The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

* s i g h *

Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

(see p. 57 for examples)

At age 26, Colonel Ariel Sharon lead a commando raid to demolish homes in the Palestinian village of Qibiya, killing around 69 civilians.  He claimed that he thought the homes were empty.

Background on Qibiya.

It is false to state that the raid's purpose was to demolish houses. It was to kill Jordanian Fedayen in reprisal for the constant cross border Jordanian attacks on Israel.

So here we go again.

Perhaps you've been playing a bit too much OFP, but the commando unit that you believe only set out to kill Jordanian Fedayen was armed with enough explosives to demolish over 50 homes.  How do you kill a Jordanian Fedayen by demolishing Palestinian homes, claiming later that you thought they were empty?  And why didn't they kill any Fedayen?

Quote[/b] ]In the early 80s, an Israeli investigating committee found Sharon indirectly responsible for the massacre of over 800 Palestinian women, children and elderly in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps near Beirut.  That same Israeli committee recommended that Sharon never again be allowed to hold a governmental position as high as Defence Minister.  LOL...

LOL indeed. get your facts straight again. The Kahan Commissions concluding words on Sharon are:

"We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office - and if necessary, that the Prime Minister consider whether he should exercise his authority under Section 21-A(a) of the Basic Law: the Government, according to which "the Prime Minister may, after informing the Cabinet of his intention to do so, remove a minister from office."

The full Kahan Commission Report can be read here, should you ever bother.

Your link to the full Kahan Commission Report conveniently leaves out Appendix A and B.  Perhaps it is you who needs to get the facts straight, again.

Quote[/b] ]Hitler probably stands a better chance of finding a soft spot in Israeli hearts than Sharon does with Palestinians.

That would explain why Palestinians admire Hiltler. Always have. Always will.

You are a racist.  Always have been.  Always will be.

[theavonlady 2]

* s i g h *

Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

(see previous page for an example)

If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

And I've said nothing racist. However, your flamebaiting comment of Israelis liking Hitler before the Arabs like Sharon is one of your new not-suprising-anymore lowpoints.

Quote[/b] ]

At age 26, Colonel Ariel Sharon lead a commando raid to demolish homes in the Palestinian village of Qibiya, killing around 69 civilians.  He claimed that he thought the homes were empty.

Background on Qibiya.

It is false to state that the raid's purpose was to demolish houses. It was to kill Jordanian Fedayen in reprisal for the constant cross border Jordanian attacks on Israel.

So here we go again.

Perhaps you've been playing a bit too much OFP, but the commando unit that you believe only set out to kill Jordanian Fedayen was armed with enough explosives to demolish over 50 homes.  How do you kill a Jordanian Fedayen by demolishing Palestinian homes, claiming later that you thought they were empty?  And why didn't they kill any Fedayen?

I retract my errors. Correction.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]In the early 80s, an Israeli investigating committee found Sharon indirectly responsible for the massacre of over 800 Palestinian women, children and elderly in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps near Beirut.  That same Israeli committee recommended that Sharon never again be allowed to hold a governmental position as high as Defence Minister.  LOL...

LOL indeed. get your facts straight again. The Kahan Commissions concluding words on Sharon are:

"We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office - and if necessary, that the Prime Minister consider whether he should exercise his authority under Section 21-A(a) of the Basic Law: the Government, according to which "the Prime Minister may, after informing the Cabinet of his intention to do so, remove a minister from office."

The full Kahan Commission Report can be read here, should you ever bother.

Your link to the full Kahan Commission Report conveniently leaves out Appendix A and B.  Perhaps it is you who needs to get the facts straight, again.

Link please? I though the appendices were never made public.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Hitler probably stands a better chance of finding a soft spot in Israeli hearts than Sharon does with Palestinians.

That would explain why Palestinians admire Hiltler. Always have. Always will.

You are a racist.  Always have been.  Always will be.

Another lowpoint of yours. Whatever makes you happy.

[Bernadotte 0]

 

* s i g h *

Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

(see previous page for an example)

If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

I do get out of the kitchen... often.  But, I don't go running from it like a coward.

However, your flamebaiting comment of Israelis liking Hitler before the Arabs like Sharon is one of your new not-suprising-anymore lowpoints.

How do you figure?  Why is it flamebaiting to compare Palestinian hate for Sharon with Israeli hate for Hitler?  You <s>begin to</s> sound quite neurotic.

Link please? I though the appendices were never made public.

Will search for A.  B may still be secret.

[theavonlady 2]

 

* s i g h *

Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

(see previous page for an example)

If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

I do get out of the kitchen... often.  But, I don't go running from it like a coward.

You just did.

[toadlife 3]

Will search for A. B may still be secret.

Why do you cite publications that you obvously havn't even seen in your arguments?

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now either you are of the oppinion that the value of a Jewish life is greater than that of a Palestinian

Obviously avon said it even if covertly but this quote clears it up pretty much ..

I never said it. Put your money where your mouth is.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The Palestinians declared war on Israel. They send terrorists over constantly to blow up, shoot, stab

According to her every palestinian has got a plan worked out on how to take down Israel , it kinda puts the Mullah formula of jews taking over the world to shame  

Now your avoiding the issue and talking semantics and gibberish.

LOL whos avoiding what?

You tell me what this quote of your means

Quote[/b] ]The Palestinians declared war on Israel. They send terrorists over constantly to blow up, shoot, stab

Obviously youve generalized the whole nation as in your previous posts its nothing new ...

[theavonlady 2]

Obviously youve generalized the whole nation as in your previous posts its nothing new ...

How stupid of me!

They?

Arafat, Fatach, Hamas, Tanzim, Jihad Islami, PFLP, Force 17, El Aksa Brigades, etc., etc., so on and so forth.

"It", "he" and "she" didn't fit.

I hope your concerns are assuaged now.

[theavonlady 2]

Obviously youve generalized the whole nation as in your previous posts its nothing new ...

How stupid of me!

They?

Arafat, Fatach, Hamas, Tanzim, Jihad Islami, PFLP, Force 17, El Aksa Brigades, etc., etc., so on and so forth.

"It", "he" and "she" didn't fit.

I hope your concerns are assuaged now.

Let me add to my last post.

Regarding recent Palestinian attitudes to the use of violence, the last Palestinian poll I found is dated December 9, 2003. Excerpt:

"Percentage of support for attacks on soldiers and settlers in the

West Bank and the Gaza Strip remains very high at 87%. But supports

for attacks on Israeli civilians drops to the lowest level since

the start of the intifada (48%, compared to 59% last October).

* Despite the high level of support for violence, a large majority of

83% supports mutual cessation of violence while 15% oppose it. And

if an agreement on mutual cessation of violence were reached with

Israel, 53% would support crackdown on those who would continue the

violence. But 80% are worried that such a crackdown would lead to

internal Palestinian strife; on the other hand, 73% believe that

continuation of the violence would impede return to negotiations.

* 64% believe that armed confrontations have helped achieve

Palestinian rights in ways that negotiations could not."

Source: PSR survey.

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

Seriously, this needs to stop... "Inform you about your own country"?! Jeez Bernadotte, I didn't realize you had so much concern for Israel's self awareness... Maybe after me or Avon finishes reading your posts, we will pack up our things and leave this cursed aparthied state. And to heck with those American tax dollars too, I'm moving to Europe!

Look, you both are clearly past the point of discourse. I have little faith you will be able to convince each other to meet at any middle ground at all.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are a racist.  Always have been.  Always will be.

Hitler is admired because he "did something" about the Jews. Being truthful shouldn't be confused with being racist.

[toadlife 3]

Quote[/b] ]You are a racist. Always have been. Always will be.

Hitler is admired because he "did something" about the Jews. Being truthful shouldn't be confused with being racist.

Hmm. Anyone who admires Hitler for what he did to the Jews, I would consider a racist.

[ran 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are a racist. Always have been. Always will be.

Hitler is admired because he "did something" about the Jews. Being truthful shouldn't be confused with being racist.

Hmm. Anyone who admires Hitler for what he did to the Jews, I would consider a racist.

not racist, but xenophobic and anti-semitic

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]You are a racist.  Always have been.  Always will be.

Hitler is admired because he "did something" about the Jews. Being truthful shouldn't be confused with being racist.

Hmm. Anyone who admires Hitler for what he did to the Jews, I would consider a racist.

not racist, but xenophobic and anti-semitic

Isn't anti-semitism a form of racism?

[Bernadotte 0]

 

* s i g h *

Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

(see previous page for an example)

If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

I do get out of the kitchen... often.  But, I don't go running from it like a coward.

You just did.

LOL  I know this isn't easy for you, but why don't you at least show enough courage to answer some of the many questions I've put to you on these last few pages?  You might even consider starting with the ones you deleted when you quoted my last post.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

Seriously, this needs to stop...  "Inform you about your own country"?!  Jeez Bernadotte, I didn't realize you had so much concern for Israel's self awareness...  

Not just me, rufusmac.  Open any newspaper in the world!  Was there one day during the past 5 decades when an article about Israel did not make the top ten international news headlines?  Or are you equally amazed with the major news organisations' obsession with Israel.  I just happen to have a lot of friends and some family there if you really need me to justify my concern to you.  ...Not to mention that innocent people are being killed everyday.

Maybe after me or Avon finishes reading your posts, we will pack up our things and leave this cursed aparthied state.  And to heck with those American tax dollars too, I'm moving to Europe!

Look!  Why not try something a bit more constructive and answer some of the questions on page 57 that Avon chose to <s>run away from</s> ignore.

And thank you for not calling us all confused anti-Semites as she does, although I'll never understand why she spared m21man that label, after his Hitler-was-just-being-truthful post.

[ran 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are a racist. Always have been. Always will be.

Hitler is admired because he "did something" about the Jews. Being truthful shouldn't be confused with being racist.

Hmm. Anyone who admires Hitler for what he did to the Jews, I would consider a racist.

not racist, but xenophobic and anti-semitic

Isn't anti-semitism a form of racism?

does the notion of jew apply any kind of race ? not

[Apollo 0]

@Avonlady:

Here are the figure's how Bernadotte posted them:

Quote[/b] ]Here is a breakdown of 3,481 deaths in more than three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence. The Associated Press reviewed data from the third year of fighting, figures that reveal a 50 percent drop in casualties from the previous year. The numbers are based on information compiled in interviews with relatives, witnesses, doctors and visits to hospital morgues.

TOTAL: 2,583 on the Palestinian side and 898 on the Israeli side. The Israeli figure includes several foreigners, migrant workers, tourists, students on study-abroad programs and staff of international bodies killed in Palestinian attacks. It also includes at least 43 U.S. citizens, most also holding Israeli citizenship.

The Palestinian figure includes an American peace activist crushed by an Israeli bulldozer while trying to stop the demolition of a Palestinian home, a British U.N. official killed by Israeli fire during a gunbattle in the West Bank, a German doctor killed by Israeli fire as he tried to help Palestinians wounded when a rocket slammed into their home, several Egyptians killed in Gaza and two journalists -- one Italian and the other British -- both fatally wounded while working in Palestinian areas.

PALESTINIANS KILLED PREPARING OR CARRYING OUT ATTACKS: 289.

This figure includes suicide bombers, gunmen and Palestinians who died while preparing explosives.

PALESTINIAN MILITANTS TARGETED AND KILLED BY ISRAELIS: 117.

BYSTANDERS KILLED IN TARGETED ATTACKS ON MILITANTS: 88.

PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS: 108.

VICTIMS OF SUICIDE BOMBERS: 436.

DEADLIEST SUICIDE ATTACK: A Palestinian from the West Bank town of Tulkarem killed 29 Israelis on March 27, 2002, during a Passover hotel dinner.

DEADLIEST TOLL FOR PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS: An Israeli F-16 warplane bombing on July 23, 2002, hit a Gaza City apartment building and killed a Hamas military leader, Salah Shehadeh, his bodyguard and 13 bystanders, including his wife, daughter, and eight other children.

ISRAELI SOLDIERS KILLED: 244.

JEWISH SETTLERS KILLED IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA: 146.

FATALITIES UNDER AGE 18:

Israelis: 92.

Palestinians: 319

(excludes suicide bombers or others killed in attacks on Israeli targets).

Breaking this down we get:

Palestinian civilian's killed:

2,583-289-117-108=2069 civilians (deducted are those killed in war or by terrorism)

Jewish civilian's killed:

898-244=654 (deducted are soldies ,settlers are not deducted)

Now we can debate on sources.It's Bernadotte's source so i cant guarantee it's unbiased ,however the source you have is from an Israeli anti-terrorism commitee ,possibly biased to.

We need independant figures.

[EiZei 0]

What are those numbers per capita? Just wondering.

[Bernadotte 0]

Now we can debate on sources.

As stated, the source was AP.  It was quoted by the Guardian, among others.

It's Bernadotte's source so i cant guarantee it's unbiased...

Apollo, are you actually able to guarantee that any source is unbiased?

Personally, I do my best to avoid bias by quoting Israeli or Jewish community sites as much as possible.  I nearly never post from Palestinian sources or Arab media.  My position is pro-Israel and pro-Palestine, but anti-Sharon and anti-Arafat.

We need independant figures.

I generally trust the statistics page of B'Tselem, an important Israeli human rights organisation.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]As stated, the source was AP. It was quoted by the Guardian, among others.

Good enough i would say ,compared to an Israeli antiterrorist commite figures.....

Quote[/b] ]Apollo, are you actually able to guarantee that any source is unbiased?

99% of the cases no ,therefore i always mention it.There are some on-line encyclopedia's written by independant people though that grade all information on confirmed or not ,with all confirmed fact's relating to it added to it.That way ,only factual data is used ,and when using debateable source's thats mentioned.And there are also cases where sources rather prove the reverse point that one would expect from a source of that nationality ,like the last source you gave me ,wich looks interresting to look at.

[Bernadotte 0]

There are some on-line encyclopedia's written by independant people though that grade all information on confirmed or not ,with all confirmed fact's relating to it added to it...

Are you referring to Wikipedia?

Here's an interesting excerpt from Wikipedia's entry under Zionism.

Quote[/b] ]Zionism and the Arabs

The early Zionists were well aware that Palestine was already occupied by Arabs, who had constituted the majority of the population there for over a thousand years.  The Zionist leaders generally shared the attitudes of other Europeans of the period in the matters of race and culture.  In this view the Arabs were one of the world's many primitive races, who could only benefit from Jewish colonisation.  This attitude led to the opposition of the Arabs being ignored, or even to their presence being denied, as in Israel Zangwill's famous slogan "A land without a people, for a people without a land".  Generally though, such myths were propaganda invented by leaders who saw the Arabs as an obstacle to overcome, but not a serious one.  It was hoped that the wishes of the local Arabs could be simply bypassed by forging agreements with the Ottoman authorities, or with Arab rulers outside Palestine.

One of the earlier Zionists to warn against these ideas was Ahad Ha'am, who warned in his 1891 essay "Truth from Eretz Israel" that in Palestine "it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled", and moreover:

"From abroad we are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all desert savages, like donkeys, who neither see nor understand what goes on around them.  But this is a big mistake...  The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future...  However, if the time comes when the life of our people in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place."

 

Though there had already been Arab protests to the Ottoman authories in the 1880s against land sales to foreign Jews, the most serious opposition began in the 1890s after the full scope of the Zionist enterprise became known.  This opposition did not arise out of Palestinian nationalism, which was in its mere infancy at the time, but out of a sense of threat to the livelihood of the Arabs.  This sense was heightened in the early years of the 20th century by the Zionist attempts to develop an economy in which Arabs were largely redundant, such as the "Hebrew labor" movement that campaigned against the employment of Arabs.  The severing of Palestine from the rest of the Arab world in 1918 and the Balfour Declaration were seen by the Arabs as proof that their fears were coming to fruition.

These are the ugly roots of the conflict that Avon, rufusmac and many other Israelis would prefer to ignore or reinvent.  

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Are you referring to Wikipedia?

Yep.it's nice that they say when an piece is not 100% confirmed truth ,i find it one of the best information sources on the net.

And i agree that Zionism is the bases of the whole conflict on itself.And there lies the fault ,it is not because hitler killed so many millions that another people has to loose their land.They could always have gone to the U.S.A ,they were always welcome there.

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]Don't you get tired of always trolling my posts with your racist propaganda, only to run away whenever I attempt to inform you about your own country?

Seriously, this needs to stop...  "Inform you about your own country"?!  Jeez Bernadotte, I didn't realize you had so much concern for Israel's self awareness...  

Not just me, rufusmac.  Open any newspaper in the world!  Was there one day during the past 5 decades when an article about Israel did not make the top ten international news headlines?  Or are you equally amazed with the major news organisations' obsession with Israel.  I just happen to have a lot of friends and some family there if you really need me to justify my concern to you.  ...Not to mention that innocent people are being killed everyday.

Maybe after me or Avon finishes reading your posts, we will pack up our things and leave this cursed aparthied state.  And to heck with those American tax dollars too, I'm moving to Europe!

Look!  Why not try something a bit more constructive and answer some of the questions on page 57 that Avon chose to <s>run away from</s> ignore.

And thank you for not calling us all confused anti-Semites as she does, although I'll never understand why she spared m21man that label, after his Hitler-was-just-being-truthful post.

To be honest, I don't have the energy Avon has to defend israel on this forum.  As you can tell, I hardly post here, although I read often.  Its not that I'm running from the questions, for I don't even know which ones you are talking about; Its just that I see bickering over past wrongs pointless. Whether or not Deir Yassin was a massacre or Jenin was a massacre, or whatever else Israel has "done" actually happened is truthfully not that important, because as Is being shown with you and Avon, the perception is far more powerful than the truth.

Eg.

I've read convincing reports stating that Mohammed Al-Dura was shot by Palestinians, not Israelis.  FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, lets say these reports are true.  What difference would it make in the overall conflict?  He is the poster boy for the al-aqsa intifada.  That will not change.  You can find strong evidence to back up essentially any claim these days, thanks in part to the internet.  The truth is usually hidden far behind a mere newspaper article or editorial.  But that's irrelevant, and I digress.

Perceptions:

The palestinian perceptions of Israel as a brutal apartheid state and Israeli  perceptions of Palestinians hellbent on wiping Israel off the map are responsible for the conflict.  The truth (which IMHO will show that Israel wants security and the Palestinians want '67 borders) is irrelevant.

To better understand this concept of perceptions, study Nietzsche's "slave morality" concept... This a good starting point for Nietzsche's Geneolpgy of Morals in which he discusses this concept.

Another good book, which may shed some light onto why you sometimes find yourselves arguing with an iron wall is, well, The Iron Wall by Avi Shlaim.  It delves deeper into the concepts of Machpolitik Vs. discourse theory which I have touched on before.

Lastly, here is an amazing book if you want to find "responses" to the questions you posted called The Case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz.  I implore you to read it, for I have surely read almost all of Edward Said's work, as well as works by Amira Hass and other palestinian authors.

Final Edit: Amira Hass is not a Palestinian author, but Said is, sorry if that sentence seemed awkward.

[Apollo 0]

One thing that i love at this forum is that it has a varried community of many nationalities and educational background.I find it very interresting to have people like Acecombat as arab and Avonlady as Israeli discussing with eachother over middle east issue's in a quite constructive way actually ,well relativly constructive...

I can understand that Avon skips certain questions (though probably the more difficult ones ) ,afterall she is one of the few here actually defending here side.Most of the people on this thread are liberal Europeans i think anyway ,and these type of folk tend to ask a lot of questions in detail.

So answering them could take time ,sometimes i actually pitty her a bit having to take all these comments and having to try to prove the opposite ,wich is hard.

But then i like the fact that everyone is taking a side here and about all sides are represented here.This way you'll see arguments from all angle's ,and whether or not you agree ,youll probably learn a lot by hearing all these sides their oppinions.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Most of the people on this thread are liberal Europeans

lib·er·al (adjective)

politics  favouring gradual reform, especially political reforms that extend democracy, distribute wealth more evenly, and protect the personal freedom of the individual

Now I really dont understand what is wrong in being a liberal.