The Middle East part 2

[joltan 0]

Heres a tip ask the person who knows the language and sk him what it means and dont ALWAYS depend upon translations to be accurate

Well, just seeing how different muslims themselves interpret their book I don't think this could be the simple solution. But you are right - you have to know the language & culture, the history and be very familar with what you want to translate. And then compare with the translations and interpretations of others... But then you would need to be really interested in translating it correctly (whatever that means) and not in just using it to further your own beliefs.

[denoir 0]

@ Dec. 22 2003,01:36)]I'm sure that if we translated the Qu'ran through Babelfish the world's current religious conflicts would be really interesting.

Actually that's not a bad idea

Here's the 10 commandments (not sure which version - possibly catholic). Original:

Quote[/b] ]

1

You shall have no other gods but me.

2

You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain.

3

Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.

4

Honor your father and your mother.

5

You shall not kill.

6

You shall not commit adultery.

7

You shall not steal.

8

You shall not bear false witness.

9

You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

10

You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

Bablefish (Systran) English->Portugese->English->German->English->Italian->English

Quote[/b] ]

1      

An other God does not have it no however.      

2      

It does not form the examination from the name of the Mr., the relative God    

3      

To remember itself of, Saint day of the getlteman to remain.    

4      

The relative father and the relative one honour of nut/mother.  

5      

It does not kill on events.      

6      

It does not specify the adultery.      

7      

It does not steal on events.      

8      

It does not load twisted yarn up a witness.      

9      

That the woman of the relative one close does not want.      

10      

No desire of what, than the relative one close it belongs.

Now remember you heathens:

"It does not form the examination from the name of the Mr, the relative God "

[TexMex Leprechaun 0]

Where were we?

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Where were we?

I was just trying to get a better translation of the Koran verses that I had posted, since I had been told that they were grossly wrong. Anyways, the way I see it, the Palestinians fight in a way that says " We don't care about morals, we don't care about women and children" Their tactics target civilians. If they were waging a true gureilla war, they would target military. The IDF does over-do thier raids a bit, but are y'all saying that the palestinians aren't using excesevive force by blowing up a school-bus full of kids? If you truly believe they are doing whats right, all I can say is I'll pray for you.

Mr. Picky

[TexMex Leprechaun 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you truly believe they are doing whats right, all I can say is I'll pray for you.

Amen brother! The IDF is fighting a tough kind of war, civilian casulties can not be avioded, especially when they are terrorist.

[Bernadotte 0]

Some of the latest statistics:

Quote[/b] ]Here is a breakdown of 3,481 deaths in more than three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence. The Associated Press reviewed data from the third year of fighting, figures that reveal a 50 percent drop in casualties from the previous year. The numbers are based on information compiled in interviews with relatives, witnesses, doctors and visits to hospital morgues.

TOTAL:  2,583 on the Palestinian side and 898 on the Israeli side. The Israeli figure includes several foreigners, migrant workers, tourists, students on study-abroad programs and staff of international bodies killed in Palestinian attacks. It also includes at least 43 U.S. citizens, most also holding Israeli citizenship.

The Palestinian figure includes an American peace activist crushed by an Israeli bulldozer while trying to stop the demolition of a Palestinian home, a British U.N. official killed by Israeli fire during a gunbattle in the West Bank, a German doctor killed by Israeli fire as he tried to help Palestinians wounded when a rocket slammed into their home, several Egyptians killed in Gaza and two journalists -- one Italian and the other British -- both fatally wounded while working in Palestinian areas.

PALESTINIANS KILLED PREPARING OR CARRYING OUT ATTACKS:  289.

This figure includes suicide bombers, gunmen and Palestinians who died while preparing explosives.

PALESTINIAN MILITANTS TARGETED AND KILLED BY ISRAELIS:  117.

BYSTANDERS KILLED IN TARGETED ATTACKS ON MILITANTS:  88.

PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS:  108.

VICTIMS OF SUICIDE BOMBERS:  436.

DEADLIEST SUICIDE ATTACK:  A Palestinian from the West Bank town of Tulkarem killed 29 Israelis on March 27, 2002, during a Passover hotel dinner.

DEADLIEST TOLL FOR PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS:  An Israeli F-16 warplane bombing on July 23, 2002, hit a Gaza City apartment building and killed a Hamas military leader, Salah Shehadeh, his bodyguard and 13 bystanders, including his wife, daughter, and eight other children.

ISRAELI SOLDIERS KILLED: 244.

JEWISH SETTLERS KILLED IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA:  146.

FATALITIES UNDER AGE 18:

Israelis: 92.

Palestinians: 319

(excludes suicide bombers or others killed in attacks on Israeli targets).

[Bernadotte 0]

... Anyways, the way I see it, the Palestinians fight in a way that says " We don't care about morals,  we don't care about women and children"  Their tactics target civilians.  If they were waging a true gureilla war, they would target military.  The IDF does over-do thier raids a bit, but are y'all saying that the palestinians aren't using excesevive force by blowing up a school-bus full of kids?  If you truly believe they are doing whats right, all I can say is I'll pray for you.

This post truly demonstrates your double standard, Pick Axe.

On the one hand, you don't say terrorists and you don't say militants.  For you, they are simply all the same, those Palestinians, even though a population of ~ 4 million has only generated 108 suicide bombers (that's 0.0027% of the population).

On the other hand, you make the extra effort to distinguish the IDF from the Israeli people and government.  Do you even know what an Israel settler is or anything about the problems they've caused?  (now ~ 7% of the population)  If so then why have you excluded them from the way you see it?

And furthermore, who in this forum has stated that what the terrorists are doing is right?  Saying that we "truly believe they are doing whats right" is an outright lie.  If you really believe that sympathising with the cause of millions of people who lost their property is the same as condoning acts of terrorism then all I can say is I'll pray for you.

[Gollum1 0]

Sorry if everyone already knew this, but read through the last pages with the assumption that

Texmext Leprechaun = Pick Axe.

You're not really cut out for this, are you, Pick Leprechaun?

[Acecombat 0]

Sorry if everyone already knew this, but read through the last pages with the assumption that

Texmext Leprechaun = Pick Axe.

You're not really cut out for this, are you, Pick Leprechaun?

How'd you come to that fine conclusion mate

[Gollum1 0]

Sorry if everyone already knew this, but read through the last pages with the assumption that

Texmext Leprechaun = Pick Axe.

You're not really cut out for this, are you, Pick Leprechaun?

How'd you come to that fine conclusion mate  

Elementary, my dear Watson.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]How'd you come to that fine conclusion mate

Some admin did a ping check?  

It would be funny as in that case he would have quoted himself in this thread.

Posted by Texmex Leprehaun:

Quote[/b] ]Where were we?

posted by Pick axe:

Quote[/b] ]I was just trying to get a better translation of the Koran verses that I had posted, since I had been told that they were grossly wrong.  Anyways, the way I see it, the Palestinians fight in a way that says " We don't care about morals,  we don't care about women and children"  Their tactics target civilians.  If they were waging a true gureilla war, they would target military.  The IDF does over-do thier raids a bit, but are y'all saying that the palestinians aren't using excesevive force by blowing up a school-bus full of kids?  If you truly believe they are doing whats right, all I can say is I'll pray for you.

Mr. Picky

Posted by by Texmex Leprehaun:

Quote[/b] ]Amen brother! The IDF is fighting a tough kind of war, civilian casulties can not be avioded, especially when they are terrorist.

[denoir 0]

Some admin did a ping check?  

It would be funny as in that case he would have quoted himself in this thread.

He is Duke of Ray, an old banned member of the forums who often got into trouble because of his aggressive Christian fundamentalism.

He comes back now and then with new accounts - but since he can't stay off religion, he always gets caught. I've banned him myself at least three times

[Gollum1 0]

Leprechaun has a pretty damn pointless quote by axe in his sig that no one but himself could consider smart or funny.

Grow up.

Anyway, SORRY for the OT, that's all I have to say on the matter!

[Apollo 0]

Ah well ,no one was really taking Pick axe's comment's really serious anyway in this debate.

A few lovely debate's on this forum btw. I have seen few OT forum's where such issue's were really debated in such a technical and constructive way.

A comment about the discussion on the Saudi wealth (of it's Monarch's) and it's connection to the Palestinian conflict:

While i havn't got the slightest respect for the Saudi monarchy

(not many have ,maybe it's the only thing most of us have in common with OBL) i can understand why the Saudi people in general have symphaties for the Palestinian's.While i do not really understand everything on Pan-Arabism (have to read more on it) it could be conceivable that much of the Middle east as being arab's support these people as they see eachother part of a wide Arab culture ,even ethnic group.like you could have a France or Germany devided in multiple country's ,yet the poppulation is and still think's a lot as French or German's rather than the nationality of their country.I don't know how much Acecombat is feeling Saudi in particular ,and Arab in general ,no'r do i know how much Arab other arabs in the Middle east feel Arab and not their own nationality.

However ,conceivably Pan Arabism could be growing due to outside interference ,as it has a common enemy from the outside.Youre perfect ground for a man like Osama bin Laden.

What i'm more scared off is the thought of a Pan-Arabic state.i don't know how realistic it is given certain circumstances ,but conceivably it would lead to way more conflict.

[python3 0]

Some admin did a ping check?  

It would be funny as in that case he would have quoted himself in this thread.

He is Duke of Ray, an old banned member of the forums who often got into trouble because of his aggressive Christian fundamentalism.

He comes back now and then with new accounts - but since he can't stay off religion, he always gets caught. I've banned him myself at least three times

haha, man, i found this post quite amusing. I remember reading ur other post in the Iraq thread when u mentioned "duke of ray" and i was like what the hell are you talking about. hehe, it all makes sense now.

[Bernadotte 0]

He is Duke of Ray, an old banned member of the forums who often got into trouble because of his aggressive Christian fundamentalism.

He comes back now and then with new accounts - but since he can't stay off religion, he always gets caught. I've banned him myself at least three times

I often wonder if the number of Christian Zionists around here is really greater than the number of Israeli contributors who drop by this thread.  In the real world, Christian Zionists probably outnumber Jewish Zionists by around 10 to 1, which is what makes all the anti-Jew rhetoric in the Arab media that much more ridiculous.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Christian fundamentalism

Well then he diffantly supports his president.  

Given Bush his "religious devotion".Just read this piece of text:

Vatican concerns on Bush's "christian" blood cult

On another note ,here's what i could read on Pan-Arabism:

Pan-Arabism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Pan-Arabism is a movement for unification among the Arab peoples and nations of the Middle East. Though its origins can be traced to the anti-Imperialist nationalist movement among Arab peoples preceding World War I, a more formalized pan-Arab ideology was first espoused in the 1940s in Syria by Michel Afleq, a founder of the Ba'ath (Renaissance) Party, combining elements of both socialism and Italian fascism. A pan-Arab ideology lay at the basis of various attempts over the past fifty years to unite various Arab nation-states, most notably the short-lived United Arab Republic, which united Egypt and Syria (and for a brief time, Yemen). Other, more recent efforts to unite various Arab states have focused mainly on Libya, which has attempted unions of various sorts with Egypt, Tunisia, and Morocco.

Modern Pan-Arabism is generally a secular movement and attempts to overcome religious as well as regional differences between its adherents. For example, the upper echelons of Syria's pan-Arab Ba'athist government are Alaouites (a Shi'a sect), yet the unity they espouse would encompass Sunnis, Druze, and Christian Arabs. Similarly, Tariq Aziz, a Christian and the deputy prime minister of Iraq under Saddam Hussein, was another prominent pan-Arabist.

The Syrian government and the former government of Iraq were led by the Ba'ath Party, which espouses pan-Arabism.

[joltan 0]

And it just goes on and on and on...

BBC News

Quote[/b] ]The head of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, Peter Hansen, visited Rafah some 48 hours after the Israeli raid began.

"Many, many houses - as many as 120 - have been completely demolished," Mr Hansen estimated.

"They would have been the homes to 250 - maybe 300 families - and if you multiply that by the family structure, you're talking about a great many people - as many as 1,500 have been made homeless," he added.

[Bernadotte 0]

That happened 2 months ago.  Why post it now?  

EDIT:  Perhaps you meant to post about this.

Quote[/b] ]Early Tuesday, about 40 Israeli tanks and armored vehicles entered the Rafah refugee camp on the Gaza-Egypt border, Palestinians said.

Seven Palestinians, including at least four civilians, were killed and at least 40 other people, including nine children, were wounded by Israeli gunfire, hospital officials said. It was the bloodiest day in Gaza in two months.

The army said Tuesday's raid was not in response to the ambush in central Gaza late on Monday, in which two officers were killed - the first Israelis killed in a month. At least 25 Palestinians have died in violence over the same period. An army spokesman said soldiers entered Rafah "as part of a continuous fight" to destroy tunnels for smuggling arms from Egypt. The last such operation in October lasted more than a week.

[joltan 0]

Ups - somehow they had linked this article on the main page today... Didn't check the date of the article itself.

Anyways, it very well ilustrates how 'selective' Israel goes about destroying the homes of so called 'terrorists'... 1500 of them???

[miles teg 1]

There was also this bit of news that was just a footnote in Reuters but I think incredibly important news that I haven't seen in the American media:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....protest

It's the equivalent of some US Army Delta Force commandos refusing to go to war in Iraq. Americans would call for them to be executed as traitors or at least try them as deserters if they did that here in the US.

At any rate I think that it's very telling that members of the most elite forces of the IDF are standing up and voicing their opinions. They are the spearpoint of Israel's policy towards the Palistinians so if anyone should know that the policy is not working it is them.

Even former high ranking Israeli intelligence officials are speaking out against Israel's policies (like the new fences they're putting up) as only encouraging terrorism by taking away hope from the Palistinians as their territories are ripped apart by these fences purely to protect illegal settlements deep in Palistinian territories and in violation of past peace treaties and accords.

Apollo...about what you mentioned about Pan-Arabism. It's also a question of religion as well. In Islam the Islamic world body (called the "Uma") is supposed to defend fellow Muslims if they are being oppressed unjustly. Hence the reason you see Jihadis in Chechnya, Afghanistan, China, and Iraq.

Israel probably tops the list of "oppressors of Muslims" as seen by most Muslims. That doesn't mean that all Muslims hate Jews, but I think it's fair to generalize that most of them hate Zionists who use ancient history to justify their land claims.

So for many Muslims they feel it is their duty to either support terrorist groups in the Palistinian terrorists even if they don't agree with their tactics because currently they're the only ones fighting the Israelies. At the very least most support giving money for humanitarian aid to the Palistinians...money that often ends up getting used to buy arms and explosives.

Overall I don't think that there are any good guys in that conflict... just two groups fighting dirty over land. (Israel with massive firepower and Palistinians with horrific suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks)

I think that the security fence is actually a good thing (as it keeps them apart), but they stuck it in the wrong places. They should make it clear that the fence is temporary and that once they negotiate borders with the Palistinians they'll move the fences to those borders (most likely with money from American taxpayers and/or the United Nations).

But sadly I think the borders they are creating with this fence are the ones that they are going to stick with.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think that the security fence is actually a good thing (as it keeps them apart), but they stuck it in the wrong places. They should make it clear that the fence is temporary and that once they negotiate borders with the Palistinians they'll move the fences to those borders (most likely with money from American taxpayers and/or the United Nations).

But sadly I think the borders they are creating with this fence are the ones that they are going to stick with.

Well i think it is a bad thing ,apart from the obvious fact that the wall is build inside Palestinian territory there is also the problem that theyre is simply not enough manpower to effeciantly man the wall over the whole lentgh that it is propposed to have.Were talking several 100's of kilometers here at the finished stage.The goal of the wall is to provide security ,but it's most questionable if the wall be effective to well organized terrorist organizations.

[miles teg 1]

True, but keep in mind that the wall also is loaded with sensors and patrols. Still I wonder how effective it will be against stopping tunnels beneath the wall. It also won't of coarse stop mortar and rocket attacks, but at least those forms of weapons are easier to defend against with counter-battery radar equipment that can pinpoint the location of enemy artillery and thus move troops and helicopter gunships immediately to that location...or call in counter-battery fire to flatten that whole area regardless of civilian casualties.

Still tunneling is long difficult work and I think that overall the wall will definitely lower the number of attacks overall until the Palistinian terrorist organizations figure out new tactics.

The main problem I see with this wall is the way its used to carve up the Palistinian territories in a manner that dashes any hopes of a true Palistinian nation. If Israel wants to remain stubborn about their settlements, then there will always be terrorism there.

I would predict that there will be more emphasis on the usage of artillery by the Palistinian militant groups as well as emphasis on other weapons such as sniper rifles. Remember that one sniper that killed like 10 or 11 IDF troops?

A well trained sniper is very difficult to deal with. In Russia they had to resort to clearing sniper infested buildings with armored anti-aircraft guns like the ZSU-23-4 Shilka because the snipers would fire from deep within a room of a building where counter-snipers could not spot them. It is likely that Palistinian militants will do the same from populated buildings. The resulting Israeli response will likely kill many civilians and draw more sympathy towards the Palistinians. Israeli patrols are also likely to be targetted more often and they may use refined tactics such as luring in the D0 Bulldozers to destroy a particular building that they have rigged with heavy AT mines to destroy the bulldozers. I saw Palistinian gunmen on the news yesterday shooting at one of these bulldozers in vain.

You'd think that with all these suicide belts they make, that they could make a simple shape charged explosive that they could attach to bulldozers and other light armored vehicles not protected by supporting infantry. Shape charged explosives aren't difficult to make at all once you have the actual explosives, blasting caps, and a detonator of some sort.

In short I think it's going to suck badly for the IDF troops that are going to be sent in on search and destroy missions to find snipers and mortar/rocket positions in the Palistinian territories. It's going to suck even worse for Palistinian civilians.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]True, but keep in mind that the wall also is loaded with sensors and patrols.

Yeah i knew i thought for myself that it would be pretty obvious to use multiple electronic devices to make detection of the enemy's better.And probably come centralized quick reaction brigade's behind the wall's to give backup to any point under stress.However even then.Were talking about a wall over a few 100's of kilometers here.

Ill try to put my points in a list on that wall so that we can break it down.

1) How easy will it be for good organized Terrorist groups (the essence of the problem) to negate the wall tottaly even if it is fully completed? Take in mind:

-incursion over air

-incursion over or under water (out gaza using middeteranian sea ,or dead sea and Jordan)

-incursion by using a other country to pass by

-incursion by using fake workers id's to enter Israel

To my oppinion ,even if the Wall would work in stopping the people that want to get in Israel along it ,then still IMO it would be easy to surpass by other transport means ,and the groups like Hamas who are the main problem for Israel are well organized enough to negate this obstacle.

2) On this we agree ,the wall will enrage the Palestinian's and in the short term will make the Palestinian state impossible if completed and builded along the israeli settlements rather than the normal "borders".The Israeli have stated that by completing this wall they hope it would become obsolete and that they eventually can return the land after that ,i however am of the oppinion hat the Wall will only spawn more attacks many of them directed on the wall wich will only justify it's exisance more.

3) How much will such a wall cost for Israel? What will be the price to upkeep a wall that is hundreds of kilometers long? Will that be manageble financially?

4) Will this Wall have any diplomacy advantage's ?If it deminsiches the Power of Arafat and the stabilety in his country ,and thus the power of Arafat over groups like Hamas ,then how do the israeli effectivly hope to cantain Hamas with this diplomaticly?

I found youre text on the conventional warfare of Palestinians interresting.Can't understand how these palestinian snipers can be truly seen as terrorists though ,they use conventional method's on conventional incursion's by Israeli troops.

I reckon the Palestinians need more conventional warfare rather than terrorism to have their case justified to most of the world ,however how effective can it be?

Indeed ,explosion's and mines would be nessecary against Israel's modern MBT's like the Merkhava's.

How should we regard these incursion's by Israel and the anwer of such sniper's etc.? Can we talk about Israeli hunting down terorists for such incursions in Palestinian lands if they target Palestinians using conventional defensive weapons fortified in civilian houses.IMO the justification for defense here is greater than that of incursion.

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]

Yeah i knew i thought for myself that it would be pretty obvious to use multiple electronic devices to make detection of the enemy's better.And probably come centralized quick reaction brigade's behind the wall's to give backup to any point under stress.However even then.Were talking about a wall over a few 100's of kilometers here.

Ill try to put my points in a list on that wall so that we can break it down.

1) How easy will it be for good organized Terrorist groups (the essence of the problem) to negate the wall tottaly even if it is fully completed? Take in mind:

-incursion over air

-incursion over or under water (out gaza using middeteranian sea ,or dead sea and Jordan)

-incursion by using a other country to pass by

-incursion by using fake workers id's to enter Israel

To my oppinion ,even if the Wall would work in stopping the people that want to get in Israel along it ,then still IMO it would be easy to surpass by other transport means ,and the groups like Hamas who are the main problem for Israel are well organized enough to negate this obstacle.

Over air... that would difficult.  I believe it was tried once before unsuccessfully with powered hang gliders.  But still such an attak at night be an option... but the chances of success I think would be slim as the pilot would have to be loaded with an explosive belt and find a crowd to dive into.  

All Israel would have to do is set up some old flack guns with proximity shells in order to shoot down such slow flying aircraft unless the pilot came in very low... but then he'd likely just be shot by security forces using machine guns.  What is more likely perhaps is ballons loaded with explosives who's explosives could be remotely dropped over settlements.  But those are prone to wind conditions, and again likely to be detected by soldiers using night vision equipment and then shot and detonated before it managed to float over any homes.  Mobile mortar units or remotely launched rockets with timers on them would be the more likely option.  Al-Qaeda and Taliban forces use this technique against US forces in Afghanistan very effectively.  

But in that region they've refined unconventional warfare more then perhaps any other place in the world from their experiences fighting the Russians, fighting each other, and fighting as Mujahadin in Chechnya.  

Incursion from the water- That's already been tried and Israeli patrols shot and killed the Palistinian frogman/suicide bomber who tried to infiltrate using scuba gear.  But there may always be on lucky frogman that gets in.  The problem is that very few Palistinians can get ahold of wetsuits and scuba gear and Israelies classify stuff like that as potential weapons and thus ban that stuff from entering Palistinian territories.

Using other countries to launch attacks may be possible...but security is heavy on those borders as well (especially with Lebanon) and they would just put up more walls on those borders more then likely.  Alot of those borders already have alot of security fences with areas that are heavily mined.

Fake or even legit workers ID's may get them in... but not with explosives.  I'm not sure what their procedures are with women however.   But I've seen in some areas where even before men approach the gates, they are told to stop, lift their shirts and turn in a circle before proceeding towards the gate.   I'm not sure if this is standard procedure however or whether it's just during times of heavy attacks by militants.

The other method that I mentioned however seems most likely which is tunneling.    That and simply blasting holes through the wall and quickly entering Israel and disappearing into neighborhoods.   Tunneling however can be detected by ground penetrating radar (as used to locate North Korean tunnels under the DMZ between N. & S. Korea).   Blasting through the fence would require enormous amounts of careful engineering to produce the right type of shape charge.  If there is a outer or inner wire fence with sensors, that also would have to be delt with which is the reason for the "buffer zones" on both sides of the fence...which are designed to deal with such attempts at penetrating the fence.  

Quote[/b] ]

2) On this we agree ,the wall will enrage the Palestinian's and in the short term will make the Palestinian state impossible if completed and builded along the israeli settlements rather than the normal "borders".The Israeli have stated that by completing this wall they hope it would become obsolete and that they eventually can return the land after that ,i however am of the oppinion hat the Wall will only spawn more attacks many of them directed on the wall wich will only justify it's exisance more.

I agree with that assessment.

Quote[/b] ]

3) How much will such a wall cost for Israel? What will be the price to upkeep a wall that is hundreds of kilometers long? Will that be manageble financially?

They have stated that it will cost 2 billion dollars.  But that money is likely coming from the billions in American military assistance.  They'll just have to cut back in production of some of their weapons systems like the Merkava MKIV.

Quote[/b] ]

4) Will this Wall have any diplomacy advantage's ?If it deminsiches the Power of Arafat and the stabilety in his country ,and thus the power of Arafat over groups like Hamas ,then how do the israeli effectivly hope to cantain Hamas with this diplomaticly?

They won't.  If Israel is actually successful in stopping most of the terrorist attacks by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and similar Palistinian terrorist groups, one of two things may happen.  They may either: 1). Wage a more conventional/urban war against IDF troops with mortar/attacks to draw IDF forces into Palistinian territories and into well prepared ambush zones.   Or, 2). they'll turn their attention to Israel's main bankroller, the United States and in doing so, join forces with Al-Qaeda by encouraging the hundreds of thousands of Palistinians living abroad to wage Jihaad and by infact encouraging immigration of it's young people in order to carry out attacks against the United States.... while also encouraging Muslims everywhere to attack the United States.

Fortress Israel is one thing... it's a very small country.   But fortress America with airtight borders would be incredibly difficult with our huge borders with Canada and Mexico along with our vast coastlines.   Islam is also actually growing quite fast in the United States.  In my own research I've run into lots of American converts who became curious about Islam after 9/11 just to see what Islam was truly about, and they ended up converting to it.

Quote[/b] ]

I found youre text on the conventional warfare of Palestinians interresting.Can't understand how these palestinian snipers can be truly seen as terrorists though ,they use conventional method's on conventional incursion's by Israeli troops.

I reckon the Palestinians need more conventional warfare rather than terrorism to have their case justified to most of the world ,however how effective can it be?

Indeed ,explosion's and mines would be nessecary against Israel's modern MBT's like the Merkhava's.

Well these snipers are regarded as terrorists because they still belong to terrorist organizations, although there are rumors that this sniper was a foreign mercenary brought in. 10 kills is quite impressive for any single engagement by a sniper.  But he was nearly caught as he was forced to leave his weapon, I assume in order to avoid detection as he (or she) slipped away.   Also these snipers would still be regarded as terrorists if they shot at Israeli civilians.  

Yeah I think that if they really want to make their point, that real warfare against ONLY the Israeli military is the way to do it.  Hezbollah was highly effective in this regard as they are the only military force in the world that has defeated Israel in a conflict (although it was mostly politically as Israelies were tired of their sons and daughters dying in Lebanon).  

But regardless of how the occupation of Lebanon ended, much credit goes to the usage of elaborate roadside bombs (often built into rocks) and very daring attacks and raids by Hezbollah forces who have been ranked as some of the most elite forces in the Middle East.   I've seen video of their attacks on the SLA (South Lebanese Army) during their last days, and their infantry tactics in their assaults were absolutely superb, and the aggressiveness in which they carried out their attacks was quite remarkable.  I've only seen that kind of speed, aggressiveness, and precision watching US Army infantry training to conduct assaults.  

Those here in the military (or ex military) who have either been part of or who have witnessed a well trained infantry unit conduct an assault can attest to how impressive it is.  It is like a well oiled machine moving and fighting as one, focusing incredible amounts of violence upon an objective.

But Hezbollah is partly the way it is from going up against one of the most capable armies in the world.    

Likewise, some of the Palistinian militants know what they're doing.  During the infamous raid on the Jenin refugee camp in which most of the camp was levelled (after it was determined too costly to conduct house to house combat), IDF soldiers talked about how the Palistinian gunmen were very well disciplined firing off well aimed single shots and not just random bursts.  They had not been expecting that.  

They also have successfuly destroyed several of the Merkava (I believe MKIII) MBT's which are amongst some of the most heavily armored tanks in the world.  But this was done using enormous amounts of buried explosives. I believe one was a dud 500lb bomb but I don't know if that's true or not.   At any rate such tanks can be defeated with command detonated shape charged explovies (under the tank), or by using stacked AT mines that are again remote detonated simiply because tanks can be equipped with rollers that set off pressure fuzes.  

But again there is the problem of them simply not having enough supplies to wage this kind of war.  

It is very well possible that Israel will win such a war, once they turn the Palistinian territories into a virtual prison (which it already is for the most part).  

The Palistinians may end up just living in misery and going back to throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers or trying to knife them while it takes a back burner in international politics.  

Quote[/b] ]

How should we regard these incursion's by Israel and the anwer of such sniper's etc.? Can we talk about Israeli hunting down terorists for such incursions in Palestinian lands if they target Palestinians using conventional defensive weapons fortified in civilian houses.IMO the justification for defense here is greater than that of incursion.

I would agree... that strategy is what worked in Lebanon and it may end up working in the Palestinian territories.   Whatever the case that sure beats them blowing up innocent civilians.  At least a soldier is a legit target in a war according to international law.   But I think that sniper and artillery attacks on settlements are uinfortunately going to take many civilian lives.  

I wish the Israeli government would just do the right thing to settle this mess once and for all (other then genocide that is).  But it would require tremendous courage and risk to do so.   Such leaders are very rare these days.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>