The Middle East part 2

[python3 0]

You are oversimplifying the whole conflict.

I'm sure that I am, but regardless of how you put it, they won, you lost

They had the bulk of their offensive force over the canal, heading for Cairo. You had the bulk of your offensive force stuck in the middle of the desert, running low on supplies.

Sure, they had a great bit of luck that they managed to outflank your main force etc - but all that aside, the trivial fact that they won remains  

hehe, man u are too blunt for me

well, the bulk of their forces was not much, considering most of it was still coming off c-5's from the US. It would not have been over for us becasue we still had two whole armies not engaged in the conflict yet plus those that were still on the east bank of the canal. I dunno why you would say they were stuck or low on supplies, id love to know where you get this info from. Anyway, no sense in arguing. You see it as a victory, i cant blame you, its written just as you put it everywhere on the internet. No sense in fighting a battle one cant win.

[Bernadotte 0]

It's a fair point, but I'm sure that if Christians and Jews can work out their differences and work together that so can Muslims and Jews.

LOL... Obviously it wasn't a few million Christians who got thrown into refugee camps for several decades, was it?  Besides, it's the right-wing Christians who believe that the "Israelites" must repopulate the Holy Land before Christ can return.  Of course, when he does return the Israelites must convert to Christianity or... or... or suffer a fate worse than anything the Qoran may have in store.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]. Anyway, no sense in arguing. You see it as a victory, i cant blame you, its written just as you put it everywhere on the internet. No sense in fighting a battle one cant win.

I'll agree with you that the 1973 war was not nearly as humiliating for the Arabs as the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars  

[python3 0]

anyway denoir, just to try and convince u otherwise here is a link with some commentary from israeli officials:

October War

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]. Anyway, no sense in arguing. You see it as a victory, i cant blame you, its written just as you put it everywhere on the internet. No sense in fighting a battle one cant win.

I'll agree with you that the 1973 war was not nearly as humiliating for the Arabs as the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars  

i thank you for that much man . Means too much to me!

[Bernadotte 0]

I'll agree with you that the 1973 war was not nearly as humiliating for the Arabs as the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars  

Not to mention the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.  However, I don't think it's very meaningful or fair to say that wars started by Israel, like 1956, 1967 and 1982, were humiliating for the Arabs.

[denoir 0]

I need to do some reading before I make any more statements about the Israel-Arab wars. I just realized that I've been partly confusing the '67 war and the '73 war. Don't get me started on Lebanon, of which I have practically zero knowledge of.

[python3 0]

I need to do some reading before I make any more statements about the Israel-Arab wars. I just realized that I've been partly confusing the '67 war and the '73 war. Don't get me started on Lebanon, of which I have practically zero knowledge of.

yes well, 67 was horrible. That war, even my government cant deny it was the biggest defeat of all time!

[Apollo 0]

Six-Day War

The Six-Day War was a war fought in 1967 between Israel and its Arab neighbors Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. As a result of the war, Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.

Background:

The 1956 Suez War had ended with the defeat of the Egyptian forces. But heavy diplomatic pressure from both the US and the USSR forced Israel to withdraw from the Sinai Peninsula and return it to Egypt which in exchange had agreed to stop sending guerrillas into Israeli territory. As a result, the border with Egypt quieted for a while.

No Arab state had yet recognized Israel's right to exist, and many considered Israel's long-term prospects for survival to be rather dim. The aftermath of the 1956 war saw the region return to an uneasy balance, maintained more by the competition among Egypt, Syria and Jordan than any real resolution of the region's difficulties. Egypt and Syria, who were backed by the Soviet Union, and Jordan, supported by Britain, maintained a constant pressure of guerilla raids on Israeli border settlements. Israeli armed forces were disciplined and enjoyed massive air superiority.

In 1956, when the US refused to help Egypt build the Aswan hydroelectric "high dam" facility, Nasser decided to nationalise the Suez canal, a move which incensed Britain and France. The two former Middle Eastern colonial powers collaborated with Israel, whose invasion was a success. Nevertheless the collusion quickly collapsed under the weight of overwhelming world condemnation. The U.S., U.S.S.R. and U.N. were uncharacteristically in agreement on the issue; the U.S.S.R. even issued veiled threats to use nuclear missiles against Paris or London. The one concession Israel was able to wring from the world out of the whole imbroglio was the stationing of a UN peacekeeping force in the Sinai, the U.N.E.F. (United Nations Emergency Force), to keep that border region demilitarized and ensure Israeli security.

Several years later, in response to Israel's construction of the National Water Carrier, Syria initiated a plan to divert the waters of the Dan (Banias) stream, (through the Jordan river). In addition to sponsoring Palestinian defence against Israel (often through Jordanian territory, much to King Hussein's chagrin), Syria also began shelling of Israeli civilian communities in north-eastern Galilee, from gun emplacements on the Syrian-controlled Golan Heights. Although in 1964, Israel managed to destroy the water-subversion facilities, the border remained a scene of constant conflict, and the Israeli North was under continuous threat from Syrian guns.

On April 7, 1967, a comparatively minor border incident escalated with dizzying rapidity into a full-scale aerial battle over the Golan Heights, resulting in the loss of 7 Syrian MiG-21s and a flight of Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft over Damascus. Border incidents multiplied in frequency, and numerous Arab leaders, both political and military, called for an end to Israeli terror in the region. Egypt (then already trying to seize a central position in the Arab world under Nasser) accompanied these declarations by occupying a position convenient for invading into Israel. Syria shared these views as well, although it did not prepare for an immediate invasion. The Soviet Union actively backed the military aspirations of the Arab bloc.

On May 17, Nasser took the first concrete steps towards war. He demanded that the U.N.E.F. evacuate the Sinai Peninsula (hence: Sinai), a request which UN Secretary-General U Thant immediately complied with, surprising Israel. Nasser's re-militarization of the Sinai was followed by an even more audacious move; on May 23, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, blockading the Israeli port of Eilat at the northern end of the Gulf of Aqaba. Overnight, Nasser had become the hero of the Arab world; he had vindicated Arab pride by standing up to the Israelis, erasing the "last traces of aggression" from the 1956 war. Almost overnight, the always tense Middle East had slid from a relatively stable status quo to the brink of regional war.

The few regional forces which might have prevented war quickly crumbled. In spite of the will of Jordan's King Hussein, who felt that Nasser's pan-Arabism was threatening his rule, it had numerous supporters in Jordan, and May 30 saw Egypt and Jordan signing a mutual defense treaty. Several days later, Jordanian forces were given to the command of an Egyptian general. Israel called upon Jordan numerous times to refrain from hostilities. However, King Hussein was caught on the horns of a galling dilemma: Allow Jordan to be dragged into war, and face the brunt of the Israeli response; or remain neutral, and risk full-scale insurrection among his own population.

Israel's own sense of concern regarding Jordan's future role originated in Jordanian control of West Bank. This put Arab forces just 17 kilometers from Israel's coast, a jump-off point from which a well co-ordinated tank assault could stop Israel?s long-term plans within half an hour. While the small size of Jordan's army meant that Jordan was probably incapable of executing such a manoeuvre, the country had a long history of being used by other Arab states as staging grounds for operations against Israel; thus, attack from the West Bank was always viewed by the Israeli leadership as a severe threat to Israel's existence.

Israel watched these developments with alarm, and tried various diplomatic routes to try settling them. The U.S. and U.K. were asked to open the Tiran straits, as they guaranteed they would in 1957. Jordan was asked through numerous channels to refrain, weeks before the war by the Zionist lobby in the USA. All Israeli requests for peace were left unanswered, creating a feeling of grave concern for the future of the country. Nasser's move had made war inevitable; indeed, closing the Straits met the international criteria for an act of war. The only question that remained was who would strike first -- and Israeli military doctrine demanded that this aggressive country's battles take place on the soil of its enemies. On June 3 the American administration gave its acquiescence to an operation against Egypt, and plans for war were finally approved.

Warfare :

Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula

Israel's first, and most important move, was to attack the Egyptian Air Force. It was by far the largest and the most modern of all the Arab air forces, sporting about 385 aircraft, all of them Soviet-built and relatively new. Of particular concern were the 45 TU-16 Badger medium bombers, capable of inflicting heavy damage to Israeli military and civilian centers. On June 5 at 7:45 Israeli time, as air alarms sounded all over Israel, the Israeli Air Force audaciously left the skies of Israel virtually unprotected, sending all but a handful of its jets in a mass attack against Egypt's airfields. Egyptian defensive infrastructure was extremely poor, and no airfields were yet equipped with armored bunkers capable of protecting Egypt's warplanes in the event of an attack, especially on the forward bases in the Sinai. The Israelis employed a mixed attack strategy; bombing and strafing runs against the planes themselves, and tarmac-shredding penetration bombs for the runways that rendered them unusable, leaving any undamaged planes unable to take off, helpless targets for the next wave. The attack was successful beyond the wildest dreams of its planners, destroying virtually all of the Egyptian Air Force on the ground with few Israeli casualties, and guaranteeing Israeli air superiority during the rest of the war.

Israeli forces concentrated on the border with Egypt included 3 divisions, which consisted of 9 brigade, of which 5 were armored; there were also three reserve brigades. The Egyptian forces consisted of 7 divisions, five of them infantry and two armored. Four infantry divisions were near the border, an infantry and an armored division in central Sinai, and an armored one in the west. In addition, a reinforced brigade (with 200 tanks) under Colonel Shazly was further south and had orders to encircle Eilat in the case of war. Overall, Egypt had over 100,000 troops and 900 tanks in the Sinai, backed by an appropriate number of artillery guns. This arrangement was based on the Soviet doctrine, where mobile armor units at strategic depth provide a dynamic defense while infantry units engage in defensive battles at the border.

The northern division, consisting of three brigades and commanded by Israel Tal, one of Israel's most prominent armor commanders, found itself slowly advancing through the Gaza strip and Al-Arish, which were not heavily protected. The central division (Avraham Yoffe) and the southern one (Ariel Sharon ?later war criminal), however, entered the heavily defended Abu-Ageila-Kusseima region. Egyptian forces there included one infantry division (the 2nd), a battalion of tank destroyers and a tank regiment.

At that moment, Sharon initiated an attack, precisely planned and carried out. He sent out two of his brigades to the north of Um-Katef, the first one ordered to break through the defenses at Abu-Ageila to the south, and the second to block the road to El-Arish and to encircle Abu-Ageila from the east. At the same time, a paratrooper force was landed that destroyed the artillery, preventing it from engaging Israeli armor. The Egyptian armored regiment commander did not understand the situation, and did not dare to engage himself. Eventually, the unit's men fled by foot leaving all equipment behind. Abu-Ageila fell.

Many of the Egyptian units still remained intact and could be scrambled to prevent Israeli units from reaching the Suez Canal or at least to make them pay a heavy penalty for doing it. However, when the Egyptian Minister of Defense, Field Marshal Abdel Hakim Amer heard about the fall of Abu-Ageila, he panicked and ordered all units in the Sinai to retreat. This order effectively meant the defeat of Egypt.

Due to the Egyptians' retreat, the Israeli Command decided not to pursue the Egyptian units but rather to leave them behind and destroy them in the mountainous passes of West Sinai. Therefore, in the following two days (June 6 and 7) all three Israeli divisions (Sharon and Tal were joined by an armored brigade each) rushed westwards and reached the passes. Sharon's division first went southward then westward to Mitla Pass. It was joined there by parts of Yoffe's division, while its other units blocked the Gidi Pass. Tal's units stopped at various points to the length of the Suez Canal.

Israel's blocking was only partially successful. Only the Gidi pass was captured before the Egyptians approached it, but at other places Egyptian units did manage to pass through and cross the Canal to safety. Nevertheless the Israeli victories were impressive enough, with numerous points in the Sinai filled with hundreds of burning or abandoned Egyptian vehicles. According to many reports, Israel massacred hundreds of Egyptians whose families would never know what had happened to their brave sons.

On June 8th, Israel completed capturing the Sinai by sending infantry units to Ras-Sudar on the western coast of the peninsula. Sharm ash-Sheikh, at its southern tip, was already captured a day earlier by units of the Israeli Navy.

Several tactical elements made the swift Israeli advance possible. The first is the complete air superiority the IAF has achieved over its Egyptian counterpart; the second--the unique morale among the Israeli troops who believed they were fighting for Israel?s eventual position as a world power greater than even the USA; and the third--the lack of coordination among Egyptian troops and as a result their inability to help each other, use the artillery or summon any reinforcements. The former two also proved paramount during fighting in the Jordanian and Syrian fronts.

West Bank:

As stated above, Jordan unlike Israel never wanted the war to take place. Much pressure has been put, however, by Jordanians who wanted to stop the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, for Jordan to join the warfare. Some even claim that President Nasser used the obscurity of the first hours of the conflict to convince King Hussein that he was victorious; he claimed as evidence a radar sighting of a squadron of Israeli aircraft returning from bombing raids in Egypt which he claimed to be Egyptian. While this explanation seems very queer, it is recorded that one of the Jordanian brigades was sent to the Hebron area in order to link with the Egyptians (!). Whatever King Hussein's reason may have been, he decided to attack.

Prior to the war, Jordanian forces included 11 brigades (total of 60,000 troops), equipped by some 300 modern Western tanks. Of them, 9 were deployed in the West Bank and 2 in the Jordan valley. The Jordanian ground army was relatively well-equipped and well trained. Furthermore, Israeli post-war briefings claimed that the Jordanian staff acted professionally as well, but was always left behind "half a turn" by the Israeli moves. The Royal Jordanian Air Force, however, consisted of only about 20 Hawker Hunter fighters, obsolete by all standards.

Israeli Central Command forces consisted of five brigades. The first two were permanently housed in Jerusalem and were called "Jerusalem" and the mechanized "Harel". An elite paratrooper brigade was summoned from the Sinai front, Mordechai Gur's 35th. An armored brigade was allocated from the General Staff reserve and brought to the Latrun area. The 10th armored brigade was stationed north of Samaria. The Northern Command provided a division (3 brigades) which was stationed to the north of Samaria and led by Elad Peled.

On the morning of June 5, Jordanian forces made two minor (one could say symbolic) thrusts in the area of Jerusalem and shelled it. Units in Qalqiliya fired several shots in the direction of Tel-Aviv. The Royal Jordanian Air Force attacked Israeli airfields. Both air and artillery attacks caused little damage. Israel, however, had had enough, and Israeli units were scrambled to attack Jordanian forces in the West Bank. In the afternoon of that same day, IAF strikes destroyed the Royal Jordanian Air Force. By the evening of June 5, the infantry Jerusalem brigade moved south of Jerusalem, while the mechanized Harel encircled it from the north.

On June 6, the Israeli units made their bloody moves: The paratrooper brigade completed the Jerusalem encirclement in the area called "The Ammunition Hill" (which was the site of a bloody battle). The reserve armored brigade attacked Ramallah through Latrun. The Harel brigade continued its push to the mountainous area north-west of Jerusalem. By the evening, the brigade arrived in Ramalla.

The Jordanian forces in Samaria amounted to 4 divisions, one of them being the elite armored 40th. The I.A.F. caught the 60th Jordanian Brigade from Jericho on its way to reinforce Jerusalem and annihilated it on the open road with massed airstrikes. One battalion from Peled's division was sent to check Jordanian defenses in the Jordan Valley. A brigade belonging to it captured Western Samaria, another captured Jenin and the third (equipped with light French AMX-13s) engaged Jordanian Pattons to the east.

On June 7 heavy fighting ensued. Gur's paratroopers captured Jerusalem's old city. The Jerusalem brigade then reinforced them, and continued to the south, capturing Judea. The Harel brigade proceeded eastward, descending to the Jordan river. In Samaria, one Peled's brigades seized Nablus; then it joined one of Central Command's armored brigades to fight the Jordanian forces, equal in numbers and superior in equipment.

Again, the air superiority of the I.A.F. proved paramount as it immobilized the enemy, leading to its defeat. One of Peled's brigades joined with its Central Command counterparts coming from Ramallah, and the remaining two blocked the Jordan river together with the Central Command's 10th (the latter crossed the Jordan river into the East Bank to provide cover for Israeli engineers while they blew the bridges, but was quickly pulled back because of American pressure).

Golan Heights:

During the evening of June 5th, Israeli air strikes destroyed two thirds of the Syrian Air Force, and forced the remaining third to retreat to distant bases, without playing any further role in the ensuing warfare. A minor Syrian force tried to capture the water plant at Tel Dan (the subject of a fierce escalation two years earlier). Several Syrian tanks are reported to have sunk in the Jordan river. In any case, the Syrian command abandoned hopes of a ground attack, and began a massive shelling of Israeli towns in the Hula Valley instead.

June 7th and 8th passed in this way. At that time, a debate had been going on in the Israeli leadership whether the Golan Heights should be assailed as well. Military wisdom, however, suggested that the attack would be extremely costly, as it would be an uphill battle against a strongly fortified enemy. Moshe Dayan believed such an operation would yield losses of 30,000, and opposed it bitterly. Levi Eshkol, on the other hand, was more open to the possibility of an operation in the Golan Heights, as was the head of the Northern Command, David Elazar, whose unbridled enthusiasm for and confidence in the operation may have eroded Dayan's reluctance. Eventually, as the situation on the Southern and Central fronts cleared up, Moshe Dayan became more enthusiastic about the idea, and he authorized the operation.

The Syrian army consisted of about 50,000 men grouped in 9 brigades, supported by an adequate amount of artillery and armor. Israeli forces used in combat consisted of two brigades (one armored led by Albert Mandler, the other--the infantry "Golani") in the northern part of the front, and another two (infantry and one of Peled's brigades summoned from Jenin) in the center. The Golan Heights' unique terrain (mountainous slopes crossed by parallel streams every several miles), and the general lack of roads in the area meant that only those Syrian units that were in the path of entering Israeli forces would be able to fight them. Another advantage Israel possessed was the excellent intelligence collected by Mossad operative Eli Cohen (who was later captured and executed) regarding the Syrian battle positions.

The I.A.F., which had been attacking Syrian artillery for four days prior to the attack, was ordered to attack Syrian positions with all its force. While the well-protected artillery was mostly undamaged, the ground forces staying on the Golan plateau (6 of the 9 brigades) became unable to organize a defense. By the evening of June 9th, the four Israeli brigades had broken through to the plateau, where they could be reinforced and replaced.

On the next day, June 10, the central and northern groups joined in a pincer movement, but that fell mainly on empty territory as the Syrian forces fled. Several units joined by Elad Peled rose to the Golan from the south, only to find the positions mostly empty as well. During the day, the Israeli units stopped on an arbitrary line (there's no natural geographic boundary at that area), that later became the cease-fire line known as the "Purple Line".

War at air and sea :

During the Six-Day War, the I.A.F. demonstrated the crucial importance of air superiority during the course of a modern conflict. It was able to ruthlessly paralyze the helpless Arab forces and to grant itself air superiority over all fronts; it then complemented the strategic effect of their initial strike by carrying out tactical support operations. Of particular interest was the destruction of the Jordanian 60th armored brigade near Jericho and the attack on the Iraqi armored brigade which was sent to attack Israel through Jordan.

In contrast, the Arab air forces never managed to produce a considerable effect: Attacks of Jordanian fighters and Egyptian TU-16 bombers into the Israeli rear during the first two days of the war were not successful and led to the destruction of the aircraft (Egyptian bombers were shot down while Jordan's fighters were destroyed during the attack on the airfield).

War at sea was also extremely limited. Movements of both Israeli and Egyptian vessels are known to have been used to intimidate the other side, but neither side has ever engaged the other at sea. The only moves that yielded any result were the unleashing of 6 Israeli frogmen in Alexandria harbor (they were captured, having sunk a minesweeper), and the Israeli light boat crews capturing the abandoned Sharm As-Sheikh.

On the second day of the war (June 6), King Hussein and Nasser declared that American and British aircraft took part in the Israeli attacks. This announcement was intercepted by the technologically cunning Israeli?s and turned into a media frenzy. This became known as "The Big Lie" in American and British circles and further flamed the anti-muslim and anti-arab feeling in the US and UK media in particular. This was the beginning of the propaganda assault against Arab peoples by the Zionist lobby.

On the fourth day of the war (June 8), USS Liberty, an American electronic intelligence vessel, was attacked by Israeli air and sea forces, nearly sinking the ship and causing heavy casualties. While Israel claimed the attack to be a case of mistaken identity, a claim subsequently supported by independent Israeli and U.S. inquiries, certain Western observers disagree. For discussion, see Israeli attack on USS Liberty.

Conclusion of conflict and situation after war

By June 10, Israel has completed its last offensive, the one in the Golan Heights. On the following day, a cease-fire was signed. Israel had seized the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank of the Jordan River (including East Jerusalem), and the Golan Heights. Overall, Israel's territory grew by a factor of 4 including hundreds of Arabs who were to now be disposeessed. Israel's strategic depth grew to at least 300 kilometers in the south, 60 kilometers in the east and 20 kilometers of extremely rugged terrain in the north, a security asset that was far from useless, as the Yom Kippur War would show six years later.

The political importance of the Six-Day War was immense; Israel demonstrated that it was not only able to but also to initiate strategic strikes that would change the regional balance in its favour but that it had far greater and more malevolent plans when it came to a new world order. Egypt and Syria learnt the tactical lessons of the Six-Day War, but perhaps not the strategic ones, and were to initiate one more strike, Yom Kippur War, before learning that Israel was no longer the fragile state of the early 1950s that was able to defend itself each time by the money it gleaned from the world via international jewry in big business.

Yet another aspect of the war touches on the population of the captured territories: about 150,000 Palestinians in the West Bank, about 80,000 to 100,000 of them were forced to flee to Jordan, where they contributed to the growing unrest. The rest stayed, and lived under Israeli military occupation and were treated in inhuman ways. Only the inhabitants of East Jerusalem and Golan Heights were allowed to receive Israeli citizenship, as Israel annexed these territories in the early 1980s. See also Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Israel's initial intention regarding the lands was one of expansion; Both Jordan and Egypt eventually withdrew their claims to West Bank and Gaza (the Sinai was returned on the basis of Camp David accords of 1977 and the question of the Golan heights is still negotiated with Syria). By the late 1970s, Israel sponsored the building of numerous settlements on the territories designed to improve Israeli foothold in the region; however the political effect of these settlements and its influence on the local Arab population was severe and went against the Geneva convention for human rights.

The Six-Day War also laid the foundation for the future discord in the region--as on November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 242, the "land for peace" formula, which called for the end of terror based on Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967 in return for the end of all states of ?belligerency?. In essence Israel was pretending to be the just state, which only intended to create peace. In fact the opposite was true. The discord in the middle-East lends the Israelis a cohesiveness they would otherwise lack and the potential for further gains on an international level.

War of Attrition :

In the 1969-1970 war of attrition, Israeli planes made deep strikes into Egypt. In early 1969, fighting broke out between Egypt and Israel along the Suez Canal. The United States helped end these hostilities in August 1970, but subsequent U.S. efforts to negotiate an interim agreement to open the Suez Canal and achieve disengagement of forces were not successful.

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Yom Kippur War

The Yom Kippur War (also known as the October War and Ramadan War), was fought from October 6 (the day of Yom Kippur) to October 22/24, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Egypt and Syria.

Summary:

President Nasser of Egypt died in September 1970. He was succeeded by Anwar Sadat, considered more moderate and pragmatic than Nasser. However, to counter internal threats to his power and improve his standing in the Arab world, Sadat resolved to fight Israel and win back the territory lost in 1967. The plan to attack Israel in concert with Syria was code-named Operation Badr (the Arabic word for "full moon").

Egypt and Syria attempted to regain the territory under Israeli occupation by force. Their armies launched a joint attack ? the Syrian forces attacking fortifications in the Golan Heights and the Egyptian forces attacking fortifications around the Suez Canal and on the Sinai Peninsula. The troops inflicted heavy casualties on the Israeli army. After three weeks of fighting, however, and resupplied with ammunition by a large-scale U.S. airlift operation, the IDF pushed the forces back beyond the original lines.

Background:

This battle was part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, a conflict which has included many battles and wars since 1948. In the Six-Day War in June 1967, Israel had occupied the Golan Heights in the north and the Sinai Peninsula in the south, right up to the Suez Canal.

In the years following that war, Israel erected lines of fortification in both the Sinai and the Golan Heights. In 1971, Israel spent $500 million fortifying its positions on the Suez Canal, a chain of fortifications and gigantic earthworks known as the "Bar-Lev Line", named after Israeli general Haim Bar-Lev. After the overwhelming victory against the massed Arab armies in 1967, and having emerged undefeated from the three-year long War of Attrition with Egypt in the south and several border incidents with Syria in the north, the Israeli leadership had grown somewhat complacent. Flush with a sense of their own overwhelming military superiority, they failed to recognize the aggressive effort made by their enemies, Egypt in particular, to rearm and reorganize their armies into a far more disciplined fighting force that could challenge the IDF.

In 1971 Anwar Sadat stated that if Israel were to unilaterally withdraw from all land it conquered during the 1967 war, Egypt would consider a comprehensive ceasefire or truce. Israel was reluctant to withdraw from so much territory without any guarantee of a peace treaty from Egypt and, at that time, with no chance at all of a peace treaty with any of its Arab neighbors. In response, in 1972 Anwar Sadat publicly stated that Egypt was committed to going to war with the State of Israel, and that they were prepared to sacrifice one million Egyptian soldiers. From the end of 1972 Egypt began a concentrated effort to build up its forces, receiving MiG-23s, SAM6s, RPG-7s and especially the 'Sagger' ATGM (Anti-tank Guided Missile) from the Soviet Union) and improving its military tactics.

In 1972 and 1973 Sadat publicly declared again that Egypt would go to war with Israel unless it unilaterally withdrew from all the territory it conquered in 1967. In 1973 Sadat went on a diplomatic offensive to convince African nations, European nations and the Soviet Union to back his war against Israel. Since the Soviet Union was trying to better relations with the US through détente, the Soviet Union refused to accede to Sadat's demands for yet more weapons and public backing for a war against Israel. In response, Sadat expelled some 20,000 Soviet advisers from Egypt.

In an interview published in Newsweek (April 9, 1973), Sadat again threatened war with Israel. However, as this threat had been repeated many times since 1971, the Israeli military did not take it seriously. Blinded by the success of the Six-Day War, the Israeli civilian leadership and military intelligence were unable to treat the possibility of an Arab attack seriously. Several times during 1973, the Arab forces conducted large-scale exercises that put the Israeli army, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), on the highest level of alert, only to be recalled a few days later. The Israeli leadership already believed that if an attack took place, the Israeli Air Force would be able to repel it easily ? and now they became increasingly convinced that the attack would simply not take place.

Most analyses of the Egyptian intentions in the war assume that they involved the reconquest of all or most of the Sinai, which was indeed the publically stated objective. However, certain Egyptian writers later maintained that Sadat's instructions to his generals were only to capture a strip of a few kilometers wide on the east side of the Suez Canal. As Israeli military archives, and Egyptian documents captured by Israel during the war, started to become available, a number of Western historians have begun to support this version. For example, this is the opinion of Dani Asher, whose book was published by the Israeli Ministry of Defence in 2003. Absolute certainty may need to wait until the Egyptian archives are opened.

The War:

Certain other Arab and Muslim nations were involved in this war, providing additional weapons or financing. Exact amounts of support are uncertain. According to some sources, Iraq sent a squadron of Hunter jets to Egypt. During the war itself, Iraq sent a division of 18,000 men and a few hundred tanks, which were deployed in the central Golan; these forces, including some of Iraq's MiG fighter aircraft, did play a role in the war. The nations of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait gave financial aid and sent soldiers to join in the battle. Saudia Arabia sent 3,000 Arab soldiers to Syria, which engaged the Israeli forces on the approaches to Damascus. Between 1971 to 1973, Qadhafi's Libya sent Mirage fighters to Egypt, and it gave Egypt some $1 billion to arm Egypt for war. Algeria sent squadrons of fighters and bombers, armored brigades, and dozens of tanks. Tunisia sent over 1,000 soldiers, who worked with Egyptian forces in the Nile Delta. Sudan sent 3,500 soldiers; Morocco sent three brigades to the front lines.

In the Golan Heights, the Syrians attacked the Israeli defenses of two brigades and eleven artillery batteries with five divisions and 188 batteries. Over three days of fighting, the 7th Israeli brigade in the north (commanded by Yanush Ben-Gal) managed to hold the rocky hill line defending the northern flank of their headquarters in Nafah. The battle of Latakia, a revolutionary naval battle between the Syrians and the Israelis, took place on October 7, the second day of the war, resulting in a resounding Israeli victory that proved the potency of small, fast missile boats equipped with advanced ECM packages. The battle also established the Israeli Navy, long derided as the black sheep of the Israeli services, as a formidable and effective force in its own right.

To the south, however, the brigade nicknamed Barak did not have a natural obstacle to defend from, and was badly mauled as the Syrians pushed inwards towards the Sea of Galilee. At one point, the only obstacle between the Syrian attackers and Nafah was a single tank (the so called Zvika force). However, the tide in the North soon turned, as the arriving Israeli reserve forces were able to contain the Syrian offensive. The tiny Golan Heights was too small to act as an effective territorial buffer, unlike the Sinai Peninsula in the south, and the Israelis gave the northern front first priority for their still-mobilizing reserves. By October 11, the Syrians were pushed back beyond the 1967 frontier.

In the following days, the Israeli forces pushed into Syria. From there they were able to shell the outskirts of Damascus, only 40 km away, using heavy artillery. A ceasefire was negotiated on October 22, based on a return to pre-war borders.

In response to the Israeli success and the US support of Israel, on October 17 the Arab states declared an oil embargo against the west.

The Egyptians burst across the Suez Canal and had advanced up to 15 km into the Sinai desert, with the combined forces of two army corps. They were opposed by the Israeli "Sinai" division, which they overcame with relative ease and whose counter-attacks they repelled. The Israeli counter-attacks in air and on land were unsuccessful because of the new anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles the Arabs had.

However, the Egyptians had not planned to develop on their initial success, and their forces were now thinly spread at the Canal, vulnerable to a counter-attack. On October 15, a division led by Ariel Sharon managed to breach the line between the Second and the Third Egyptian armies and to create a bridgehead; on the night of October 16/17, an Israeli bridge was deployed on which passed the divisions of Avraham Eden (Bern) and Sharon. They wrought havoc on the lines of supply of the Third Army stretching south of them. A ceasefire was then negotiated following pressure from the USSR and the United States.

The ceasefire did not end the sporadic clashes along the ceasefire lines nor did it dissipate military tensions. On March 5, 1974, Israeli forces withdrew from the canal's west bank, and Egypt assumed control. Syria and Israel signed a disengagement agreement on May 31, 1974, and the UN Disengagement and Observer Force (UNDOF) was established as a peacekeeping force in the Golan.

U.S. efforts resulted in an interim agreement between Egypt and Israel in September 1975, which provided for another Israeli withdrawal in the Sinai, a limitation of forces, and three observation stations staffed by U.S. civilians in a UN-maintained buffer zone between Egyptian and Israeli forces.

------------------------------------------------------------

1982 Lebanon War

The 1982 Lebanon War (called Operation Peace for Galilee by Israel) broke out in June 1982, when Israeli forces invaded Lebanon, and, within a few weeks of fierce fighting with PLO and Syrian forces, managed to occupy southern Lebanon, up to and including Beirut, and to drive the PLO out of the country.

Background:

After a PLO attack on a bus full of civilians in northern Israel, killing many, and the Israeli retaliation also causing casualties, Israel launched Operation Litani in March 1978, occupying most of the area south of the Litani River. In response, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 425 calling for the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces and creating the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), charged with maintaining peace. Israeli forces withdrew later in 1978, turning over positions inside Lebanon along the border to a Lebanese ally, the South Lebanon Army (SLA) under the leadership of Maj. Saad Haddad, thus informally setting up a 12-mile wide "security zone" to protect Israeli territory from crossborder attack.

In 1981 heavily armed forces of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) occupied large areas of southern Lebanon. Attacks against the State of Israel increased; The PLO's armed forces used Lebanon as a base to attack Israel with rockets and artillery. PLO militants fought with Lebanese forces, and killed many thousands of Lebanese citizens. Due to continued civil war since 1975, Lebanon had no effective central government at the time.

In June 1982, following an assassination attempt against its ambassador in London by the Abu Nidal Organization, Israel launched Operation Peace of Galilee, in another attempt to drive the PLO forces out of the country, and secure peace for its northern towns and villages.

Course of Fighting

Outcome of the War:

In August 1982, the PLO withdrew its forces from Lebanon. With U.S. assistance, Israel and Lebanon reached an accord in May 1983 that set the stage to withdraw Israeli forces from Lebanon. The instruments of ratification were never exchanged, however, and in March 1984, under pressure from Syria, Lebanon canceled the agreement. In June 1985, Israel withdrew most of its troops from Lebanon, leaving a small residual Israeli force and an Israeli-supported militia in southern Lebanon in a "security zone," which Israel considered a necessary buffer against attacks on its northern territory.

Heavy Israeli casualities and a lack of clear goals led to increasing disquiet among Israelis at the war as well. Israel finally withdrew from the "security zone" in 2000, during the Prime Ministership of Ehud Barak. Israel continues to control a small area called "Sheeba Farms", which Lebanon and Syria claim to be Lebanese territory but Israel insists to be former Syrian territory with the same status as the Golan Heights. The UN position is that the territory is Syrian.

*Just to clear out wich war is wich ,with all the conflict's Israel has had it'w becomming confusing.

[python3 0]

just a tadbit more on the '73 war :

Quote[/b] ]The October 1973 War

Israel Table of Contents

The Meir government's rejection of Sadat's peace overtures convinced the Egyptian president that to alter the status quo and gain needed legitimacy at home he must initiate a war with limited objectives. On Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement, October 6, 1973, Syria and Egypt launched a surprise attack against Israel. In the south, waves of Egyptian infantrymen crossed the Suez Canal and overran the defense of the much touted Bar-Lev Line. In the north, Syrian forces outnumbering the Israeli defenders (1,100 Syrian tanks against 157 Israeli tanks) reached the outer perimeter of the Golan Heights overlooking the Hula Basin. In the first few days of the war, Israeli counterattacks failed, Israel suffered hundreds of casualties, and lost nearly 150 planes. Finally, on October 10 the tide of the war turned; the Syrians were driven out of all territories conquered by them at the beginning of the war and on the following day Israeli forces advanced into Syria proper, about twenty kilometers from the outskirts of Damascus. The Soviet Union responded by making massive airlifts to Damascus and Cairo, which were matched by equally large United States airlifts to Israel. In the south, an Egyptian offensive into Sinai was repelled, and Israeli forces led by General Ariel Sharon crossed the canal to surround the Egyptian Third Army. At the urgent request of the Soviet Union, United States Secretary of State Henry Kissinger went to Moscow to negotiate a cease-fire arrangement. This arrangement found expression in UN Security Council Resolution 338, which called for a cease-fire to be in place within twelve hours, for the implementation of Resolution 242, and for "negotiations between the parties concerned under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East." Following Kissinger's return to Washington, the Soviets announced that Israel had broken the terms of the cease-fire and was threatening to destroy the besieged Egyptian Third Army. Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev informed Nixon that if the siege were not lifted the Soviet Union would take unilateral steps. The United States pressured Israel, and the final cease-fire took effect on October 25.

The October 1973 War had a devastating effect on Israel. More than 6,000 troops had been killed or wounded in eighteen days of fighting. The loss of equipment and the decline of production and exports as a consequence of mobilization came to nearly US$7 billion, the equivalent of Israel's gross national product (GNP) for an entire year. Most important, the image of an invincible Israel that had prevailed since the June 1967 War was destroyed forever. Whereas the June 1967 War had given Israel in general and the declining Labor Party in particular a badly needed morale booster, the events of October 1973 shook the country's self-confidence and cast a shadow over the competence of the Labor elite. A war-weary public was especially critical of Minister of Defense Dayan, who nonetheless escaped criticism in the report of the Agranat Commission, a body established after the war to determine responsibility for Israel's military unpreparedness.

Israel's vulnerability during the war led to another important development: its increasing dependence on United States military, economic, and diplomatic aid. The war set off a spiraling regional arms race in which Israel was hard pressed to match the Arab states, which were enriched by skyrocketing world oil prices. The vastly improved Arab arsenals forced Israel to spend increasingly on defense, straining its already strapped economy. The emergence of Arab oil as a political weapon further isolated Israel in the world community. The Arab oil boycott that accompanied the war and the subsequent quadrupling of world oil prices dramatized the West's dependence on Arab oil production. Evidence of this dependence was reflected, for example, in the denial of permission during the fighting for United States transport planes carrying weapons to Israel to land anywhere in Europe except Portugal.

The dominant personality in the postwar settlement period was Kissinger. Kissinger believed that the combination of Israel's increased dependence on the United States and Sadat's desire to portray the war as an Egyptian victory and regain Sinai allowed for an American-brokered settlement. The key to this diplomatic strategy was that only Washington could induce a vulnerable Israel to exchange territories for peace in the south.

The first direct Israeli-Egyptian talks following the war were held at Kilometer 101 on the Cairo-Suez road. They dealt with stabilizing the cease-fire and supplying Egypt's surrounded Third Army. Following these talks, Kissinger began his highly publicized "shuttle diplomacy," moving between Jerusalem and the Arab capitals trying to work out an agreement. In January 1974, Kissinger, along with Sadat and Dayan, devised the First Sinai Disengagement Agreement, which called for thinning out forces in the Suez Canal zone and restoring the UN buffer zone. The published plan was accompanied by private (but leaked) assurances from the United States to Israel that Egypt would not interfere with Israeli freedom of navigation in the Red Sea and that UN forces would not be withdrawn without the consent of both sides. Following the signing of this agreement, Kissinger shuttled between Damascus and Jerusalem, finally attaining an agreement that called for Israel to withdraw from its forward positions in the Golan Heights, including the return of the Syrian town of Al Qunaytirah. The evacuated zone was to be demilitarized and monitored by a UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF).

[EiZei 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3338413.stm

Quote[/b] ]Arabs push for Israel to disarm

Egypt wants Israel to sign up to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty

Arab states have responded to Libya's pledge to abandon its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programmes by demanding that Israel do the same.

Im not holding my breath..

[Apollo 0]

Well it is in a sense funny though.Non prolifiration of WMD in the Middle East seems important enough for the U.S to use it as casius belli for non-complying country's ,however the Israeli have a NBC programs for decades now.

[python3 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3338413.stm

Quote[/b] ]Arabs push for Israel to disarm

Egypt wants Israel to sign up to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty

Arab states have responded to Libya's pledge to abandon its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programmes by demanding that Israel do the same.

Im not holding my breath..

hehe, me either. Weve been pushin for a long time. Now the US is demanding Syria disarms, and yet, it looks the other way when it comes to israel.

[Scorpio 0]

I need to do some reading before I make any more statements about the Israel-Arab wars. I just realized that I've been partly confusing the '67 war and the '73 war. Don't get me started on Lebanon, of which I have practically zero knowledge of.

yes well, 67 was horrible. That war, even my government cant deny it was the biggest defeat of all time!

Al-Sahaf: "The infidels have not defeated us. We are approaching their capital now."

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]It can't be about religion either. Of the three book religions, Islam is the most liberal in regard to accepting other religions.

Ok, I am not a Muslim, but I can read, and so can you:

Here are some quotes from the Koran:

Quote[/b] ]2:190And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult or oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Quote[/b] ]5:54 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.

Quote[/b] ]8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Quote[/b] ]9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Mr. Picky

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]It can't be about religion either. Of the three book religions, Islam is the most liberal in regard to accepting other religions.

Ok, I am not a Muslim, but I can read, and so can you:

Here are some quotes from the Koran:

Quote[/b] ]2:190And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult or oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Quote[/b] ]5:54 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.

Quote[/b] ]8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Quote[/b] ]9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Mr. Picky

Im too tired, could somebody else dig up the old testament and start quoting it for mr. picky here?

[Scorpio 0]

I'm sorry but those quotes are just damn right lies. I don't see anywhere in the Qur'an where it says it. They don't necesserily mean 'fight anybody who doesn't believe in your beliefs'. The real interpretation means stand up and speak out against those who opress, and defend and/or fight for yourself if they fight you. These quotes are interpretations, not translations. It is impossible to translate the Qur'an literally. I highly doubt that those quotes are the actual interpretations of a passage of the Qur'an.

Either way, Islam is still very tolerant of other religions...at least I am.

[python3 0]

scorpio, dont waste your time. Anybody can go on the internet and put in islam in the search field. The first few pages of websites, will be written by a bunch of christian conservatives and christian fundamentalists who just pick out quotes and translate them, without reading the entire passage to get the full meaning. BEsides how do you know if wha they posted is the correct translation? I didnt know you spoke classical Quaranic arabic. So Mr. Pick Axe do us all a favor and do some real reseach before posting such nonsense.

and of course, here are some quotes from the Quran about tolerance:

Quote[/b] ]Islam affirms a special bond between Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Jews and Christians are addressed in the Holy Quran as O People of Book, meaning people of the Torah and the Bible. Jews, Christians and Muslims are viewed as kindred-people whose faiths are all based on divinely-revealed scriptures and who share in a common prophetic tradition. In particular, the Holy Quran emphasizes the relationship of closeness between the followers of Islam and Christianity:

...and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say 'We are Christians' T.Q., Sura 5, The Table Spread, verse 82.

In the Holy Quran, Allah orders Muslims [and, in fact, all sincere believers] to believe in Jesus, Moses, and all the other Biblical prophets, as all were sent by Him as a mercy to humankind:

Say Ye: 'We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord; We make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah in adherence and submission. T.Q., Sura 2, The Cow, verse 136.

Islamic tolerance is not limited to the People of the Book, but extends to all faithful, sincere, and righteous lovers of truth. Allah affirms in the Holy Quran that:

Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabaeans, any who believe in Allah, and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. T.Q., Sura 2 of 114, The Cow, verse 62.

The sincere believers of all religions, in fact, form one company of the righteous, and Allah extends His grace to them with complete justice:

For Muslim men and women, (for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise), for them hath God prepared forgiveness and a great reward. T.Q. Sura 33, The Confederates, verse 35.

Islam unequivocally affirms the right of each individual to freedom of thought and religion. If one takes the time to read the Holy Quran and study the life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his close followers, one will find that they built a society based on love, lenience, justice and brotherhood. One will also discover that their acceptance of Islam was a result of reasoning, conviction, and satisfaction, not violence, compulsion or oppression. The Holy Quran commands,

Let there be no compulsion in religion, Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. T.Q., Sura 2, The Cow, verse 256.

Islam insists that all people [not just Muslims] enjoy freedom of religion and worship. Islam considers sacred all religious places of worship [whether Jewish, Christian or Islamic] and asks Muslims to defend the right of liberty of worship for all. Islam seeks the establishment of a universal, liberal society in which all can live enjoying religious freedom in safety and equality. Allah says:

Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of God is commemorated in abundant measure T.Q., Sura 22, The Pilgrimage. verse 40.

Another feature of religious tolerance in Islam is the idea that, where religious differences exist, the followers of various religious traditions should engage one another on a basis of mutual respect and kindness. Islam enjoins Muslims to conduct any dialogue or even disagreement about religious matters in a spirit of gentleness, sensitivity, and good will and never with hostility or violence. Allah says in the Holy Quran:

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book except with means better T.Q., Sura 29, The Spider, verse 46.

Recognizing that Allah, the Lord of all, is the sole Judge and greatest knower, Muslims are encouraged to approach all such discussions with gentleness:

Invite all to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for the Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance. T.Q. Sura 16, The Bee, verse 125.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]It can't be about religion either. Of the three book religions, Islam is the most liberal in regard to accepting other religions.

Ok, I am not a Muslim, but I can read, and so can you:

Here are some quotes from the Koran:

Would you care to post a link to your source for those quotes?

Quote[/b] ]5:54 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.

According to this source, verse 5.54 is actually quite different:

5.54 O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

A common problem that many people in Western cultures have when attempting to understand Islam is that they are not only dealing with translated texts, but often they are dealing with translated interpretations of the Qu'ran as well. To put that into a different perspective, I live in what is called America's Bible Belt. A large number of my friends belong to evangelical Christian denominations, and many of these sects rely on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. Now, an interesting sidenote is that while 'fundamentalist' could supposedly mean a literal interpretation of Biblical texts, in reality it means that every single one of these sects (indeed, many of the individuals within said sects) have surprisingly divergent notions of what their religion espouses. An entertaining (from an agnostic's point of view) result of this is that these many beliefs, coupled with the ancient Protestant habit of fragmenting from a parent church, has created a situation where our fairly small city is host to no less than three Church of Christ (evangelical, fundamentalist Christian) churches, and they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's not about the Palestinians, that's for sure. If they would have been so worried about their "brothers" the Palestinians, then surely they could have used a fraction of their enormous oil income to give them monetary aid. And as always most political problems have its roots in economic problems. The Palestinians are mostly unhappy with their situation because they live under shitty circumstances with very little or no economic resources. So why don't the Arab states, if they now care so much about the Palestinians, help them out economically? And why are the Arab countries fairly unwilling to take Palestinian refugees?

RIGHT ON THE DAMN DOT THEIR Denoir

Thats exactly my opinion , if the Arabs here care that much about Palestinians then i say bloody re-patraite them here its sick to see the King sitting lavishly talking bull 24/7 and doing nothing

Fuck if you care so much and have strong feelings then either go through with it (war) or bring the palestinians back hell they are the ones who are suffering there and no one gives a damn about it.

If i ahd it my way i'd bring the whole PALSTINIAN populace here and keep em here Israel wanna lick their land or whatever leave them be , do what you want with it.

Pick axe how about you shove those quotes where theres no sun shine

[Pick Axe 0]

Ok, like I said, I am not a muslim, and further more, I don't read arabic. I got those quotes from this site:

www.interesting-information.com/islam/jihad.htm

If they are not literal translations, please point me in the direction of some.

Quote[/b] ]Im too tired, could somebody else dig up the old testament and start quoting it for mr. picky here?

The Old Testament are the OLD laws. Jesus set up the new laws in the NEW Testament Gospels.

Quote[/b] ]Matt. 5:43-44"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

Mr. Picky

[joltan 0]

Actually the bible itself can be very different depending on the translation - when comparing US bible quotes with my old (1912) catholic bible or a more recent protestant bible, the two german texts are quite similar (but for a bit more modern language in the protestant text), but differ both a lot from the english version.

A good example is the famous Pulp Fiction quote - if I would translate the english text to German it would mean something quite different to what I find in my german bibles...

It all depends on who does the translations (and what his beliefs/intentions are), what his sources are, etc. This is a common problem with translations - and a very big problem if people start interpreting the translated texts without crosschecking with the original sources...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I'm sure that if we translated the Qu'ran through Babelfish the world's current religious conflicts would be really interesting.

[Acecombat 0]

Heres a tip ask the person who knows the language and sk him what it means and dont ALWAYS depend upon translations to be accurate