Pope Given Last Rites

[Bordoy 0]

Gordy go watch, ermmmm, Sky Sports News or Bloomberg, lol.

I don't like watching sports but actually taking part. As for bloomberg, they don't say anything I wouldn't know already.

Don't know what to advise to you then.

Watch MOTD tonight though, Dyer and Bowyer had a bust up

Mods: Sorry or going off-topic, should confine this to pm's

[Bordoy 0]

RIP John Paul II

[FW200 0]

Even though I'm not religious,

RIP Karol Wojtyla

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Confirmed that he has passed away

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399715.stm

RIP

[SpecOp9 0]

Such a great man, probably one of the greatest who ever lived. RIP

[MontyVCB 0]

my god bless his soul

[BlackScorpion 0]

As I said yesterday... But now, truly...

May he RIP. He has deserved a peaceful afterlife.

[Grabarz^^ 0]

As polish member I will write something in polish...

Ojcze Swiety, bedzie nam Ciebie brakowac...zrobiles tyle dla swiata, wiec teraz masz prawo odpoczac...do zobaczenia za jakis czas....

Jan Pawel II

1920 - 2005

[*] Symbolic candle for Holy Father....

[sim 0]

R.I.P

He was a good man...

[GoOB 0]

Even though I far from agree with the views of the catholic churh, I have to say rest in peace, Jan Pawel II. A man who has done so much for so many deserves respect.

[Nemesis6 0]

Rest in peace.

[pajama 0]

R.I.P John Paul II

[cozza 24]

Even thought I'm not religious. RIP John Pual II

[ralphwiggum 6]

although i don't agree with him on some issues, i respected him.

RIP

[Bernadotte 0]

From the other Pope thread:

Quote[/b] ]What did the Pope ever do to bring down the Iron Curtain that can compare with what they started?

If you weren't such a ignorant about last few decades of Eastern Europe history you wouldn't have asked such a dumb question.  Read this and don't make a fool of yourself.

I try to discuss the Pope's role in bringing down the Iron Curtain.  You use the opportunity to be rude and arrogant.

I guess we all have our own personal ways of commemorating the Pope's passing.  

[Akira 0]

From the other Pope thread:

Quote[/b] ]What did the Pope ever do to bring down the Iron Curtain that can compare with what they started?

If you weren't such a ignorant about last few decades of Eastern Europe history you wouldn't have asked such a dumb question. Read this and don't make a fool of yourself.

I try to discuss the Pope's role in bringing down the Iron Curtain. You use the opportunity to be rude and arrogant.

I guess we all have our own personal ways of commemorating the Pope's passing.

Well I would have to say you were equally rude, or at least insensitive. No one denied other helped bring down the Iron Curtain, in fact I think we all know that it was hundred of thousands of people that brought it down. The Pope was just one of the major players, and a highly public one that millions followed., and his effect should not be discarded because he is a religous figure. Its not the East German couple that died, its the Pope.

And I don't see how your story was "commomorating the Pope's passing."

[Bernadotte 0]

Well I would have to say you were equally rude, or at least insensitive.

Equally rude?  How do you figure?  

I posted a contrary opinion and asked what the Pope had done.  Voodzia posted a link with some details that were new for me.  I might even have thanked Voodzia if he hadn't decided to call me an ignorant fool asking dumb questions.  And now you call me equally rude or insensitive?

No one denied other helped bring down the Iron Curtain, in fact I think we all know that it was hundred of thousands of people that brought it down. The Pope was just one of the major players, and a highly public one that millions followed.

Bringing down the communist party in Poland between 1981 and 1989 is one thing.  Bringing down the Iron Curtain is another.  And "setting the whole world free of communism" as @rika claimed is still very much another.  It was really this 3rd claim that I was responding to.

...and his effect should not be discarded because he is a religous figure.

I specifically stated, "I don't deny the role of the Pope along the way since his appointment way back in 1978."  I hardly "discarded" his effect.

And I don't see how your story was "commomorating the Pope's passing."  

I'm afraid you're missing the point.  IMO, anyone who cannot defend the Pope's accomplishments without resorting to insults does less to honour what the Pope stood for than someone who simply, politely disagrees.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Equally rude? How do you figure?

I posted a contrary opinion and asked what the Pope had done. Voodzia posted a link with some details that were new for me. I might even have thanked Voodzia if he hadn't decided to call me an ignorant fool asking dumb questions. And now you call me equally rude or insensitive?

By sharing your contrary story, in a thread about the Pope, and in effect discarding his accomplishments because, as you have already admited, you were unaware of what he did do, seems quite rude to me.

Quote[/b] ]Bringing down the communist party in Poland between 1981 and 1989 is one thing. Bringing down the Iron Curtain is another.

Bringing down the Curtian in Poland, one of the rather large bricks in the wall is no small accomplishment. No one man or one couple brought down the Curtain. It was an effort by thousands.

Quote[/b] ]IMO, anyone who cannot defend the Pope's accomplishments without resorting to insults does less to honour what the Pope stood for than someone who simply, politely disagrees.

Well if you are unable to see that only hours after the Pope dies, that coming into a thread made to commemorating him, and basically saying he didn't do anything, might bring some rather emotional responses...and being surprised about it, I'm afraid you need some work on your social skills.

[Bernadotte 0]

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Feel the love!!</span>  

Farewell, John Paul II, one of the only Popes never to wear the papal crown because he insisted on remaining the servant of the servants of God and not their leader.  

[Billabong81 0]

RIP John Paul II. He was a great man and a great pope, the next pope has some big shoes to fill .

[shinRaiden 0]

Various tributes

Quote[/b] ]

Leaders from around the world mourned the death of Pope John Paul II, hailing him as a central figure of the 20th century and a champion of freedom and peace.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said the world had lost a religious leader who was revered by Catholics and non-Catholics alike for his "unflinching" struggle for what he believed was good and right.

"The world has lost a religious leader who was revered across people of all faiths and none.

"He was an inspiration, a man of extraordinary faith, dignity and courage. He never wavered, never flinched, in the struggle for what he thought was good and right."

US President George W. Bush, flanked by his wife Laura, paid tribute to the pope as "one of history's great moral leaders"

"The Catholic Church has lost its shepherd, the world has lost a champion of human freedom, and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home," Bush said from the White House.

Bush highlighted John Paul II's role in launching a democratic revolution that swept eastern Europe and remembered him as an ardent advocate of "a culture of life," one of Bush's favoured themes in the deeply religious United States.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "deeply saddened" by the 84-year-old pontiff's passing.

"Quite apart from his role as a spiritual guide to more than a billion men, women and children, he was a tireless advocate of peace, a true pioneer in interfaith dialogue and a strong force for critical self-evaluation by the Church itself."

The head of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barrosso, hailed the "essential role" played by Pope John Paul II in helping reunify Europe, for which he deserves "the title of the founding father of Europe."

Israel, where the pope made a historic visit in 2000, praised John Paul II's work to promote understanding among peoples.

"Israel, the Jewish people and the entire world, lost today a great champion of reconciliation and brotherhood between the faiths," Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said, extending Israel's condolences to the Roman Catholic Church.

Palestinians were also saddened by the death of John Paul II, remembering him as a pope who supported those suffering from injustice.

"A great man who left his mark all over the world has departed," said Tayeb Abdel Rahim, secretary general of the Palestinian Authority.

"The death of the pope is a loss for all of humanity, for peace lovers and for the Palestinian people," he told AFP, remembering how the pope had welcomed the Palestinian leadership to the Vatican on several occasions.

Meanwhile Italy's President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi said that Italians were mourning "the loss of a father."

"The pope will be remembered as one of those men of freedom and justice," Ciampi said in a televised address to the nation.

Spain, a mainly Catholic nation, expressed its "profound grief," as Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said the demise of the pontiff "represents the loss of one of the most towering world figures in recent history."

And Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern said Pope John Paul II was a towering figure of his time who played a decisive role in ending decades of division and oppression in Europe.

"The focus and mission of his pontificate were rooted in his vision of the dignity of the human person and its implications for the proper character of social relations, within and between nations," he said.

French President Jacques Chirac said he was "deeply moved" and that all of France was now in mourning while German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said that Pope John Paul II had "changed our world" and played a crucial role in the development of a peaceful Europe.

Former US president Bill Clinton hailed the pontiff's role in the downfall of communism.

"In speaking powerfully and eloquently for mercy and reconciliation to people divided by old hatreds and persecuted by abuse of power, the Holy Father was a beacon of light not just for Catholics, but for all people," Clinton and his wife Senator Hillary Clinton said in a statement.

Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev called John Paul II "the number one humanist on this planet" and Hungarian Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany thanked the pope for helping to lift the yoke of communism from Europe.

"We know that Pope John Paul II used his personal stature to fight against communist dictatorships, for a bloodless and peaceful transition. For this all of central and eastern Europe, including all freedom loving citizens of Hungary, must pay their respects to the memory of the holy father," Gyurcsany said in a statement.

Croatian President Stipe Mesic lamented an "immeasurable loss for the Catholic Church, all believers and the entire world" and Slovenia's Foreign Minister and current chairman of the OSCE Dimitrij Rupel paid homage to Pope John Paul II "as the most important political personality in Europe during the last 25 years of the twentieth century."

Britain's Queen Elizabeth II expressed her "deep sorrow" over the passing of a man of peace.

"Her majesty remembers the untiring efforts of Pope John Paul II in promoting peace and goodwill throughout the world," she said a statement from Buckingham Palace.

Nigeria's President Olusegun Obasanjo hailed the late pontiff as "an embodiment of the virtue of love" and thanked him for his opposition to the country's former military dictators.

Mormons

Quote[/b] ]

SALT LAKE CITY — Following the death of Pope John Paul II, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued the following statement:

“We join those throughout the world who mourn the passing of Pope John Paul II, an extraordinary man of faith, vision, and intellect, whose courageous actions have touched the world in ways that will be felt for generations to come."

“The Pope’s voice remained firm in defense of freedom, family, and Christianity. On matters of principle and morality he was uncompromising. On his compassion for the world's poor, he has been unwavering.â€

Southern Baptists

Quote[/b] ]

Pope John Paul II, who played a key role in the demise of communism and who championed pro-life and pro-family causes worldwide, died April 2 at the Vatican. He was 84.

Born Karol Wojtyla in 1920, the pope served from 1978 to 2005 and was easily the most-traveled pontiff in history. A firm believer in the protection of human life from conception until natural death, he frequently spoke out against abortion, euthanasia and -- in his latter years -- cloning and embryonic stem cell research.

Earlier this year in a new book, "Memory and Identity," he said same-sex "marriage" was part of a "new ideology of evil."

The pope and conservative evangelicals were worlds apart on theology and doctrine but found common ground on many social issues.

I think history will record Pope John Paul II as one of the most significant, historic figures of the 20th century, on a par with great statesmen and world leaders," said Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. "In many ways, he was as eloquent a spokesman for the inherent and intrinsic value of every human being as Winston Churchill was for freedom and liberty."

The pope suffered from Parkinson's disease which prevented him from traveling extensively in his final years and limited his public appearances in his final weeks. In his final days, he struggled to breathe and eat and could not even speak publicly.

"Pope John Paul II will go down in history as one of the most significant leaders of our time," said R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky. "Conservative evangelicals will long remember this pope as a man who had the courage to confront communism and to call it what it was, at great personal risk.

"I think most evangelicals appreciate his concern for the sanctity of human life. This was a pope who could always be counted upon to defend human life at every stage. His public statements and courageous advocacy of life against what he called the culture of death will go down in history as, I think, the most significant mark of his leadership."

Many social conservatives felt the pope himself was a living example of the culture of life he so advocated. In March, World magazine's Gene Edward Veith wrote, "One does not have to be Catholic to appreciate the pope's modeling of the 'spirituality of suffering' in his last days."

But even in his final year of life, Pope John Paul II made his voice known in the world's cultural battles:

-- In November 2004 he condemned euthanasia, cloning and embryonic stem cell research.

"There are no lives that are not worth living," he said. "There is no suffering, no matter how grave, that can justify killing a life. There are no reasons, no matter how noble, that make plausible the creation of human beings, destined to be used and destroyed."

-- In March 2004 he defended those diagnosed to be in vegetative states, saying their lives were worthy of protection. Feeding tubes, he said, should not be identified as medical treatments. Many social conservatives took his position as referencing the Terri Schiavo case.

"The sick person in a vegetative state, awaiting recovery or a natural end, still has the right to basic health care (nutrition, hydration, cleanliness, warmth, etc.), and to the prevention of complications related to his confinement to bed," the text of his statement read. "He also has the right to appropriate rehabilitative care and to be monitored for clinical signs of eventual recovery. I should like particularly to underline how the administration of water and food, even when provided by artificial means, always represents a natural means of preserving life, not a medical act."

-- In February of this year in his aforementioned book, "Memory and Identity," he compared abortion to the Holocaust.

"There is still, however, a legal extermination of human beings who have been conceived but not yet born," he wrote. "And this time we are talking about an extermination which has been allowed by nothing less than democratically elected parliaments where one normally hears appeals for the civil progress of society and all humanity."

-- In the same book he also spoke out against the movement to legalize "gay marriage."

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he wrote.

Pope John Paul II was the first Polish pope ever and the first non-Italian pope since the 16th century. Just three years after his inauguration, he survived a 1981 assassination attempt on his life.

"I admire Pope John Paul II for the strong stands he took on behalf of the sanctity of life, the importance of maintaining the one-man, one-woman definition of marriage and on so many other moral issues of our day," Robert E. Reccord, president of the Southern Baptist North American Mission Board, said. "Even during his final days as the controversy over Terri Schiavo s death swirled through the media in the United States, John Paul demonstrated the dignity and value of human life by the way he so gracefully handled his own death. He lived life with a humility and accessibility that made him among the most beloved people in the world and his contributions will be long remembered."

In 1979, communist officials allowed the pope to visit his homeland -- then communist -- and millions came to greet him. His support for the 1980s Solidarity movement in Poland was considered critical to the government's downfall. He sent messages of encouragement through priests to imprisoned Polish union leaders. By the end of the decade communism was crumbling worldwide.

"Next to Ronald Reagan there is no one who can be credited with helping bring down the fall of communism in the old Soviet Bloc than Pope John Paul II," R. Philip Roberts, president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Mo., said. "His stand for liberty and freedom of conscience in his fight against communism is to be commended. In this respect he was a man of tremendous courage, strength and perseverance."

Said Land: He rallied the captive nations of Eastern Europe to throw off the yoke of Soviet communism. Furthermore, he emerged as one of the most eloquent spokesmen anywhere in the world for religious freedom for all human beings as a universal right, and for the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death and everywhere in between."

Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, met Pope John Paul II twice -- in the late 1970s and then in the early 1980s. Patterson was president of The Criswell College in Dallas at the time. He said the Roman Catholic leader was affable on both occasions and sufficiently understanding of our evangelical position.

He did not ask or expect the kind of obeisance which would normally be accorded to him, Patterson said. I remember thinking when I left his presence, Here is a pope who knows how to pope.

Patterson said that he and the pope discussed the biblical book of 1 Peter and then exchanged gifts. I gave him a Criswell Study Bible and he gave me a rosary. I am not sure who won the exchange, he said.

While it would be difficult to imagine two people talking together with a theological divide as wide as the ocean and still finding much in common, this is exactly what transpired.

The pope's successor will be chosen by the world's 119 cardinals, who will meet in 15-20 days in a special session known as a conclave. One of them will become the next pope. Initially, a two-thirds vote is required. However, according to an MSNBC.com story, a new rule allows the cardinals to elect the next pope by a simple majority if they fail to reach the two-thirds threshold within a week or so. The new rule was made by Pope John Paul II himself. The conclave will open following a period of mourning.

"John Paul II presented evangelicals with a pope in whom we found amazing ground of agreement and personal respect even as we believe the office he holds is not a biblical office," Mohler said. "We saw the dangers of that from time to time, for instance in his pastoral statements on Hell and some other things that we felt did not show the same concern for biblical authority that he displayed on the question of life or the objectivity of truth.

"I think evangelicals also recognize that in the passing of John Paul II we may never see his likes again, and theres a real sense of loss in that even as we continue to be greatly concerned about the institution of the papacy, we have great admiration for the man."

Closing

Quote[/b] ]

A formal announcement that followed from Archbishop Leonardo Sandri, the Vatican's undersecretary of state, was heard in silence by 70,000 in the square. "Our Holy Father, John Paul, has returned to the house of the Father," he said. "We all feel like orphans this evening."

...

As the end approached, history's best travelled and third longest serving pontiff had urged his followers not to cry for him by dictating a message to his secretary.

"I am happy and you should be happy too," he said. "Do not weep. Let us pray together with joy."

...

"A short while before dying, the Pope raised his right hand in a clear, although simply hinted at, gesture of blessing, as if he became aware of the crowd of faithful present in St Peter's Square, who in those moments were following the reciting of the Rosary," he added.

"Just after the prayer ended, the Pope made a huge effort and pronounced the word 'Amen'. A moment later, he died."

...

Michael Magee, a papal official, said just before the death was announced: “What is going on is awesome. It is something very sad and yet joyful and full of reverence. It is tragic but in a sense there is this great sense of completion.â€

[theavonlady 2]

This came out last week:

Quote[/b] ]1981 attack on pope planned by Soviets: report

Wed Mar 30, 9:40 AM ET Top Stories - AFP

ROME (AFP) - New documents found in the files of the former East German intelligence services confirm the 1981 assassination attempt against Pope John Paul II was ordered by the Soviet KGB and assigned to Bulgarian agents, an Italian daily said.

The Corriere della Sera said that the documents found by the German government indicated that the KGB ordered Bulgarian colleagues to carry out the killing, leaving the East German service known as the Stasi to coordinate the operation and cover up the traces afterwards.

Bulgaria then handed the execution of the plot to Turkish extremists, including Mehmet Ali Agca, who pulled the trigger.

The daily said the documents had been handed over to Bulgaria and would be made available to the Italian parliamentary commission inquiring into the activities of formerly Communist eastern European regimes in Italy.

The newspaper said the documents consist mostly of letters from Stasi operatives to their Bulgarian counterparts seeking help in covering up traces after the attack and denying Bulgarian involvement.

Ali Agca, who is now in jail in Turkey, claimed after his arrest that the operation was under the control of the Bulgarian embassy in Rome. The Bulgarians have always insisted they were innocent and argued that Agca's story was part of an anti-communist plot by the Italian secret service and the CIA.

The paper said the documents back up the pope's own memories of the assassination attempt in May 1981 in his book "Memory and Identity: Conversations Between Millenniums," in which he said he was convinced that the attack was not planned or directed by Ali Agca.

[868 0]

Many things have occured in this generation.

From medical breakthroughs to unfortunate events such as this.

We live in a very sensitive time and we should all be thankful that what we do in our lifetime affects the children of the future more than ever. No matter how small the actions may be.

The pontiff was a great man and a great leader.

We should all respect his courage and this vision.

May he rest in peace.

[Chip 0]

His good deeds (which are also debatable) are diminished by his fanatical opposition of abortion and contraception with which he made a sizeable contribution to suffering of millions of people. How in the world are people able to feel sorry for that man is beyond me!

[Ares1978 0]

His good deeds (which are also debatable) are diminished by his fanatical opposition of abortion and contraception with which he made a sizeable contribution to suffering of millions of people. How in the world are people able to feel sorry for that man is beyond me!

Well said.

Lets see how long it takes for somebody to accuse you of whatever is popular to accuse dissidents of nowadays.