The Middle East part 2

[ericz 0]

What would you do if lets say canada one day decided to go and occupy the US. After half a century of occupation, would you want to wait any longer for the peace process.

LOL, Try to use a better example, as THAT could NEVER happen!

python3, you make a good case for showing the deplorable effects that this conflict has had on the average Palentinian man or woman.  And yes you are correct that some of the Israeli commanders have probably used more force than neccessary when combating the terrorists in Palestine.  However, your argument sinks when you call the Israeli Army as a whole a "terrorist entity".  What you fail to understand as do many of our own "enlightened" liberals is that war in any form is violent, destructive and sometime does not discriminate between combatants and civilians; and that is in a conflict between regulars forces.  

In the Palestinian and Israeli conflict, you have irregular forces locked in combat with conventional military.  This is guerrila warfare that in and of itself is should not be considered terrorist.  Where it crosses the line is when these guerrila forces attack civilian targets, then they become terrorists.  A school bus full of civilians is NOT a legitimate target.  On the other hand, these same groups like Hamas etc, utilize civilian buildings to plot, plan as well store weapons and supplies, without regard for the safety of their neighbors.  So when  the IDF comes for them, inevitably innocent or not so innocent (if they knew they were there) get killed and maimed.

If you think that the military and police forces of any country operate or are trained the same way, you are sadly mistaken and probably have never been in the military.  Militaries are historically very poor policemen even those such as MPs are trained differently than  civilian police.

As to even civilian police forces using excessive force it happens in the U.S. on a daily basis.  For an extreme example you have only to look at the case in Waco, Tx.  What probably made this even more disastrous was the fact that the military was involved in "consulting" the  police forces operating there.

I also don't think that ALL Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel, but some do.  You have only to listen to some of the speeches given by even Arafat back in the day.

To Apollo's call for negotiation, I think that essentially his opinion is correct.  Unfortuantely, as I said in my earlier post I find it highly unlikely that talking will solve things.  They have been trying diplomacy for decades and it hasn't worked.  At this stage in the game only actions will help. Stopping attacks on Israelis and moving the settlers back would be real attention getters.

Even that may not help on a micro level.  For Example, (fictional) if the Chinese living in America decided to start a revolutionary communist movement in the U.S.  and after repeated crack downs by American police forces they decided to make statements by blowing up Starbucks cafes and my sister was killed while sipping on a orange mocha frappucino, do you think I would be sympathetic to their cause?  Even if they told me they represent underpaid and exploited Chinese children, that are victims of greedy capitalist American companies.  I woudn't give a f*** about them or their movement.  That one fact that they killed my sister would probably overide everything else.  And if I were part of the police forces or military forces assigned to suppress them do you think I would think twice about putting a round through their heads when they would attempt to resist?  Or do you think that if I felt I were in danger when walking into a suspected hideout, I would ask questions first and shoot later?  GET REAL.

Expand the above exponentially and you'll probably arrive at the same conclusion that I have... talking is not enough.  If the parties involved are serious about peace they need to get hot and start acting like it.  Otherwise, it'll just simmer on.

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]As to even civilian police forces using excessive force it happens in the U.S. on a daily basis. For an extreme example you have only to look at the case in Waco, Tx. What probably made this even more disastrous was the fact that the military was involved in "consulting" the police forces operating there.

fine, but how many waco's happened? I live in NYC buddy. Its not a daily occurance as in the territories.

Quote[/b] ]That one fact that they killed my sister would probably overide everything else.

well, im glad you finally see it from a palestinian perspective . Do u actually think that the parents of lost children and family members could give a rats a$$ about israeli children when they had theirs robbed from them on their way from school by a couple of hellfires.

Quote[/b] ]LOL, Try to use a better example, as THAT could NEVER happen!

it was a long shot

[Crazysheep 1]

Palestine.  However, your argument sinks when you call the Israeli Army as a whole a "terrorist entity".  What you fail to understand as do many of our own "enlightened" liberals is that war in any form is violent, destructive and sometime does not discriminate between combatants and civilians; and that is in a conflict between regulars forces.

Just because it is sometimes like that is not a good enough excuse to do that.

If you were in a fight with someone, (not illegal) and accidentally killed them (illegal) it is not acceptable to say, "Well fights are bad. Shit happens."

The "War's hell" argument is just baseless rhetoric, try telling that to a family of someone who's just been shot for no reason.

[ericz 0]

I live on the West Coast, maybe we just have a lot more whiners

[python3 0]

before i forget....

Quote[/b] ]What you fail to understand as do many of our own "enlightened" liberals is that war in any form is violent, destructive and sometime does not discriminate between combatants and civilians; and that is in a conflict between regulars forces.

i dont fail to understand anything. I know that. This is not a conflict between the israeli army and the syrians in the Glan heights. It is a conflict of an army against terrorists in the most densly populated area of the world. Common sense should prevail that 500 lbs bombs in crowded intersections are recipes for civilian deaths. As i said most of those deaths seem like collective punishment against the palestinians for the actions of the terrorists. In the end, more terrorists are created.

Quote[/b] ]Where it crosses the line is when these guerrila forces attack civilian targets, then they become terrorists. A school bus full of civilians is NOT a legitimate target. On the other hand, these same groups like Hamas etc, utilize civilian buildings to plot, plan as well store weapons and supplies, without regard for the safety of their neighbors. So when the IDF comes for them, inevitably innocent or not so innocent (if they knew they were there) get killed and maimed.

well, i agree. I think they lose all sympathy by killing civilians. I think they should focus on the army. As for the idf, those jdams, lgb's, and anti tank weapons all have seekers on them. They could see the people. Besides those weapons are designed for use against armoured targets in the open, not crowded cities. Anyway, my post was intended as a view from the other side. The palestinians wont care for israeli civilians if they lost their own civilians.

[python3 0]

Palestine.  However, your argument sinks when you call the Israeli Army as a whole a "terrorist entity".  What you fail to understand as do many of our own "enlightened" liberals is that war in any form is violent, destructive and sometime does not discriminate between combatants and civilians; and that is in a conflict between regulars forces.

Just because it is sometimes like that is not a good enough excuse to do that.

If you were in a fight with someone, (not illegal) and accidentally killed them (illegal) it is not acceptable to say, "Well fights are bad. Shit happens."

The "War's hell" argument is just baseless rhetoric, try telling that to a family of someone who's just been shot for no reason.

i agree man, i hate that war is hell trash talk. Yeah, we all know it is, that doesnt make any of it right.

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]to a country that exists only 50 years on the continent and has gained most of it's territory by annexing Palestinian lands

50 years?? Isreal was on that land long before anyone ever called themselves an arab. They were there for thousands of years. Now they have reclaimed thier land.

Quote[/b] ]A sniper is on the roof, what do the israelis do? They take down the building despite the fact that other families, human beings might i remind you, are living their

Are you saying that it better to go ahead and outrightly attack civilians (like the Palestinans do) or attack a militant target (like Isreal does) who willfully place themselves in a place where civilians are in the line of fire?

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]To Apollo's call for negotiation, I think that essentially his opinion is correct. Unfortuantely, as I said in my earlier post I find it highly unlikely that talking will solve things. They have been trying diplomacy for decades and it hasn't worked. At this stage in the game only actions will help. Stopping attacks on Israelis and moving the settlers back would be real attention getters.

I can not understandf that you first agree on my comment's that only diplomacy will yield direct result's in containing (not nessecarily solving) the violece to an extent ,but then state that in this respect only action will help ,it's kinda contradictating.Action should not come bofore negotiation's ,a cease fire could be agreed upon and under conditions that are set to paper.And you can't stop the Palestinian's from terrorist act's by force ,the escelation of the last year(s) has shown that the more Israel try to contain's the violence by force the more violence that grows from it.getting the settlers away from Palestinian ground would help though ,same goes for the checkpoint's ,as these places are on itself the closest target for the Palestinian's.Yasser Arafat will only be able IMO to contain such groups as Hamas once he has the stabilety of a solid Palestinian state ,with it's own police force that can break down on terrorist groups like Hamas.For Arafat ,their would be much less reasons to support Hamas when he has gotten the Palestinian State with decent territory achieved and is reckognized by much of the international community.It would force him to abbide to international law and with such objective's achieved hamas wouldn't be of aid in any way to him.

I understand the implecation's of stating that Hamas is more a Millitia group using vertical warfare on Israel rather than a terrorist group even if they target innocent civilian's.Afterall ,when you argue that these country's are in a state of War like it is my oppinion ,then usage of such method's depend on what enemy youre fighting.It's hard to oppose the strong high tech Israeli army with guerilla warfarefor the Palestinian's ,they don't stand a chance against Israel's regular forces.by targetting Civilian's they are doing something that could be placed under Terrorism ,yet also under Assymetric warfare given the enemy they battle against.And the israeli way of mass destroying Infrastructure could be seen as a form of vertical warfare that tends to a sort of terrorism to.Afterall ,what happens to those fammily's who's houses are destroyed?

Afcourse ,that is an oppinion ,it would be a very tough debate to defend this point of view.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]50 years?? Isreal was on that land long before anyone ever called themselves an arab. They were there for thousands of years. Now they have reclaimed thier land.

point 1: The jewish state ruled for a few century's by Israeli monarch's after the exodus is in now way comparable to Israel.

point 2: It didn't exist thousands of years ,a few century's is more correct ,and that was antique times ,about 5000 years ago.The Arabs live in the erea roughly since 600ad ,for about 1400 years up to NOW. (and that now is most important)

point 3: Going back on territorial claims from 5000 years old is retarted ,by this norm France should get claims on England ,England on America ,Mogolia on China and vice versa ,Iraq on Israel (babylonian (or assyrian) occupation anyone) ,....

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]point 3: Going back on territorial claims from 5000 years old is retarted ,by this norm France should get claims on England ,England on America ,Mogolia on China and vice versa ,Iraq on Israel (babylonian (or assyrian) occupation anyone) ,....

Yea, I know, I'm just trying to say that I belive Isreal should have the land. You ask Why I think that? I believe that they are morally more right than the palestinians. They are just. Maybe I am the only one here that belives that way, but I know for a fact that I am not the only one in the world. Just because I have conservitive views, that doesn't mean I am wrong. If a people are not morally just, then they have no rights to any land.

Picky

[Gollum1 0]

Quote[/b] ]point 3: Going back on territorial claims from 5000 years old is retarted ,by this norm France should get claims on England ,England on America ,Mogolia on China and vice versa ,Iraq on Israel (babylonian (or assyrian) occupation anyone) ,....

Yea, I know, I'm just trying to say that I belive Isreal should have the land.  You ask Why I think that?  I believe that they are morally more right than the palestinians.  They are just.

How so? Would you care to elaborate?

How is a Jewish mother more moral than a Palestinian mother, a Palestinian child worse than a Jewish child?

[EiZei 0]

"They are right & good and those people are wrong & bad. I JUST KNOW IT GODDAMNIT!"

[TexMex Leprechaun 0]

Quote[/b] ]whats so obvious about it? The obvious thing is that israel wants all of the west bank/gaza. The proof: settlement expansion.

You know, I really do not think Israel would mind the people of Plaestien living there, if so many of them were not terrorist, or supported terrorism.

Quote[/b] ]Yep ,made that argument to ,it's more obvious that the israeli don't want peace rather than the Palestinian's. (well maybe apart from the terrorist groups)

Yeah the Israelies do not want peace, you can see them always sending out civilians to kill the innocent. Sure........

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah the Israelies do not want peace, you can see them always sending out civilians to kill the innocent. Sure........

Sorry ,my remark here shouldn't have used the Israeli as people but rather Sharon and the current israeli goverment.

Quote[/b] ]You know, I really do not think Israel would mind the people of Plaestien living there, if so many of them were not terrorist, or supported terrorism.

Well i really think it's not a matter of israeli not wanting palestinians to live in the gaza and West-bank ,rather palestinian's that don't want Jewish living in Gaza or West bank. Afterall it's Palestinian land occupied by israeli.

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]How so? Would you care to elaborate?

How is a Jewish mother more moral than a Palestinian mother, a Palestinian child worse than a Jewish child?

Which one of those mothers would send their child off to blow themselves up under the guise of religion? Which child would do such a thing?

Mr. Picky

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Which one of those mothers would send their child off to blow themselves up under the guise of religion? Which child would do such a thing?

Such rediculous generalization's.In youre context it would mean that ALL Palestinian mother's are forcing ALL their children to commit suicide attacks.This while:

1: Most of the Palestinian mother's don't want their children to do such stuff

2: In relative term's less than 1% of the Palestinian's are commiting terrorist attack's ,and everyone has a mother.

Though it's true that in Palestine children of family's living in poverty ,or definatly refugee's having fled from houses bombed by Israeli forces ,are more prone to join such groups as Hamas due to their situation of poverty ,and generally the low education such children had wich makes indoctrination of radical Muslim belief's easy.

But then ,you will find more criminals in a poor slum of New-York than in Manhatten ,that is afcourse what you define as a criminal.

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ]Which one of those mothers would send their child off to blow themselves up under the guise of religion? Which child would do such a thing

or we could go back to the statistics and see that it is the palestinian children that have most likely lost a father or another family thanks to the israeli army. Maybe they want revenge. Maybe they lost something dear to them and realize that they could be next. It may not be the best thing to do, but go telling someone who has lived in such an environment all their lives. as usual, another baseless argument by someone who has probably never interacted with a single palestinian,

Quote[/b] ]Yeah the Israelies do not want peace, you can see them always sending out civilians to kill the innocent. Sure........

No, but i see them sending their soldiers, tanks etc to go and accomplish that task.

[Gollum1 0]

I'm...speechless. I'm not commenting on Pickaxe's posts anymore. I'm just not. *sigh*

[ericz 0]

"War is hell" is truly a cliche although it happens to be a good description.  If you think that war can be conducted in such a precise manner that would exclude the death of non-combatants, your smoking dope or you are truly ignorant of history or military affairs for that matter.  

I would like to know which one of you, either Apollo or Crazy Sheep of Python3 has ever been in combat?  If you haven't experienced it, then don't sit there on a high horse and pass valueless judgements on those that do?  I certainly dont advocate the killing of innocents wether they are Palestinian, Israeli, Iraqi, American etc.  But having said that I know that it happens and why it happens.

Soldiers die in training scenarios and field excercises by accident or friendly fire incidents all the time.  In the time that I've been in the military, I've witnessed two deaths and heard of three in my regiment alone.  The point is that no matter are best efforts war is by its very nature  a dangerouse endeavour where killing people is the main function.  PEOPLE WILL DIE! Couple that with the human instinct for survival and the protection of your battle buddies which rides above all else in the final anaylsis.

But if you don't believe, join the Army and opt for the Infantry if you can hack it.  Then maybe you'll end up on my  team or that of one my buddies and I'll make sure you get to be #1 or #2 man in the stack when we go clear a room or house.  

Is that piss running down the FNG's boots?  

The major difference between the Palestinian "terrorist" groups and the IDF is that the terrorists consider civilian targets as legitimate and the IDF does not.  The terrorists plot, plan and execute operations that kill Israeli civilians as the primary objective.  The IDF does not.  When civilian casualties occur from IDF operations they are not planned.  While the bottom line is the same meaning, civilians die, the moral upperhand is held by the IDF.

[ericz 0]

Apollo, when I said you were essentially right. I meant exactly that. Essentially diplomacy will be the only way to solve this problem outside of complete annihilation by one over the other IMHO.

I differ from you on the substance of the diplomacy. If the diplomacy is not backed by visible actions i.e. withdrawal of IDF troops, abandoning settler camps, stopping attacks on Israelis, they can talk till their blue in the face and not an effing thing will change.

If Arafat cannot control the terrorist groups then there will be no deal, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. If you give in to the demands of your enemy based on the threat of terrorism youve just accepted that black mailing you is a way to get results.

If Arafat does not have complete control of the situation, then who does? Who ever does needs to step up and become part of the solution and not the problem. Your not going to convince anybody to stop restricting you and making your life hard by blowing up their kids, wives or family members.

On the other hand, IDF actions that reduce people to poverty and despair only serves as recruitment boosters for terrorists as was said in another post.

As I said before there are probably a host of other factors that complicate this scenario. Internal conflicts between the PLO as well as in the Israeli government by hardliners on both sides, power struggles between the various Palestinian groups, history of broken attempts at diplomacy, relgious fundamentalism and hatred on both sides, all serve as obstacles to a peace accord.

Talking without simultaneous action at this point is just HOT AIR.

If this problem can be solved, It will renew my faith in humanity.

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]The terrorists plot, plan and execute operations that kill Israeli civilians as the primary objective. The IDF does not. When civilian casualties occur from IDF operations they are not planned. While the bottom line is the same meaning, civilians die, the moral upperhand is held by the IDF.

Right on!

Quote[/b] ]

Such rediculous generalization's.In youre context it would mean that ALL Palestinian mother's are forcing ALL their children to commit suicide attacks.This while:

1: Most of the Palestinian mother's don't want their children to do such stuff

2: In relative term's less than 1% of the Palestinian's are commiting terrorist attack's ,and everyone has a mother.

Ok, I was generalizing, but what percent of the Israelis are commiting terrorist attacks? Zero! Even if you call the IDF's raids terrorist attacks, youhave to see that they never target civilians. If a terrorist chooses to place his sniper post on top of a building full of his own innocent people, he is only putting thier lives on the line, Israel has no other choice.

Mr. Picky

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ] would like to know which one of you, either Apollo or Crazy Sheep of Python3 has ever been in combat? If you haven't experienced it, then don't sit there on a high horse and pass valueless judgements on those that do? I certainly dont advocate the killing of innocents wether they are Palestinian, Israeli, Iraqi, American etc. But having said that I know that it happens and why it happens.

well, then i invite you to live a day in a palestinians shoe. See how much you'd like it. You are living over here in the US as I, with no clue of just how hard it is to live the life they live. Treating people like animals, will make them treat you just as bad. They are caged people. Go live in one of their cities for a while. Go and endure the hardships of everyday life. It will make you wanna do things you never thought you could do.

Quote[/b] ]PEOPLE WILL DIE

yes thats unfortunate. And u are right there will be civilian casualties. However, there are well over 3000 palestinian civilian casualties, maybe more. This is not 1 or two or even a hundred isolated incidents. We are talking about a lot of people. It is obvious that they are not taking any precautions to limit the number. They use too much force, whihc in the end only incites more hatred in the other side. Do u really think that after losing a family member or friend that you would want to negotiate. as you once put it to me GET REAL .

Quote[/b] ]But if you don't believe, join the Army and opt for the Infantry if you can hack it. Then maybe you'll end up on my team or that of one my buddies and I'll make sure you get to be #1 or #2 man in the stack when we go clear a room or house.

again, we are not talking about a nice patrol. We are talking heavy equipment in crowded areas. tank shells in occupied buildings, lgb's in occuppied buildings. It is too much force and nothing but death and hatred will result.

Quote[/b] ]he terrorists plot, plan and execute operations that kill Israeli civilians as the primary objective. The IDF does not. W

so please explain it to the families of badly injured palestinians that cant get to the nearest town for medical treatment because of a curfew or roadblock. Well it is not palsetinian policy to place those things. hmm... let me see, ah yes it is the policy of the israeli army. You still think they don kill intentionally? Explain that to people who lose a way to make a living thanks to settlement expansion. It may not be a bullet, but it is a way of slowly killing them. A farmer is a farmer, without land, gets no food or money. What is one to do? Wait till he and his family starve? These people are not educated, and their economy has no extra jobs for them, if they lose their way of life, it is over.

Quote[/b] ]Your not going to convince anybody to stop restricting you and making your life hard by blowing up their kids, wives or family members.

no, i agree, but a thirty year occupation wont make new friends on the other side.

Quote[/b] ]but what percent of the Israelis are commiting terrorist attacks? Zero!

well, newsflash: there are settlers who have engaged in violence against palestinians. Not in self defense might i add. Lets not forget the israeli who gunned down around 40 people or whatever the number is, in a mosque in palestine one day. you are seriously misinformed. There are a lot of jewish extremists and terrorists out there.

[ericz 0]

Python3, you sound like a young man who would like to see peace in the region with the Palestinians getting an opportunity for a normal life and I commend you for it.

But there is a big difference between you and me. I dont think your going to do what you have told me I should do, namely, live a day in the life a of a Palestinian in the occupied areas. I on the other have lived for much more than a few days in areas which rival the occupied territories or are worse than them. I have seen what people in extreme circumstances can do.

Your post as well as my own point to the problem I mentioned which is that both sides are too entrenched to make a move.

As to Palestinian civilian casualties, you are just arm chair quarterbacking, as you said you have "no clue". Your not there and you dont know. Whats obvious to someone who's never seen or experienced conflict except in the movies, newspapers or on TV does NOT reflect the reality of what goes on in the hot spot.

BTW, there is nothing nice about a combat patrol... everything else you said, I can respect as your opinion, but on this point, have a little more respect and don't describe something like that without firsthand knowledge, it just discredits you and your arguments.

[python3 0]

man, dont get so hung up on the word nice, obviously there is danger in a patrol. No offense to those who carry them out. My point was that it is not a person running in the room, and shooting the first thing he sees, it is a tank shooting at a building where people live.

First hand knowledge, im arab and ive met a few who have lived their and dealt with the problems. Ive had family who have gotten invlolved in the conflict. They came over here for something better.

i do have a clue, im just saying im not sure what the xact number is. Of course we can know whats happening. Its in the news plus there are people with first hand experience.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]What needs to be done is the relocation of the people of Palestien into an area of their own that is aways from any Isrealie, or better yet be moved into another arab country. Most of you may think this is a horrible, gross thing to do, but the people of Palestien can not control the terrorist, nor do they care to.

Well youre talking A: humanitarian headache to transfer all these people...

Ethnic cleansing or any forced transference of an indigenous population is a crime against humanity.

B: forcing them to give up land that orriginaly were their sphere of influence/control whatever you wanna call it ,to a country that exists only 50 years on the continent and has gained most of it's territory by annexing Palestinian lands.

Don't you mean all of it's territory?  Are you aware of any part of Israel that was not called Palestine, just 56 years ago?