The Middle East part 2

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Put your money where your mouth is. Would you like to share a documented report on how many anti-Jewish/Israeli attacks there have been in Belgium and Europe versus how many anti-Arab attacks?

Ill rather see you return to the territorial right's argument before i go deeper inside thisone.I clearly mentioned it was mostly anti-jew attack's to.It's not a mather of who's doing it ,it's the fact that it happens ,and the underlying reasons for it.

Quote[/b] ]Will you ask all Moslems to kindly remove their ethnic garb? No, I thought not.

Yes we do.Any immigrant planning to stay here is supposed to adopt themselfs to our society.WFailure to do so can even lead to sending them back to home country.

Quote[/b] ]Congratulations! You get your wish!

Goddamned stop twisting my words and make me looks like an antisemite because i talk about stuff you don't like.God youre so radical.I just don't like the fact that due to partly the israeli's and also the Palestinians that we now have this mess in our country to.We didn't ask for that.

Atleast this man did a good thing:

"France's Chief rabbi Joseph Sitruk recently recommended that Jewish boys should wear caps instead of their kippas in order to avoid being physically abused in the streets."

Not that it's right that these boys are abused ,but atleast if they look more integrated they won't be targetted that much.And that's one of the problem's with youre culture ,it's not particulary low profile.

Quote[/b] ]Ah! The great liberal cosmopolitan tollerant European. Indeed, we Jews don't belong there. We've forgotten how many of our Belgian non-jewish neighbors zealously uncovered and handed over the Jews of Belgium to be gassed and cremated by the Nazis. Must run in the genes.

I don't say Jews havn't got the right to live here ,and practice theire religion ,but they must adopt to our culture and not run around like Brussels is Jerusalem.

And you managed to extremely offend me with that last bit.Sufficve to say that there were much more people actually helping them ,one of them albeit being my great grandfather who harboured a 5 head jewish family back in an 10square meters hidden room for 5 years ,and it was not that he had food a plenty in those times.

And youre "run in the genes" comment is really a very terrible one.With this comment youre basicly saying the whole German people is a foul one all responsible for the holocaost (it runs in the genes) and we Belgian's are pure brothers of that.Those are very racial comment's.

Quote[/b] ]BTW, thousands of generations? Really? What percentage of Belgian Jewish today were there before the war? What percentage of Belgian Jews today, in the black Hassidic garn you are so indignant of, do not speak French or Flemish? BTW, what should they wear? Jeans? Noserings? Pierced navels? Should they have skinhead or pink/green/orange punk haircuts, my dear minister of Belgian culture (sic).

All jews here speak french or/and Flemmish ,no problem there.i would guess about 60% f the jews are integrated here ,i have no problem's with that.I only have problem's with jews around here walking publicly in full religious gear ,it inevitably leads to problem's.

Quote[/b] ]There was a time where the Europeans used to tell us "Why don't you Jews get out and go to Palestine where you belong". Many of those still alive today, listened then.

That supposed to be a point? We would never had said to anyone that he should bugger of if he was assimilated here.And we are not responsible for youre whole landgrabbing in Palestine.

Thank you for inuslting my people and continualy twisting my words/evadign good arguments.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes we do.Any immigrant planning to stay here is supposed to adopt themselfs to our society.WFailure to do so can even lead to sending them back to home country.

Sorry but this point is ridiculous i kinda agree with Avon here.

Doyou think if you come here to Saudi Arabia i will ask you to take of your pant shirt and wear a (toob) or robe in english ?

This is very wierd , i wear whatever i like until unless its the law there i dont need to change my clothes. Conforming to a society's norms is fine but not allowing them to wear clothes which they wear usually is stupid.

Quote[/b] ]"France's Chief rabbi Joseph Sitruk recently recommended that Jewish boys should wear caps instead of their kippas in order to avoid being physically abused in the streets."

Not that it's right that these boys are abused ,but atleast if they look more integrated they won't be targetted that much.And that's one of the problem's with youre culture ,it's not particulary low profile.

temporarily this might be a good idea but i dont like it everyone should be free to wear whatever he wants to :

a) cover his body in the best way

b) a religious artifact which is necesarry for him to wear (if not then he should take it off until needed)

I dont know whats the significance of that cap of theirs that they wear , perhaps Avon might enlighten that , but yeah muslims usually wear it too but only whilepraying and while they arent they take it off.

So if they can take it off it would b much better for the moment , as a temporary compromise.

[theavonlady 2]

I dont know whats the significance of that cap of theirs that they wear , perhaps Avon might enlighten that

A kippa (Hebrew), yarmulka (Aramaic - not Yiddish - meaning "Awe of The King") or skullcap (English) is worn by Jewish males, from early childhood.

It's purpose is to remind the wearer and those around him that there are limits to man's intelligence and that as wise as any individual may be, there is someone way above his maximum abilities. It is a sign of piety and humility.

Quote[/b] ]So if they can take it off it would b much better for the moment , as a temporary compromise.

By Jewish law, under circumstances of endangerment, especially if life threatening, this is definitely permissable.

That doesn't give the cause of it a seal of approval, of course.

[Acecombat 0]

Hmm interesting never knew that. Muslims only wear it to cover there head while praying nothing other then that

Quote[/b] ] especially if light threatening,

I hope you meant 'life' threatening here ?

So is the is cap to be worn all the time i mean even during office work or anything ? I thought it was for only during prayer and such.

[Bernadotte 0]

Why do most people believe that america is bad for supporting Israel? why do you guys think israel is the bad boy around there??  hmmm?

[snip]http://www.searchforjustice.org/images/small_women.jpg[/snip]

Wow! 2 ladies with signs! And about the 100th time you posted them.

My reply was directed at bmgarcangel's question, which has been asked about 1000 times.

How about finding the courage to reply to the posts I've directed at you?  

[theavonlady 2]

I hope you meant 'life' threatening here ?

Corrected.

Quote[/b] ]So is the is cap to be worn all the time i mean even during office work or anything ? I thought it was for only during prayer and such.

There is a custom of German Jews to not have to wear a cap when indoors, during work, or similar.

However, this is specifically a German Jewish custom and even many Jews of German origin no longer adhere to this lenient custom.

I'm referring to people who stive to abide by Jewish law day in and day out. There are obviously numerous levels of observance.

[EiZei 0]

Thank you for insulting my country as well, Avon. (yes, I am referring to the nazi europeans-comments)

I have yet to hear about beaten up jews while immigrants from muslim countries experience over two times more violence than the rest of the population according to some recent study.

[Bernadotte 0]

More Israeli response to the Geneva Initiative:

Quote[/b] ]JERUSALEM, Dec 2 (Reuters) - Israel issued a rare rebuke to Washington, its closest ally, on Tuesday, saying U.S. Secretary State Colin Powell would be making a mistake if he met the architects of a symbolic Middle East peace plan.  Vice Premier Ehud Olmert sharply criticised Powell for praising the unofficial Geneva Accord...

So much for freedom of speech in the Middle East's only democracy.

 lmao

[theavonlady 2]

Thank you for insulting my country as well, Avon. (yes, I am referring to the nazi europeans-comments)

Your absolutely welcome.

Quote[/b] ]I have yet to hear about beaten up jews while immigrants from muslim countries experience over two times more violence than the rest of the population according to some recent study.

Sounds like you live on an ostrich farm.

I love this recent one:

US representative calls on EU to publish report on anti-Semitism

More:

After school burning, Chirac orders monthly register of anti-Semitism

EU Sees No Evil

German opposition expels deputy in anti-Semitism row from parliament

ADL Survey of Five European Countries Finds One in Five Hold Strong Anti-Semitic Sentiments.

This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to very recent and ongoing anti-semitism in Europe.

Tel Aviv University Reports Dramatic Increase in Global Anti-Semitic Acts

A small quote:

Quote[/b] ]Location was also significant. Western Europe has led the world in terms of anti-Semitic violence since the outbreak of the second intifada in October 2000, with France, Belgium and the U.K. topping the list.

That was last year and it's gotten worse.

[WhoCares 0]

@acecombat: How about arabic women?  

Maybe 3 stories about tolerance and integration in Germany, all went to the highest courts:

Quote[/b] ]1) Kruzifix (Holy cross)

Someone, don't know whether different ethnic group or atheist, filed a lawsuit against the practice of a cross in every classroom.

Germany strictly differs between state and religion. So it is just consequent to remove religious signs from public classrooms... (IMHO)

Quote[/b] ]2) Schaechten (kosher butchering)

Jewish community requested the permission for kosher butchering (cutting the throat and let it bleed to death, iirc), despite it is against german law, which requires as little pain as possible for the animal

If you live in a foreign country you can't expect it to bend its laws for your religious practices but you should comply to the national laws. With respect to this particular case, they have still the options to live vegetarian, import kosher products from countries where this is allowed or just leave. (IMHO, of course) However, on the other side stands the constitutional right to freely practice your religion...

Quote[/b] ]3) Kopftuch (not sure about the proper word in this case, so choose the one best fitting   )

An arabic woman, teaching in a german public school was disbanded because she insisted to cover here hair traditionally.

Tricky one, and I am undecided on it. Nobody would tell a (spleeny) german teacher to take of his hat if he whore it in the class, but as this woman reflects a religious position with here clothing, she is treated differently...

btw: I don't know the results of those cases above... (at least regarding the woman, the final decision is still open, iirc)

[EiZei 0]

US representative calls on EU to publish report on anti-Semitism

More:

After school burning, Chirac orders monthly register of anti-Semitism

EU Sees No Evil

German opposition expels deputy in anti-Semitism row from parliament

ADL Survey of Five European Countries Finds One in Five Hold Strong Anti-Semitic Sentiments.

This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to very recent and ongoing anti-semitism in Europe.

Tel Aviv University Reports Dramatic Increase in Global Anti-Semitic Acts

A small quote:

Quote[/b] ]Location was also significant. Western Europe has led the world in terms of anti-Semitic violence since the outbreak of the second intifada in October 2000, with France, Belgium and the U.K. topping the list.

That was last year and it's gotten worse.

Last time I checked I didnt live in France, Belgium or Germany.

In case it did not went through your apparently thick skull, My point is that you should not insult every goddamn inhabitant of europe because of something that happened in couple of countries.

[theavonlady 2]

More Israeli response to the Geneva Initiative:

Quote[/b] ]JERUSALEM, Dec 2 (Reuters) - Israel issued a rare rebuke to Washington, its closest ally, on Tuesday, saying U.S. Secretary State Colin Powell would be making a mistake if he met the architects of a symbolic Middle East peace plan.  Vice Premier Ehud Olmert sharply criticised Powell for praising the unofficial Geneva Accord...

So much for freedom of speech in the Middle East's only democracy.

You mean Israel shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions?

Looks like you're the one trying to suppress our freedom of speech.

[bn880 5]

More Israeli response to the Geneva Initiative:

Quote[/b] ]JERUSALEM, Dec 2 (Reuters) - Israel issued a rare rebuke to Washington, its closest ally, on Tuesday, saying U.S. Secretary State Colin Powell would be making a mistake if he met the architects of a symbolic Middle East peace plan. Vice Premier Ehud Olmert sharply criticised Powell for praising the unofficial Geneva Accord...

So much for freedom of speech in the Middle East's only democracy.

You mean Israel shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions?

Looks like you're the one trying to suppress our freedom of speech.

What? I think you're losing most people here Avon...

[theavonlady 2]

In case it did not went through your apparently thick skull, My point is that you should not insult every goddamn inhabitant of europe because of something that happened in couple of countries.

Where did I mention all of Europe, or your country, Finland, in my post that you originally responded to?

I was replying to Apollo, a Belgian, who showed his disdain for those that don't fit his cookie-cutter image of what Belgian (or EU) humans should look like.

[theavonlady 2]

What?  I think you're losing most people here Avon...

Tsk.

[EiZei 0]

In case it did not went through your apparently thick skull, My point is that you should not insult every goddamn inhabitant of europe because of something that happened in couple of countries.

Where did I mention all of Europe, or your country, Finland, in my post that you originally responded to?

I was replying to Apollo, a Belgian, who showed his disdain for those that don't fit his cookie-cutter image of what Belgian (or EU) humans should look like.

Quote[/b] ]

There was a time where the Europeans used to tell us "Why don't you Jews get out and go to Palestine where you belong". Many of those still alive today, listened then.

Tsk Indeed.

Insult Belgians all you want, I dont care really. But, since this is getting really offtopic ill stop here.

[theavonlady 2]

In case it did not went through your apparently thick skull, My point is that you should not insult every goddamn inhabitant of europe because of something that happened in couple of countries.

Where did I mention all of Europe, or your country, Finland, in my post that you originally responded to?

I was replying to Apollo, a Belgian, who showed his disdain for those that don't fit his cookie-cutter image of what Belgian (or EU) humans should look like.

Quote[/b] ]

There was a time where the Europeans used to tell us "Why don't you Jews get out and go to Palestine where you belong". Many of those still alive today, listened then.

Tsk Indeed.

Jews were plenty insulted, too, by such comments. If you're asking me whether such statements were made in Finland? I don't know.

If you're asking me whether they were made in numerous European countries? The answer is yes.

I stand by my comment.

Quote[/b] ]Insult Belgians all you want, I dont care really.

Well, at leats we agree on something.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]@acecombat: How about arabic women?  

Yes what about them?  

Quote[/b] ]3) Kopftuch (not sure about the proper word in this case, so choose the one best fitting )

An arabic woman, teaching in a german public school was disbanded because she insisted to cover here hair traditionally.

Yep i heard this too , this is total bull IMO , a person especially a lady can where what ever she wants in order to cover her body and to guard her modesty/sanctity you cant make her wear clothes which you deem fit ... so what do you want her to come with to school a bra and panty ?

BTW that scarf isnt a religious dress so dont hand us all that religion separated from state bull either.

[WhoCares 0]

From your post on page 42:

Quote[/b] ]I dont know whats the significance of that cap of theirs that they wear , perhaps Avon might enlighten that , but yeah muslims usually wear it too but only whilepraying and while they arent they take it off.

This might be true for men, but for women the rules seem to be more strict, at least in most arabic countries.

About the teacher: Remember, as a teacher in a public school she is an employee and thus representant of the state. But the state is supposed to be neutral with respect to religion.

Just noticed, you say the scarf ain't a religious dress?! Where else does it come from? (I really don't know)

Edit: I just googled a bit, and all (german) pages I found refer to various sura (sp/pl?) in Quran (e.g. 24:31 and 24:60) and a 'citation' of Mohammed as base for the scarf. And all those are obvious religious...

[Bernadotte 0]

More Israeli response to the Geneva Initiative:

Quote[/b] ]JERUSALEM, Dec 2 (Reuters) - Israel issued a rare rebuke to Washington, its closest ally, on Tuesday, saying U.S. Secretary State Colin Powell would be making a mistake if he met the architects of a symbolic Middle East peace plan.  Vice Premier Ehud Olmert sharply criticised Powell for praising the unofficial Geneva Accord...

So much for freedom of speech in the Middle East's only democracy.

You mean Israel shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions?

Looks like you're the one trying to suppress our freedom of speech.

Stop pretending to be such a dough-head.

You know as well as I do that Israel's deputy PM

is not trying to suppress the opinions of the Whitehouse

out of any great love for the freedom of speech.

[theavonlady 2]

You know as well as I do that Israel's deputy PM

is not trying to suppress the opinions of the Whitehouse

out of any great love for the freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech does not come into the issue here.

And criticizing someone and warning that their actions and harms are to the detrement and danger of other people is not suppression of freedom of speech.

My claim is just the flip-side of yours.

[Bernadotte 0]

You know as well as I do that Israel's deputy PM

is not trying to suppress the opinions of the Whitehouse

out of any great love for the freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech does not come into the issue here.

And criticizing someone and warning that their actions and harms are to the detrement and danger of other people is not suppression of freedom of speech.

My claim is just the flip-side of yours.

But it's more than just criticism:

Quote[/b] ]Israel has asked U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell not to meet the architects of an unofficial Middle East peace plan.

-- VOA

If a majority of Israelis support the principles of the Geneva Initiative then why is Israel's Deputy PM warning the Whitehouse against even meeting with the agreement's authors.  What is this detrement and danger that you and he fear?

[Acecombat 0]

From your post on page 42:

Quote[/b] ]I dont know whats the significance of that cap of theirs that they wear , perhaps Avon might enlighten that , but yeah muslims usually wear it too but only whilepraying and while they arent they take it off.

This might be true for men, but for women the rules seem to be more strict, at least in most arabic countries.

About the teacher: Remember, as a teacher in a public school she is an employee and thus representant of the state. But the state is supposed to be neutral with respect to religion.

Just noticed, you say the scarf ain't a religious dress?! Where else does it come from? (I really don't know)

Edit: I just googled a bit, and all (german) pages I found refer to various sura (sp/pl?) in Quran (e.g. 24:31 and 24:60) and a 'citation' of Mohammed as base for the scarf. And all those are obvious religious...

What rule are we talking about here?

The cap men wear has got nothing to do with the scarf women wear , women only wear it while praying too or when outside in an open envoirnment to cover their head plain simple . Whats so strict about this ? besides if you visit SA nowadays or other arab countries this isnt in such strict observance anyways

Quote[/b] ]Just noticed, you say the scarf ain't a religious dress?! Where else does it come from? (I really don't know)

Do you have any idea as to when the scarf was introduced ? Scarf wasnt introduced by Islam .... women in Arabia were wearing it before as well.Yes so what if Muhammed said it and its in the Quran? So according to you just because women in a particular religion wear this piece of cloth it should be banned in a country following some overly-obsessive secularistic idea ? How about banning beards then too ? Since beards are kept by muslims too and some jews as well ? Will the state havea problem with that too? and come to think of it i can even remember a hadis 'citation' by Muhammed on it too .... oops

Jeez all this secularism bull is getting just as worse as Bin laden and talibans zealousness for some ancient religious observance.

[theavonlady 2]

If a majority of Israelis support the principles of the Geneva Initiative then why is Israel's Deputy PM warning the Whitehouse against even meeting with the agreement's authors.  What is this detrement and danger that you and he fear?

Ha'aretz, Israel's radical left wing newspaper, puplished a poll 2-3 days ago. 31% of those poled were in favor. 38% were against. This was a poll based on a whopping less-than-900 participants.

The mood on the street is disgust at a bunch of politicians who were voted out of power by everybody going against the government and trying to ram their grand imbecillic ideas down our throats.

We've been here before.

[Scorpio 0]

From your post on page 42:

Quote[/b] ]I dont know whats the significance of that cap of theirs that they wear , perhaps Avon might enlighten that , but yeah muslims usually wear it too but only whilepraying and while they arent they take it off.

This might be true for men, but for women the rules seem to be more strict, at least in most arabic countries.

About the teacher: Remember, as a teacher in a public school she is an employee and thus representant of the state. But the state is supposed to be neutral with respect to religion.

Just noticed, you say the scarf ain't a religious dress?! Where else does it come from? (I really don't know)

Edit: I just googled a bit, and all (german) pages I found refer to various sura (sp/pl?) in Quran (e.g. 24:31 and 24:60) and a 'citation' of Mohammed as base for the scarf. And all those are obvious religious...

What rule are we talking about here?

The cap men wear has got nothing to do with the scarf women wear    , women only wear it while praying too or when outside in an open envoirnment to cover their head plain simple . Whats so strict about this ? besides if you visit SA nowadays or other arab countries this isnt in such strict observance anyways  

Quote[/b] ]Just noticed, you say the scarf ain't a religious dress?! Where else does it come from? (I really don't know)

Do you have any idea as to when the scarf was introduced ? Scarf wasnt introduced by Islam .... women in Arabia were wearing it before as well.Yes so what if Muhammed said it and its in the Quran? So according to you just because women in a particular religion wear this piece of cloth it should be banned in a country following some overly-obsessive secularistic idea ? How about banning beards then too ? Since beards are kept by muslims too and some jews as well ? Will the state havea problem with that too? and come to think of it i can even remember a hadis 'citation' by Muhammed on it too .... oops

Jeez all this secularism bull is getting just as worse as Bin laden and talibans zealousness for some ancient religious observance.

I agree with you there, brother.

A point to add:

The hijab (female covering of the body) was surely worn by women in the Arab ages before Islam was introduced but most of them were only wearing them over their heads to protect them from the intense heat and light of the day, although some of the sincere Arab families wore it as a sign of humbleness.

Muslims believe that hijab was a command from God in the Qur'an for the muslim women to cover their revealing parts of the body in order to keep the lustful and erotic intentions of another man from looking at them in public. It is not said in the Qur'an that a woman should cover her face, but in some sects of Islam this is supposed to be carried out.

I think this whole 'islamic terrorism' is taken too seriously and blindly. The true way of Islam has been twisted and turned over the centuries, as the true way is a religion of peace and overall being a descent person through following the commandments of God. These people (suicide bombers and alike) think they are doing a good deed by standing up against the oppressing kuffar (non-muslims), but they are blind to the fact they are also killing innocent people in their martyrdom. They were not fully educated and they are thinking that ALL Jews are evil.

What is worse, is that the people like Al Quaeda, Taliban, ect. are carrying out all these evil doings in the name of Islam!. And through this, you get it all over the news: "Islamic extremists", and also racial attacks. What have the innocent muslim people in other countries done? Just because some damn towelhead with a beard shouts "Allahu Akbar" and kills a few people, doesn't mean he is a "muslim", and it surely doesn't mean that true muslims have to be opressed. Really hurts to think about it.

Either way, the few us are not laughing...we're all ready for the true jihad.