The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

Muslims and Jews hate eachother, thats why there is so much tourble. The reasons for hate dates back to early Bible times...

Really?  Muslims were around in biblical times, eh?

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]50 years??  Isreal was on that land long before anyone ever called themselves an arab.  They were there for thousands of years.  Now they have reclaimed thier land.

point 1: The jewish state ruled for a few century's by Israeli monarch's after the exodus is in now way comparable to Israel.

point 2: It didn't exist thousands of years ,a few century's is more correct ,and that was antique times ,about 5000 years ago.The Arabs live in the erea roughly since 600ad ,for about 1400 years up to NOW. (and that now is most important)

point 3: Going back on territorial claims from 5000 years old is retarted ,by this norm France should get claims on England ,England on America ,Mogolia on China and vice versa ,Iraq on Israel (babylonian (or assyrian) occupation anyone) ,....

Point 4:  Even if such a claim were valid after thousands of years, there is nothing morally right about expelling hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and refusing citizenship to millions of indigenous people within your borders.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]The major difference between the Palestinian "terrorist" groups and the IDF is that the terrorists consider civilian targets as legitimate and the IDF does not. The terrorists plot, plan and execute operations that kill Israeli civilians as the primary objective. The IDF does not. When civilian casualties occur from IDF operations they are not planned. While the bottom line is the same meaning, civilians die, the moral upperhand is held by the IDF.

So what they bomb the place to smithereens knowing that civilians are there , nothing too moral about that maybe thats just me though , but would you pull the trigger of a bomb infront of your eyes you knew would kill innocent civilians along with terrorists ? That makes you equal to them.

[Bernadotte 0]

As to Palestinian civilian casualties, you are just arm chair quarterbacking, as you said you have "no clue".  Your not there and you dont know.  Whats obvious to someone who's never seen or experienced conflict except in the movies, newspapers or on TV does NOT reflect the reality of what goes on in the hot spot.

Ok, then please tell me what it is that elevates the American people so far above "armchair quaterback" status that they've given themselves the right to send over $2 billion in military aid each year to just one side in the conflict?

[Acecombat 0]

As to Palestinian civilian casualties, you are just arm chair quarterbacking, as you said you have "no clue".  Your not there and you dont know.  Whats obvious to someone who's never seen or experienced conflict except in the movies, newspapers or on TV does NOT reflect the reality of what goes on in the hot spot.

Ok, then please tell me what it is that elevates the American people so far above "armchair quaterback" status that they've given themselves the right to send over $2 billion in military aid each year to just one side in the conflict?

err a whoppee cushion ?

[Crazysheep 1]

"War is hell" is truly a cliche although it happens to be a good description.  If you think that war can be conducted in such a precise manner that would exclude the death of non-combatants, your smoking dope or you are truly ignorant of history or military affairs for that matter.  

I would like to know which one of you, either Apollo or Crazy Sheep of Python3 has ever been in combat?  If you haven't experienced it, then don't sit there on a high horse and pass valueless judgements on those that do?  I certainly dont advocate the killing of innocents wether they are Palestinian, Israeli, Iraqi, American etc.  But having said that I know that it happens and why it happens.

Soldiers die in training scenarios and field excercises by accident or friendly fire incidents all the time.  In the time that I've been in the military, I've witnessed two deaths and heard of three in my regiment alone.  The point is that no matter are best efforts war is by its very nature  a dangerouse endeavour where killing people is the main function.  PEOPLE WILL DIE! Couple that with the human instinct for survival and the protection of your battle buddies which rides above all else in the final anaylsis.

But if you don't believe, join the Army and opt for the Infantry if you can hack it.  Then maybe you'll end up on my  team or that of one my buddies and I'll make sure you get to be #1 or #2 man in the stack when we go clear a room or house.  

Is that piss running down the FNG's boots?  

The major difference between the Palestinian "terrorist" groups and the IDF is that the terrorists consider civilian targets as legitimate and the IDF does not.  The terrorists plot, plan and execute operations that kill Israeli civilians as the primary objective.  The IDF does not.  When civilian casualties occur from IDF operations they are not planned.  While the bottom line is the same meaning, civilians die, the moral upperhand is held by the IDF.

I'm too young to join the army so obviously I have never seen combat. And just because I'm a kiddo doesn't mean you can disregard my arguments either.

But I don't need to have been in the army to know that pointless civilian deaths should be avoided. You yourself go on to say that the IDF is morally superior because it does not target civilians; but since they are at war (in practise if not technically) by your logic that would mean the Palestinians can kill whoever they want? Just because it is bad is NOT an excuse to lose control. Soldiers panicking on the battlefield is understandable; but being given orders to target civilian buildings is nothing to do with fright in combat.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]The major difference between the Palestinian "terrorist" groups and the IDF is that the terrorists consider civilian targets as legitimate and the IDF does not.  The terrorists plot, plan and execute operations that kill Israeli civilians as the primary objective.  The IDF does not.  When civilian casualties occur from IDF operations they are not planned.  While the bottom line is the same meaning, civilians die, the moral upperhand is held by the IDF.

But then what's the effective difference?Ok the IDF isn't targetting civilians officially ,but in effect due to their actions a larger number of civilians die than by actual Palestinian terrorist atacks.What good does morals do when effectivly the result is till unnesecary bloodshed?It would be bad to think that the mere moral thought of by wich actions are took by the Israeli can justify the concrete effect's it has.In the end ,it's the reality of the conflict that matters ,not the morals thought's leading to it.

Quote[/b] ]I differ from you on the substance of the diplomacy.  If the diplomacy is not backed by visible actions i.e. withdrawal of IDF troops, abandoning settler camps, stopping attacks on Israelis, they can talk till their blue in the face and not an effing thing will change.  

I know that if Sharon keeps to his stance of 1 week off non-violence by the Palestinian's before negotiation's can begin ,then probably those negotiation's will never happen unless under other leadership.So under this circumstances peace will never happen ,and the conflict will further escalate leading directluy or undirectly to the killing of many civilians.With other words the stance you support will probably not lead to negotiation's under the circumstances of leadership in that area we have now.

Quote[/b] ]If Arafat cannot control the terrorist groups then there will be no deal, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.  If you  give in to the demands of your enemy  based on the threat of terrorism youve just accepted that black mailing you is a way to get results.

If Arafat does not have complete control of the situation, then who does?  Who ever does needs to step up and become part of the solution and not the problem.  Your not going to convince anybody to stop restricting you and making your life hard by blowing up their kids, wives or family members.

Depends how you see it.Part of the reason why Arafat can't control hamas and such is because of the action's and power of the Israeli within the palestinian territory's.His nation is so unstable that it's hard to get control over it ,albeit his own goverment infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israeli some time ago ,there is few left of His Ramalah compound.If Arafat would be able to secure the west bank and Gaza for his people in total ,in addition to a Palestinian state recognized by most of the world ,then he would have it much more easy to control such terrorist groups ,as well as actually having a motive to control them while now in his struggle Hamas has actually some value for him.

Quote[/b] ]As I said before there are probably a host of other factors that complicate this scenario.  Internal conflicts between the PLO as well as in the Israeli government by hardliners on both sides, power struggles between the various Palestinian groups, history of broken attempts at diplomacy, relgious fundamentalism and hatred on both sides, all serve as obstacles to a peace accord.

I cannot but agree that more factor's are in play ,were only debating on a few of them ,the nature of Internet discussion is so that you will rarely see the whole scope of an issue discussed in a thread.But i think that we can say that in the debate of whether Zionism/judaism was wrong and the creation of the Israeli state ,that we can say that this is the most important root to the conflict in wich Israel loses most justification for it's current territorial claims in the West-bank and Gaza.

Anyway ,EricZ ,i want to thank you for engaging in this discussion in a constructive way.Youre points hold some merrit and are good material for debate ,and you seem very subtile in making youre points and not offending other's with youre point's.

Posted by Bernadotte:

Quote[/b] ]Don't you mean all of it's territory?  Are you aware of any part of Israel that was not called Palestine, just 56 years ago?

No ,however technicly not all Palestinian territory was just annexed ,some of the land was bought wich in diplomatic terms a justifiable way to aquire land.However that is maybe only 5 to 10% of Israel now ,the rest was just added to it withought much consent with the indiginous population indeed.

Quote[/b] ]but since they are at war (in practise if not technically) by your logic that would mean the Palestinians can kill whoever they want?

That is the hard part of the debate.In principal not all manners of warfare are technicly allowed even in times of war ,and Terrorism is supposed to be illigal under all circumstances.However ,the question really is if what Hamas is doing can be brought under as "terrorism" or as "vertical warfare" wich would make a big difference.Given the nature of the Israeli supperiority on the battlefield one can say that upon the Israeli terrorism by Palestinians is ALSO and act of Assymetric warfare.So in a sense it's both assymetric warfare and terrorism at once.Suffice to say that after 9/11 university's all over the world had problem's with making a clear definition for terrorism due to the fact that within the Israeli/Palestinian conflict Terrorism is about the same as guerilla warfare.

I mean terrorism is about the only way for the palestinians that they can hurt the israeli.In pure conventional warfare the palestinians are hopeless.

[denoir 0]

So, what's up with the rabid Arab anti-Isralism? It seems like one of the few things that Arab countries have in common is that they blame Israel for just about everything.

It's not about the Palestinians, that's for sure. If they would have been so worried about their "brothers" the Palestinians, then surely they could have used a fraction of their enormous oil income to give them monetary aid. And as always most political problems have its roots in economic problems. The Palestinians are mostly unhappy with their situation because they live under shitty circumstances with very little or no economic resources. So why don't the Arab states, if they now care so much about the Palestinians, help them out economically? And why are the Arab countries fairly unwilling to take Palestinian refugees?

So I don't buy that.

It can't be about religion either. Of the three book religions, Islam is the most liberal in regard to accepting other religions. The Jews see themselves as the chosen peoplel - intrinsically an isolationist position. Christians see as their duty to convert everybody else to Christianity - by force if necessary. Islam on the other hand has no problem of co-existing with other beliefs. A good example of that is what happened in parts of Christian Europe during the occupation of the Ottoman empire. The Christians were allowed to keep their churches and nobody was converted by force.

In America for instance, today, the right-wing conservative Christians walk happily hand in hand with conservative right-wing Jews. If the Christians could work out a working relationship with another religion, then anybody else can.

So I don't buy the religious argument either.

So what's the deal?

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]And why are the Arab countries fairly unwilling to take Palestinian refugees?

well, they have taken them. They are still refugees though. Look at Jordan and egypt. They have been housing hundreds of thousands and feeding them for around 35 years now. A lot of palestinians live there. The only problem with making them citizens or taking more, is that these countries are just beginning the long road to economic revival. I know my country needs a growth rate of 6% alone to keep up with the number of people coming out of college. Too many people not enough resources. If we were to add another 600,000-1,000,000 people to the economy, it would be disastrous. We cant even get jobs for our own citizens, let alone refugees.

Besides, why should we take them? They have a right just as any israeli to live in what was once Palestine. Why satisfy the needs of the israeli's only?

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]So what's the deal?

Land.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]So what's the deal?

Land.

Aw, that's crap. Just about the only piece of real-estate in the Mid East that doesn't float on oil. And this in one of the least densely populated areas in the world. Little tiny Israel does not take up much space.

No, we're talking about a general anti-Israelli (or anti-Jew? ) mentallity which blames Israel for everything bad in the world. Just yesterday I saw a poll made by Gallup about who the Iraqi people think is behind the attacks on US troops. 78% said that they thought it was groups linked to Israel.

Quote[/b] ]Besides, why should we take them? They have a right just as any israeli to live in what was once Palestine.

Absolutely, I'm just pointing out that the Arab lack of will to sacrifice anything of theirs for their friends the Palestinans shows how much the Arabs really care about the Palestinian problem. What we are getting from the Arab side is empty rethorics. It takes much more to explain the deep-rooted suspicion and phobia about Israel and the Jews.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Absolutely, I'm just pointing out that the Arab lack of will to sacrifice anything of theirs for their friends the Palestinans shows how much the Arabs really care about the Palestinian problem. What we are getting from the Arab side is empty rethorics. It takes much more to explain the deep-rooted suspicion and phobia about Israel and the Jews.

One has to differentiate the coman muslim man and the coman muslim goverment though.It's not because they Saudi Monarchy is swimming in wealth and takes pro-U.S stances that it's population doesn't live in poverty or doesn't have negative feeling's on the U.S .We all know Democracy isn't really coman in the Middle East.I havn't got much positive feeling's towards those govermnet's ,though i can have symphaties towards their population's.

I guess for youre average Middle East goverment the Palestinian conflict is an easy way to divert attention to other matters.And state media run propaganda can be effective to demonize the U.s for political means ,especially in a country with low education fgures.Does not mean however that there arnt intelectuals in the more democratized part of the Middle-East that are Anti-U.S.

Another reason to get the Palestinian/Israeli conflict solved i reckon , some tyranic goverment's in the Middle-East might collapse due to the lack of good scapegoat.

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]Absolutely, I'm just pointing out that the Arab lack of will to sacrifice anything of theirs for their friends the Palestinans shows how much the Arabs really care about the Palestinian problem. What we are getting from the Arab side is empty rethorics. It takes much more to explain the deep-rooted suspicion and phobia about Israel and the Jews

well, i would not call it a lack of will. Believe me, i know my country people would go to war and continue to do so just to liberate the palestinians. Even though they might not win anytime soon, i know they would try. On the one hand, war is no good and wont solve anything in the long run. If we take in all the refugees and spend billions on improving they're conditions, our economy will get shot. As i said, we have just begun to improve our conditions. Besides, it is israeli policy that is dictating how the palestinian economy goes. If people cant get to work cuz of a roadblock, or farmers lose their land, all the money in the world wont help them cuz they wont have a means of living.

Quote[/b] ]Just yesterday I saw a poll made by Gallup about who the Iraqi people think is behind the attacks on US troops. 78% said that they thought it was groups linked to Israel.

who do you think fed them such disinformation. It was their government. The cause of all their problems was the US which is linked back somehow to israel. All they had were state run tv's and censored internet, if any at all. C'mon. It is so easy for the government which has had control for 3 decades to blame all the problems on a country in a not so friendly position with the arabs.

Quote[/b] ]Just about the only piece of real-estate in the Mid East that doesn't float on oil. And this in one of the least densely populated areas in the world. Little tiny Israel does not take up much space.

Fine, youre right it doesnt take too much space. But it is expanding. That is a problem. Plus some of that little space is jerusalem, which no arab wants israel to have. Not to mention the fact that the israelis should not even be in the west bank. First it was about the whole concept of israel. Now, i think or hope that they have realized that it is here to stay. Now it is about giving the palesetinans a homeland too.

[denoir 0]

I guess for youre average Middle East goverment the Palestinian conflict is an easy way to divert attention to other matters.

Yes, probably, but it's a very stupid way to do it. Most of all because their big talk doesn't have any backing. If anything modern day Arab states are famous for is big empty rethorics and a laughable military capability. One would think that they've been embarrassed enough by defeat after defeat.. but no, they keep shooting their mouth off. And in the end somebody like USA comes and steps on them and brings yet another humiliation.

They have to start facing reality. Calling water shortages in Baghdad a "zionist conspiracy" doesn't really give them many votes of confidence. They really need to stop with all this anti-Jew crap. If anything it makes both their situation and the situation of the Palestinians worse..

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Absolutely, I'm just pointing out that the Arab lack of will to sacrifice anything of theirs for their friends the Palestinans shows how much the Arabs really care about the Palestinian problem. What we are getting from the Arab side is empty rethorics. It takes much more to explain the deep-rooted suspicion and phobia about Israel and the Jews

well, i would not call it a lack of will. Believe me, i know my country people would go to war and continue to do so just to liberate the palestinians. Even though they might not win anytime soon, i know they would try.

Yeah, it went great the last time What was it, you went with a force outnumbering the Israelis 20:1, with the latest Soviet hardware and ended up with Israeli tanks outside Cairo

Again, time for a reality check. Israel isn't going to go away. Learn to deal with it in a constructive way instead of just alienating them even more.

Quote[/b] ]

If we take in all the refugees and spend billions on improving they're conditions, our economy will get shot. As i said, we have just begun to improve our conditions.

Look at the Palestinian refugees in the Arab countries. They're not very welcome at all. They are poor, uneducated and have no work - and therefor are not very popular.

As for the economics, if Saudi Arabia would give 1% of it's GNP to the Palestinans (instead of the 20% or something they waste on weapons they obviously are too incompetent to use), there would be no problem. With that 1% you could make the Palestinians' living conditions decent. And it would cool down the whole situation.

Quote[/b] ]

Plus some of that little space is jerusalem, which no arab wants israel to have.

It's a fair point, but I'm sure that if Christians and Jews can work out their differences and work together that so can Muslims and Jews. I don't see how the religions per-se make sharing Jerusalem a problem.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, probably, but it's a very stupid way to do it. Most of all because their big talk doesn't have any backing. If anything modern day Arab states are famous for is big empty rethorics and a laughable military capability. One would think that they've been embarrassed enough by defeat after defeat.. but no, they keep shooting their mouth off. And in the end somebody like USA comes and steps on them and brings yet another humiliation.

They have to start facing reality. Calling water shortages in Baghdad a "zionist conspiracy" doesn't really give them many votes of confidence. They really need to stop with all this anti-Jew crap. If anything it makes both their situation and the situation of the Palestinians worse..

Those thing's have their root in the general Muslim socioligy.It isn't youre most innovative religion that's for sure.It seems that goverment's in the middle east need time to mature.However ,i think forcing such reform's toward democracy on the short term is political suicide in the Middle East.Look at country's like Marocco ,Tunesia or even Iran.More and more these country's are reforming towards more democracy ,at a slow but constant pace.The complexity's of the Muslim socioligy are as such that any in most secular country's any drastic reform will lead to much resentment.Afcourse many factor's apply ,like oil income for certain state's wich have greatly helped some of those states to fastly inprove their country's educational level and literacy rate ,wich you can see in smaller Oil country's like Kuwait and Quatar.

Definatly ,education and free flow of information are key to the Middle east democratization process.In the case of free flow of information ,hail the growing internet.Emancipation of woman and universal suffrage also helps a lot in getting a more democratic goverment.But many muslim's don't want such reform's , rathers a secular state.

[TexMex Leprechaun 0]

Quote[/b] ]Really? Muslims were around in biblical times, eh?

Sorry, should have been a little more specific. what I mean is, the Israelies fought the ancestors of the people they are fighting today. They have fought in that area almost any time the lived there, and now Israel is fighting for its very exsistance.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Really? Muslims were around in biblical times, eh?

Islam on itself was only founded around 600 AD ,how could there have been Muslim's in biblical times??

Don't you mean samaritans?

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]Absolutely, I'm just pointing out that the Arab lack of will to sacrifice anything of theirs for their friends the Palestinans shows how much the Arabs really care about the Palestinian problem. What we are getting from the Arab side is empty rethorics. It takes much more to explain the deep-rooted suspicion and phobia about Israel and the Jews

well, i would not call it a lack of will. Believe me, i know my country people would go to war and continue to do so just to liberate the palestinians. Even though they might not win anytime soon, i know they would try.

Yeah, it went great the last time What was it, you went with a force outnumbering the Israelis 20:1, with the latest Soviet hardware and ended up with Israeli tanks outside Cairo

Again, time for a reality check. Israel isn't going to go away. Learn to deal with it in a constructive way instead of just alienating them even more.

Quote[/b] ]

If we take in all the refugees and spend billions on improving they're conditions, our economy will get shot. As i said, we have just begun to improve our conditions.

Look at the Palestinian refugees in the Arab countries. They're not very welcome at all. They are poor, uneducated and have no work - and therefor are not very popular.

As for the economics, if Saudi Arabia would give 1% of it's GNP to the Palestinans (instead of the 20% or something they waste on weapons they obviously are too incompetent to use), there would be no problem. With that 1% you could make the Palestinians' living conditions decent. And it would cool down the whole situation.

Quote[/b] ]

Plus some of that little space is jerusalem, which no arab wants israel to have.

It's a fair point, but I'm sure that if Christians and Jews can work out their differences and work together that so can Muslims and Jews. I don't see how the religions per-se make sharing Jerusalem a problem.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, it went great the last time What was it, you went with a force outnumbering the Israelis 20:1, with the latest Soviet hardware and ended up with Israeli tanks outside Cairo

hmm... you wouldn't be referring to the 1973 war, now would you. I actually think we did pretty darn good in that war. Not exactly outside of cairo, but they did cross the canal. As for the latest soviet equipment. i wish. That simply was not the case. Most tanks at the time were t-54/55's. The latest were the t-62's. We had mig-21's the latest, the mig-23. We were outclassed. The soviets never sold us offensive weaponry. It was always defensive in nature. Cant fight a decent offensive war with defensive weapons. Regardless, too long have i heard the israelis brag over this war. Think about it. They were doin so bad in terms of man losses and equipment losses, if it wasnt for the massive US airlift, what would have happened? Anyway, we dont usually hear about the arab soldiers or they're stories. I know the '73 war was a tough one for the israeli's to win. Why did the give the sinai back with such ease? Anyway i would like to recommend two books written by an american pilot and another by british for a perspective on egyptian warfare:

The Two O'clock War by Walter J. Boyne

<u>Phoenix over the Nile: A History of Egyptian Air Power 1932-1994

</u> by Lon O. Nordeen, David Nicolle

I agree on the fcat that israel aint going anywhere. Its time the rest of the arab world moves on.

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]Really?  Muslims were around in biblical times, eh?  

Sorry, should have been a little more specific. what I mean is, the Israelies fought the ancestors of the people they are fighting today. They have fought in that area almost any time the lived there, and now Israel is fighting for its very exsistance.

its very existence..... ok ummm i think their existence is ensured by the only nukes in the ME. I think it is the palestinians that struggle to make it every day.

[Bernadotte 0]

If anything it makes both their situation and the situation of the Palestinians worse..

Isn't that what Zionist conspiracies are supposed to do.  

[denoir 0]

hmm... you wouldn't be referring to the 1973 war, now would you. I actually think we did pretty darn good in that war. Not exactly outside of cairo, but they did cross the canal. As for the latest soviet equipment. i wish. That simply was not the case. Most tanks at the time were t-54/55's. The latest were the t-62's. We had mig-21's the latest, the mig-23. We were outclassed. The soviets never sold us offensive weaponry. It was always defensive in nature. Cant fight a decent offensive war with defensive weapons. Regardless, too long have i heard the israelis brag over this war. Think about it. They were doin so bad in terms of man losses and equipment losses, if it wasnt for the massive US airlift, what would have happened? Anyway, we dont usually hear about the arab soldiers or they're stories. I know the '73 war was a tough one for the israeli's to win.

Well, I hate to bruise your national pride but:

1) You picked the fight

2) You outnumbered them greatly

3) You lost the fight badly

The Israeli victory was not due to Israeli superiority but because of Arab incompetence in warfare. You got lost in the desert for crying out loud. I'm not sure how to put it, but Arabs fight like... Norwegians

Quote[/b] ]Not exactly outside of cairo, but they did cross the canal.

Well, Cairo was in the range of their artillery. And that's when the peace deal was reached very quickly.

Quote[/b] ]

Anyway, we dont usually hear about the arab soldiers or they're stories.

Winners are much more fun to listen to

Quote[/b] ] Why did the give the sinai back with such ease?

Because they took much more territory then they could actually hold. Plus they made a deal in exchange for recognition. AFIK even up until today Egypt is the only Arab country that has officially recognized Israel.

Quote[/b] ]

I agree on the fcat that israel aint going anywhere. Its time the rest of the arab world moves on.

Yes indeed. If the Arab governments started behaving a bit more mature and responsible, it would be much easier to push Israel to stop abusing the human rights of the Palestinians.

[python3 0]

well, it really has nothing to do with pride. I mean, if we lost so terribly as you put it, then i would give it to you and to them. No sense in denying the truth right? But it wasnt as bad of a loss as you make it seem. We simply did not lose the fight so terribly. I probably cant convince you of this, and of course it would take up too much of the thread, so i would just recommend you my two books.

See that whole recognition thing does not work out. I tell you that if it werent for the government, or if someone else were to get into power, there would be war. I think they would have liked to have a nice big buffer. It would make more sense to me.

Quote[/b] ]Well, Cairo was in the range of their artillery. And that's when the peace deal was reached very quickly.

See, you missed out on the whole role that the USSR, US and Kissenger had with this. It was much more than just israel vs. egypt. That Two O'Clock war book, will fill you in on the whole situation. From washington- Moscow, Cario, and TEl Aviv. Again. that is if you choose to read it. Otherwise, i cant say anymore to you about the topic. You are oversimplifying the whole conflict. Sure the israelis have kicked a$$, but onthis war, i would say we kicked just as much.

Jordan does too.

[Bernadotte 0]

...now Israel is fighting for its very exsistance.

According to many Israelis, it is the way Israel is fighting that is threatening its very existence.

[denoir 0]

You are oversimplifying the whole conflict.

I'm sure that I am, but regardless of how you put it, they won, you lost

They had the bulk of their offensive force over the canal, heading for Cairo. You had the bulk of your offensive force stuck in the middle of the desert, running low on supplies.

Sure, they had a great bit of luck that they managed to outflank your main force etc - but all that aside, the trivial fact that they won remains  

Also, they paid a heavy price in casualties and destroyed hardware. Ironically this led to much tighter military cooperation with USA which today makes Israel the strongest military force in the region.