The Middle East part 2

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Hmm is that even possible , i thought a jew marrying a non-jew was sort a prohibited or something?  

Glad to see all your rash generalizations and blanket statements about other nationalities and faiths are backed by a solid foundation of background knowledge. Only certain sects of Judaism prohibit marriage outside the faith, the same way certain Christian and Islamic sects do as well. And it most certainly is possible- I wasn't aware that the, *ahem* plumbing differed from creed to creed. As a matter of fact, I believe I'm about 1/16th Jewish (on my dad's side), so that means I'm secretly in charge of Madagascar, Greenland, and the US Virgin Islands.

[Acecombat 0]

Well sorry Tex i dont keep up with guzillions of sects in different religions , i believe in originality and integrity of a religion.

And there arent 'rash' generalizations made by me concerning jews , frankly speaking i dont care about Judaism , but being a muslim judaism is also a part of me as is christainity , so please next time you make a sarcastic remark substantiate it a bit.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Acecombat, I don't know if its a language problem, a problem with your limited knowledge of Judaism or regional/ethnic/religious bias or just plain old curiosity, but I could not help but notice that you do tend to compartmentalise people (ie. put people into drawers, assigning one general label to everyone of the same religion/country/hemishphere).

I don't like this compartmentalisation. It is inhuman. One of the greatest attributes that humans have over (most) animals is that we have an "ego". It means that every human is capable of thinking for himself, of making his own opinions, his own decisions and own choices. Also, it has been proven that experiences tend to influence every single human being. Since every single human being has different experiences, and tends to run through these experiences in different ways, one can arrive at the conclusion that every single human being is unique. That means that putting the same label on several people is just wrong.

Just because someone is a member of the same society/religion/country/whatever, it does not mean that this person has the same feelings/thoughts about certain events. People, as shown before, are individuals. Everyone is different. Not every Israeli is Ariel Sharon, not every Jew is a strict orthodox, not every American is out to take over the world, not every Turk is out to destroy Greece, not every German destroyed Europe, not every British hates the French.

I know it is not easy to not compartmentalise. But it is important to be aware that "the other side" is not a large black mass coming at you, but it is a grey mass that is struggling within as well. For instance, the world's largest peace protests before the Iraqi war were actually held in the US. Over 2 million people in New York, some of my friends including.

What I want you to do is to think about this and stop compartmentalising. Stop thinking in terms of "us" versus "them". Think instead of "this argument". Also, do not get personal in arguments.

Actually, I not only want Acecombat to think about this, I want everyone to think about this. I know I may not be the shiniest example of following this either, but I do try and I am aware of this problem. Please stop putting people into drawers, keep the forums clean of bigotted views. If you are unsure about "the other side", it is not betrayal to ask someone about certain views of "the other side". Send a friendly PM and ask about something that you do not understand, use google and try to understand.

In this day and age, with all resources available, there is no excuse for bigotry Keep the forums clean of this. Thank you

[Bernadotte 0]

@ Nov. 03 2003,08:56)]

Hmm is that even possible , i thought a jew marrying a non-jew was sort a prohibited or something?  

...I wasn't aware that the, *ahem* plumbing differed from creed to creed.

Newsflash for AceCombat:  You don't need to be married to have babies.

Edit: Btw, nice post Ex-Ronin... for a Greek.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

@ Nov. 03 2003,08:56)]

Hmm is that even possible , i thought a jew marrying a non-jew was sort a prohibited or something?

...I wasn't aware that the, *ahem* plumbing differed from creed to creed.

Newsflash for AceCombat: You don't need to be married to have babies.

Edit: Btw, nice post Ex-Ronin... for a Greek.

[Acecombat 0]

Well i am sorry if i may have offeded someone by saying something myself that they might have felt offensive in nature. My apologys to all.

And Ronin that compartmentalisation (jeez what a big word ) that you are talk about might have been excercised by me but only in a political opinion as i think we do say that democracy represents the majority ( i hope you get my point?) ... i dont lump people together generally on the basis of religion/country/andthe like ... hell if i did that i might be lumped with Bin Laden probably...

Quote[/b] ]For instance, the world's largest peace protests before the Iraqi war were actually held in the US. Over 2 million people in New York, some of my friends including

Yes exactly but that didnt acheive anything did it? They must have been a minority considering the war went on ahead and in a democracy only the majority has its say usually dont it?

Thats where my point of arguing ina generalistic fashion comes in even though it may be wrong , but for some reasons it doesnt for e.g

1. The person doesnt show any signs of a differing opinion then the black 'mass' (thats as you explained in your post).

2. Tries to defend the arguments of those in the 'black mass' and falsley gives the impression of representing their opinion himself also.

Quote[/b] ]What I want you to do is to think about this and stop compartmentalising. Stop thinking in terms of "us" versus "them". Think instead of "this argument". Also, do not get personal in arguments.

To tell you the truth i have tried my utmost not to get personal in any arguments and instead have tried to calm myself on occasions when people here have generalized me. You can see that if you follow my posts here.

Those are my 2 cents.

[Guest]

If you haven't ever heard about any of them maybe you should grab a few documentaries about it or something before calling people brainwashed because they dont think like you do.

I don't care how you think.  And I'm not even saying that I haven't heard these fake trial stories before.  But since you are claiming to have seen "too many" of these trials I thought you might be kind enough to share at least one of your sources of info.  Obviously, I don't like people making unsupported accusations.  And if I ever fail to post source links for my claims then you may call me a propagandist too.

So, for the third time, where's your link to the "many fake trials" claim?

Don't worry I won't ruin your Saint.

LOL  Liighten up already!!

I'm sorry, but I have to step in here.  I can do one better than a link... but read this for background first (from a chinese site, perhaps as neutral as possible)

http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200110/18/eng20011018_82548.html

This summer I studied at Hebrew University in Jerusalem for my masters in international relations, and I was fortunate enough to study with a member of the British-American security force assigned to guard the Palestinian's accused of Ze'evi's assination (like an ofshoot of TIPH).  Why were American's and Brits watching him?  Because after Arafat's force 17 arrested them, they were used as a bargaining chip to get Israel to withdraw from the Mukhata (during the attack last year).  Essentially, Arafat warned, "Unless you withdraw from Ramalah, we will release these convicted murderers."  In the end, the US and Britain stepped in and offered to "hold them"  (they are outside Yericho now).

And here are some links about other prisoner releases, but I see no reason as to why you should hold this as proof; after all, it's the internet.

Palestinians arrested for deaths of 5 americans in october (about halfway down)

Mostly about Palestinians held in Israeli jails, but segment on the bottom about Arafat

Now obviously you won't find any info on Arafat releasing prisoners on left wing sites like indymedia or The Guardian but just understand that even left wing israeli's like myself can't stand Arafat.  You can certainly draw convincing links between Shamir Lehi and terrorism, and I'm even willing to put up with the argument that Sharon isn't exactly peachy, but Arafat is a currrently active terrorist. He sends his head Fatah deputies to meet with Hamas and Islamic Jihad regularly.  End of story.

EDIT:  Well look at that!  I found a liberal source as well!

Militants are pawns in efforts to free Arafat from Muqata

[Acecombat 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/w_bank_checkpoints/html/default.stm

Introduction

Since the beginning of the three-year Palestinian uprising, or intifada, Israel has significantly increased the number of roadlocks in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in response to rising Palestinian violence.

In September 2003, a group of 20 aid agencies issued a statement calling for the removal of the travel restrictions, which they said were limiting Palestinians' access to schools and medical care, increasing frustration and destroying hopes for peace.

Israel sees the barriers as vital to stop suicide bombers flooding into its cities to terrorise the civilian population.

However, it removed some roadblocks briefly during a three-month ceasefire by Palestinian militants in summer 2003.

The roadblocks range from unguarded earth-and-concrete barriers to complex military checkpoints where documents can be inspected and people and vehicles searched.

Some divide Palestinian-controlled areas from Israeli ones – but others, particularly unguarded barriers, are located in the middle of Palestinian areas.

The structures are now part of everyday life for Palestinians, with thousands having to pass through them daily – for work, social or family visits, or medical treatment.

[Guest]

I have a funny story about roadblocks...

This summer, when Israel restored PA authority to certain cities, I took the oppurtunity to see a old friend in Bethlehem.  I was in the company of two friends, one, a basque journalist with a press card, and the other, a us citizen (muslim too).

As we approached the checkpoint leading into bethlehem, I realized I had forgotten my US passport at home (i have dual citizenship, US p-port is more "powerful.")  I tried to get in with my New Jersey driver's liscense (bad idea) and the soldiers didn't think too highly of it.  My friend's made it through just fine, and I had to catch a cab back into town to grab my passport.  

After a half an hour, I returned to the checkpoint, my friends still waiting, and gave it another try.  As I handed my passport to the soldiers, they recognized me, and decided to have a little fun.  They looked it over, started talking amongst themselves (not knowing I speak Hebrew) and saying there was "no visa stamp"!  I panicked inside - and when one the soldiers put my passport in his pocket and told me to leave - i freaked.  After I had exhausted myself yelling and arguing with them, they took out the passport, looked it over again, and said "oops, here's the visa, sorry" and sent me on my way.    

Ironically neither my Muslim friend (who had egyptian and jordian stamps on his passport) or my Basque friend (who had a gaza stamp!) got any trouble from the border police.

Postscript:  I'm not trying to make light of the checkpoint system in Israel, as it is a very difficult fact of life for Palestinians (and the israeli's who have to man them).  But I figured this thread could use some humor.

[Acecombat 0]

Is everyone dual national these days?

[Acecombat 0]

Child poverty in the Jewish state: How did it happen?

Israel’s National Insurance Institute has just completed its annual study on poverty, and the results are startling. The report finds that almost one-third of Israeli children are growing up poor and that the number of under-privileged families has risen by 31,000 in the past year alone. According to the authors of the study, the Jewish state “is on the way to becoming the country with the highest poverty rate in the Western world.â€

Some will reflexively blame this alarming information on the intifada and note that in both relative and absolute terms, the suffering of Palestinian children is even worse. Such arguments are at least partly correct, but they are also entirely irrelevant. e pertinent issue is how the world’s most prolific recipient of foreign aid (approximately $500 a year for every man, woman and child) has managed to get itself in such a bind. And it is not just Israeli citizens who deserve answers: American taxpayers also have a right to know what has happened to the tens of billions of dollars their government has lavished on the Jewish state.

So where is the money that might have kept more Israeli children from going hungry? Much of it has been used on subsidies to ensure that more Israeli children live in colonies on occupied Arab land. Where are the funds that might have provided better schools and more equitable access thereto? They are locked up in a grotesque wall ostensibly designed to protect Jews but actually situated to oppress Arabs. Where are the resources and activism of a state whose founders fancied themselves socialists? They are monopolized by a military establishment that squanders Israeli energy and creativity as thoughtlessly as it tramples Arabs rights and property.

All peoples in the Middle East have been made poorer by conflict, and not just the current one: The region’s history since 1948 is one of lives wasted and opportunities lost. In essence, a poor child is not “Arab†or “Israeli,†just poor. The Arab world is still talking about the latest issue of the Arab Human Development Report, a devastating indictment of failed governance. Now Israelis have ample fodder to question their own leadership’s priorities. It would be immensely helpful if the key third party in the Middle East, the United States, were also willing to take a closer look at both of these documents. It might then appreciate the pointlessness of its current strategy and try to formulate a more effective one. At the very least, it might demand that some percentage of its aid money be set aside for programs that help children grow up to be healthy adults instead of weapons systems whose only purposes are to destroy and impoverish.

Tsk Tsk ....

[Tex -USMC- 0]

In the future could you please provide a link to the source that you're lifting these articles from? It's awfully difficult to render judgement on highly slanted op-eds that list no sources, have no authors, and apparently have never been published. So, you see how, at the very least, providing the author and the website/media outlet would help out those of us who read and contribute to this thread immensely.

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]So where is the money that might have kept more Israeli children from going hungry? Much of it has been used on subsidies to ensure that more Israeli children live in colonies on occupied Arab land

Um, no.  Most of it goes into defense spending.  Israel spends the highest percent of its GDP (BEFORE aid) on its defense budget.  Secondly, one of Israel's highest sources of revenue, tourism, has almost completely dried up.  Third, these statistics sound heavily skewed.  I will certainly agree that Israel has problems with its social welfare policies, but its no iraq.

Quote[/b] ]All peoples in the Middle East have been made poorer by conflict

Again grossly misinformed...  during ottoman times, calling Palestine a third world country would be an understatement.

Now, the current statistics put Israel as:

21st in the world for total education,

infant mortality rate at 7.37 per 1,000 births (compared to 58.6 in Egypt; who also recieves billions of US $$$),

11th highest in published academic works

and 21st highest in average lifespan.

That doesn't include the countless medical and scientific advances Israel has brought to the world.  They have made much more than just the UZI you know.

Oh, and one more thing, who are the most literate and educated arabs in the middle east?Palestinians

http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

EDIT:  For Americans who make Aliyah (move to Israel), the US lets them keep their US citizenship, even though they will inevitably join another countries armed forces.  So I have one passport I can use to travel the world, and the other to keep Israel from knowing I've done so  

[Bernadotte 0]

Oh, and one more thing, who are the most literate and educated arabs in the middle east?Palestinians

I suppose that would be true if Egypt, Bahrain and Qatar were not in the Middle East.

Still, how would you explain such high levels of enrollment in secondary education by Palestinians?  Is it taxpayer supported like in every other ME country?  You don't suppose the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) has anything to do with it, do you?

(...too busy to post more right now.)

[Guest]

UNWRA has alot to do with it, just disputing the common claim that everything sucked once Israel showed up...

BTW

Palestinian literacy 89.2

Bahrain 88.5

oh wait, I just realized we are using conflicting sources with different years...  While I'm in no position to state which is the truer source, the general point I was making in my post was that the decline of the QOL quotient in the middle east has nothing to do with Zionism (aside from the palestinians).  I apologize if I made it sound as if Palestinians should be thankful for the occupation.

I have more to say, but I must succumb to sweet precious sleep, "the chief nourisher of life's feast"...

[Acecombat 0]

@ Nov. 05 2003,23:05)]In the future could you please provide a link to the source that you're lifting these articles from? It's awfully difficult to render judgement on highly slanted op-eds that list no sources, have no authors, and apparently have never been published. So, you see how, at the very least, providing the author and the website/media outlet would help out those of us who read and contribute to this thread immensely.

Tex its from a Lebanese mags editorial , some guy posted this at a forum but no link because he typed it all up personally.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

At least cite the source, then.

[Acecombat 0]

I'll try and get it for you if i can , though chances are slim.

EDIT :

Go it Daily star

Now rip it apart...

[Acecombat 0]

Another controversial article.

Its a very interesting read though.

Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...

Were they part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA? Neil Mackay investigates

THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: “It’s very good.†Then he corrected himself, adding: “Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans].â€

If Israel’s closest ally felt the collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the world’s only hyperpower and an effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 2001.

It’s not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. She’s insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.

As she gazed at the burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van in her parking lot. Here’s her recollection: “They seemed to be taking a movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didn’t look shocked to me. I thought it was strange.â€

Maria jotted down the van’s registration and called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called Urban Moving.

Police Chief John Schmidig said: “We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down.â€

By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted near New Jersey’s Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at their heads and handcuffed.

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who’d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.â€

His name was Sivan Kurzberg. The other four passengers were Kurzberg’s brother Paul, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI’s Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section – the bureau’s anti-espionage squad.

A warrant was issued for a search of the Urban Moving premises in Weehawken in New Jersey. Boxes of papers and computers were removed. The FBI questioned the firm’s Israeli owner, Dominik Otto Suter, but when agents returned to re-interview him a few days later, he was gone. An employee of Urban Moving said his co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. “I was in tears,†the man said. “These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ‘Now America knows what we go through.’

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis’ names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been “set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamistsâ€.

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

After the owner vanished, the offices of Urban Moving looked as if they’d been closed down in a big hurry. Mobile phones were littered about, the office phones were still connected and the property of at least a dozen clients were stacked up in the warehouse. The owner had cleared out his family home in New Jersey and returned to Israel.

Two weeks after their arrest, the Israelis were still in detention, held on immigration charges. Then a judge ruled that they should be deported. But the CIA scuppered the deal and the five remained in custody for another two months. Some went into solitary confinement, all underwent two polygraph tests and at least one underwent up to seven lie detector sessions before they were eventually deported at the end of November 2001. Paul Kurzberg refused to take a lie detector test for 10 weeks, but then failed it. His lawyer said he was reluctant to take the test as he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

Nevertheless, their lawyer, Ram Horvitz, dismissed the allegations as “stupid and ridiculousâ€. Yet US government sources still maintained that the Israelis were collecting information on the fundraising activities of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Mark Regev, of the Israeli embassy in Washington, would have none of that and he said the allegations were “simply falseâ€. The men themselves claimed they’d read about the World Trade Centre attacks on the internet, couldn’t see it from their office and went to the parking lot for a better view. Their lawyers and the embassy say their ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands died were due to youthful foolishness.

The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.†He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabsâ€, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11â€.

Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.†But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

We are now deep in conspiracy theory territory. But there is more than a little circumstantial evidence to show that Mossad – whose motto is “By way of deception, thou shalt do war†– was spying on Arab extremists in the USA and may have known that September 11 was in the offing, yet decided to withhold vital information from their American counterparts which could have prevented the terror attacks.

Following September 11, 2001, more than 60 Israelis were taken into custody under the Patriot Act and immigration laws. One highly placed investigator told Carl Cameron of Fox News that there were “tie-ins†between the Israelis and September 11; the hint was clearly that they’d gathered intelligence on the planned attacks but kept it to themselves.

The Fox News source refused to give details, saying: “Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.†Fox News is not noted for its condemnation of Israel; it’s a ruggedly patriotic news channel owned by Rupert Murdoch and was President Bush’s main cheerleader in the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.

Another group of around 140 Israelis were detained prior to September 11, 2001, in the USA as part of a widespread investigation into a suspected espionage ring run by Israel inside the USA. Government documents refer to the spy ring as an “organised intelligence-gathering operation†designed to “penetrate government facilitiesâ€. Most of those arrested had served in the Israeli armed forces – but military service is compulsory in Israel. Nevertheless, a number had an intelligence background.

The first glimmerings of an Israeli spying exercise in the USA came to light in spring 2001, when the FBI sent a warning to other federal agencies alerting them to be wary of visitors calling themselves “Israeli art students†and attempting to bypass security at federal buildings in order to sell paintings. A Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) report suggested the Israeli calls “may well be an organised intelligence-gathering activityâ€. Law enforcement documents say that the Israelis “targeted and penetrated military bases†as well as the DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, including secret offices and the unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel.

A number of Israelis questioned by the authorities said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, but Pnina Calpen, a spokeswoman for the Israeli school, did not recognise the names of any Israelis mentioned as studying there in the past 10 years. A federal report into the so-called art students said many had served in intelligence and electronic signal intercept units during their military service.

According to a 61-page report, drafted after an investigation by the DEA and the US immigration service, the Israelis were organised into cells of four to six people. The significance of what the Israelis were doing didn’t emerge until after September 11, 2001, when a report by a French intelligence agency noted “according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cellsâ€.

The report contended that Mossad agents were spying on Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehi, two of leaders of the 9/11 hijack teams. The pair had settled in Hollywood, Florida, along with three other hijackers, after leaving Hamburg – where another Mossad team was operating close by.

Hollywood in Florida is a town of just 25,000 souls. The French intelligence report says the leader of the Mossad cell in Florida rented apartments “right near the apartment of Atta and al-Shehiâ€. More than a third of the Israeli “art students†claimed residence in Florida. Two other Israelis connected to the art ring showed up in Fort Lauderdale. At one time, eight of the hijackers lived just north of the town.

Put together, the facts do appear to indicate that Israel knew that 9/11, or at least a large-scale terror attack, was about to take place on American soil, but did nothing to warn the USA. But that’s not quite true. In August 2001, the Israelis handed over a list of terrorist suspects – on it were the names of four of the September 11 hijackers. Significantly, however, the warning said the terrorists were planning an attack “outside the United Statesâ€.

The Israeli embassy in Washington has dismissed claims about the spying ring as “simply untrueâ€. The same denials have been issued repeatedly by the five Israelis seen high-fiving each other as the World Trade Centre burned in front of them.

Their lawyer, Ram Horwitz, insisted his clients were not intelligence officers. Irit Stoffer, the Israeli foreign minister, said the allegations were “completely untrueâ€. She said the men were arrested because of “visa violationsâ€, adding: “The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11.â€

Jim Margolin, an FBI spokesman in New York, implied that the public would never know the truth, saying: “If we found evidence of unauthorised intelligence operations that would be classified material.†Yet, Israel has long been known, according to US administration sources, for “conducting the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any US allyâ€. Seventeen years ago, Jonathan Pollard, a civilian working for the American Navy, was jailed for life for passing secrets to Israel. At first, Israel claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but the government later took responsibility for his work.

It has always been a long-accepted agreement among allies – such as Britain and America or America and Israel – that neither country will jail a “friendly spy†nor shame the allied country for espionage. Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston’s Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: “It’s a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn’t do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation.â€

What we are left with, then, is fact sullied by innuendo. Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide.

02 November 2003

http://www.sundayherald.com/37707

Sunday Herald

200 Renfield Street

GLASGOW G2 3QB

With source and all ...

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps

Then why write a 1000 word article implying just that?  

Acecombat, what is your warrant here?  What are you implying?  It seems like the same insinuation we've all heard a million times, and I quote former (thankfully) New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka...

Quote[/b] ]Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed

Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers

To stay home that day

Why did Sharon stay away?

The Jewish Zionist conspiracy, under the protocols of the Elders of Zion, are behind the Sep 11 attacks in order to satisfty their imperial urges...

Please don't buy this bullshit.  Check your sources.  Neil Mackay cites no references for these ridiculous claims.  And always examine the warrant.  Do you really think the Israeli government allowed 3000 American citizens (including israelis) to die so that they could step up their occupation?  I want you to answer that question on your own, not by proxy...

P.S. I respect Tex[uSMC]'s efforts to bring some intergrity to these posts, but I must remind everyone that the internet is not exactly a fountain of truth.

[theavonlady 2]

Another controversial article.

Why not read the original report from ABC News, for whom former CIA agent Vince Cannistraro is employed.

Amazing how much an article, speculative to begin with, can be massaged over a year's time for the sake of suiting one's hate wishes.

Same can be said for all the other rubbish you've been posting recently.

[Acecombat 0]

Another controversial article.

Why not read the original report from ABC News, for whom former CIA agent Vince Cannistraro is employed.

Amazing how much an article, speculative to begin with, can be massaged over a year's time for the sake of suiting one's hate wishes.

Same can be said for all the other rubbish you've been posting recently.

Avon will you stop with the 'you believe in what you post' crap already?

What f@%#^ hate wishes , you seem to be mighty good seer if you can see other peoples wishes through internet posts , tell me how do you do that plz so i know what underlying wishes other people have too ?

I posted that article because i read it and FOUND it as an interesting read , yes its pretty controversial but some parts of it are real , and is speculative. For all its worth its as much believeable as one of those Bin Laden videos.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

P.S. I respect Tex[uSMC]'s efforts to bring some intergrity to these posts, but I must remind everyone that the internet is not exactly a fountain of truth.

To be honest, I was more interested in getting a source so I could rip these articles to shreds based solely on association with the slanted pseudo-journalism I know to be behind it. But beyond that, it's simple courtesy to the writer and the outlet- I know I'd be annoyed if things I wrote went uncredited.

[ralphwiggum 6]

if someone is going to post something, make sure

1) source is provided

2) think about the article before posting. jsut because it's 'interesting' doesn't make it worthwhile.

[Bernadotte 0]

What f@%#^ hate wishes , you seem to be mighty good seer if you can see other peoples wishes through internet posts , tell me how do you do that plz so i know what underlying wishes other people have too ?  

I'll tell ya how we do it, Ace.  We simply look for all the bold and underlined sentences that were neither bold nor underlined in the original article you quoted.  Take for example the following line:

But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

Since when did anyone ever need to know about an event ahead of time to document it as it unfolds?  But unfortunately, the absurdity of the author's comment was completely lost on you.  You fell for his hysterical insinuation to the extent that you emblazoned the text in bold and underlined it.  Now, it sure seems to me that your underlying wish in doing so was to spread that hysteria.