for peoples religious views (you can have fundamental respect for a person without agreeing with their ideas). Anyway im not sure that mere financial aid will play a pivotal part in the fight against terrorist attacks. Poor people too are capable of holding a fundamental respect for human life, though education systems are more relevant.

Scorpio-

Quote[/b] ]Doing something about it does not involve violence and attacks on muslims - it involves confronting supporters of the wahabi/salafi idealogy themselves. And using the best methods possible, without giving in.

Yes, agreed.

Quote[/b] ][edit] What if there were muslims who died in those blasts? I bet the bastards who did this won't even care anyway - their doctrine states that they can kill muslims of other sects!

Well dont forget that Al quaida (assuming it is they) have carried out deadly attacks in Saudi Arabia and others predominantly Muslim nations as well.

[scars09 9]

Luke 6:27-36

[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

wicked thing is im not even religious, but this is the only possible way to act. And every new security measure is just a cut in our freedom not in their possibility to attack.

[python3 0]

first off, my condolences to the victims of the tragedy.....

kinda makes you think about iraq. This is such a big thing on the news here in the west, but 30-50 people dying in these blasts occurs several times a week in that poor country. pretty tragic.

[python3 0]

best way to stop terror, stop western intervention is the ME. That means war and democracy spreading and support for secular rulers. Time to leave our countries be.

[Colossus 2]

Just heard

WTH is wrong with those people?

[cervomix 0]

That's rather surprising to see a extremist islamist organization doing this in the UK, considered as europe's nest for Islamist extremists (where they are recruited by example) since they can do things that are not tolerated in other european countries in the name of their 'religion' (in my opinion islam and what these extremists do in the name of Allah are totally opposed).

Enforcing UK laws against this would be something really negative to them.

So that's weird to see that these extremist would "saw" the tree branch where they're sitting on (I hope you see what i mean). Never wondered why UK was not targetted before Spain for example? Considering their implication in Iraq they should have been the #2 best choice for insane extremists after the USA.

I hope to be wrong, but we'll really know who did/ordered it by seeing the implications that will result of it.

If "guilty" country is revealed to be Iran by example, no need to be a seer to make obvious conclusions.

What's despairing is that some people still have a naive point of view about human kind and still believe there's "good" or "bad" guys. Open history books, and try to find a country that not behaved like a bitch in the last 100 years.

Sad to see that once again it was just usual people that had to paid a heavy tribute for this uber shit.

Ps: Sorry for my english

[Panda-PL- 0]

Well. As allways when speaking about terrorism there are theese few people who say:

"terrorism is bad, but...". There's no "but". The only ones to be blamed for murder are the murderers themself. Any other interpretation is simply a manipulation of facts, a lie.

A few remarks:

1) Terrorism - a random murdering of innocent people - is by some thought to be the last defense of poor oppressed people.

That is a LIE. I'm from Poland and we've had facist occupation durring WW2 - public executions, tortures, etc. You know what Poles did? They didn't put bombs in trashcans, or on busses. They rathered to kill the ones who really opressed them - the Germans. So they organised assasinations on highest SS and Gestapo officers.

Why don't terrorers attack the leaders of a country that they claim to oppress them?

3) British goverment is at blame. Nonsense! A dumbest excuse you could think of. So if a kid says: if you don't buy me a cookie i'll beat up my little sister, and he dose, are you the one to blame?

4) Terrorist strikes come from pooverty. Not true. The terrorist strikes take thousants and millions $$ to make. You have to buy and smuggle a lot of illegal things to make one. The 9-11 was calculated to cost over 0.5 millin dollars. Terrorist organisations are sponsored by RICH people.

5) Terrorer == fundamentalist. Not true. First of all "fundamentalism" is misused by media and the true meaning of the word is different. Second of all terrorers are not fundamentals (in my oppinion. Get to know what that word means and you'll see that theese two things have nothing in common), although some declare to be .

6) Goals of Al'quida - the goal of this organisation is to gain power in arabic world and take control over arabic countries. They don't give a FU*** about poor people or religion - that's just their propaganda. If you go for that you must have no eyes.

7) You have to be rich to "fight fair" and "terrorists are not cowards". Bull***! The security around parlamentaries is so loose you could walk to them andm put a bullet in their back if you were brave enought. Why not find out who was voting for the war and kill them? That would be the logical solution. But theese cowards rather bomb civilians because it's safer.

"Brave people" If someone brings that crap up again...

8) Whole arabic world condamns terror. Not true. Most use the above silly excuses and blamest terrorism on western countries.

9) Pverty is the cause of terrorism. misinterpretation. Terrorers  - the highest ranks - use poor people for their goals.

9)

Quote[/b] ]Oh one last thing, condolences to the people who are injured and their families, I know many people in Britain didn't even support this silly war on terror.  

Taht doesn't do any good. What you said is like it was just a bad accident and accidents happen. Like theese people had to die for some higher good. If you don't condamn those murderers or if You find in your soul a slightest sign of justification for theese acts You have no right to express condolences to anyone and don't do so!

I remember some terrores posting something like "we're sorry for the victims, but they are victims of their goverment's...". That's bull*** and crap^3 !

To sum up:

- I condamn terrorers/murderers and the ones who justify and there's no "but".

- If enyone has any "buts" I condamn him too (WTF? Do I have to be tolerant if I see someone justifying terrorist strikes?! Well do I ?!.

- If someone doesn't like the world he's living I'm with him - I don't like it too. But if that someone wants to kill me for that I'm against.

- There is no justification for murder.

- The western countries' goverments are not at fault.

- The terrorers deliberately choose to kill civilians for political effect only. It is not because they're poor or that they don't have other options.

- About human rights - there is no justification for breaking them! Not even for terrorers! you don't make exceptions for anyone - oterwse you're just a barbarian. You cannot "become the monster so the monster will not break you" - where would that lead us to?

- For the dumb: TERRORISM IS EVIL, THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION OR DIVIDED BLAME - THE ONLY ONES RESPONSIBLE ARE TERRORERS THEMSELF.

From now on I'd like that topic to be for condolences and informations only. If someone wants to express their symphaty for thye "poor oppressed freedom fighters" then please post a new topic - and I'll ask a Mod to remove it. Theese forums are NOT for political or ideological discussins. Find some islamic forums and chat there about jihad if you like (you'd be surprised to see that some share my point of view).

[EDIT] I agree with Scorpio - that many countries use terrorism as an excuse for their own wrongdooings (like Russia). The sad thin is that the muslims - who are brave and good people - still can't find enought courage to end the fanatism among themselves. Some day they'll have to, because that's destroying Islam just as the crusades did to Christianity.