The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

There were no good solutions.  The White Paper probably strayed the least from the Mandate.  Partitioning obviously strayed the furthest.

Nonetheless, you seem convinced that an Arab/Jewish democracy had no future and partitioning was the best option.  

<start sarcasm>

Perhaps you were looking to other fine examples of partioning like that of British India into India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Bangladesh, Burma and Sri Lanka - all icons of peace and tranquillity, huh?  Let's just disregard the 15 million refugees and up to a million deaths through ethnic cleansing; not to mention the ongoing civil wars and nuclear standoff.

At least Palestine didn't end up in some sort of reconciliation process like South Africa.  But just you wait!  Given enough time South Africa might still end up as biculturally unstable as, say, Canada.  At least those poor Palestinians don't have to suffer a lifetime of reading packages labelled in 2 languages.

<end sarcasm>

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]Retired Canadian Major General Lewis Mackenzie was interviewed on CBC radio, and had some very interesting news about the UN observer post hit by Israeli shells; the Canadian peacekeeper killed there had previously emailed Mackenzie telling him that Hizballah was using their post as cover. (Hat tip: Isadore.)

We received emails from him a few days ago, and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position for tactical necessity, not being targeted. Now that’s veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.

Could you tell us where you got these quotes? Because the transcript of Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail says something completely different. Not only does it not say anything about Hezbollah positions ("I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying"), but it details the proximity of Israeli bombardments.

With regard to the Hezbollah flag allegedly flying next to the UN's one - of course it matters if this story is true. The situation would have been quite different if your claim added up. You may try to bagatellise it by saying it wasn't the core of your post, but if the core is proven to be incorrect (or at least sourceless), then the 'supplemental part' of your post suddenly becomes equally important. And equally wrong.

The point remains that this 'incident' is incomprehensible. It's one thing if the IAF bombs the bejeesus out of unmarked lorries, because "they could be used as weapon platforms", but a clearly marked UN post? All UN personnel, assets and buildings are marked as such exactly to prevent this kind of incidents from happening.

Deadmeat, you say that the Israeli JDAM has an error radius of 13-30 m from the target. I think it's fair to assume that the operators are aware of that as well. If you choose a point of impact 10 m from the outpost, there is a reasonable chance that the outpost will be hit! In that case, the responsibility still lies with the Israelis.

Incidentally, Israeli brass has claimed that the incident was due to the fact that the artillery personnel were using outdated maps. How could that matter, if this UN outpost has existed in it's current (well, recent) form since 1978? Surly the Isrealis aren't using maps from before the Yom Kippur War?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We received emails from him a few days ago, and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position for tactical necessity, not being targeted. Now that’s veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.

He never directly says anything like that: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet....0060718

Where does he say that?

And Nemesis 6, hezbollah was created because Israel invaded Lebanon in 82, so they couldn't have been there.

BTW, has Israel used white phoshorous bombs?

Note: Some links from these sites might lead to images of dead poeple so be cautios. (I haven't seen any but in the comments sections there might be some.)

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/25/1442242

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/25/1442232

http://www.gnn.tv/headlin....phorous

He was on a political mission and tried to make a point. Unfortunately he totally exaggerated the letter he had read.

this is the radio interview, in sound

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog....ah&only

Furthermore there Hizzbollah is usually staying away from the posts due to very clear reason. UNIFIL communicates all movements in this border district to the israelis. Yes, that is totally legitimate and a SOP!

[bucket man 2]

It only claims that the photo was taken at a UN post.

That's not how I understood it. Oh well. It doesn't really change anything as it was just a supplemental part of my post. Besides, it still carries the same message.

If there were Hezbollah near the post then where are they now? Are you seriously claiming that hours of artillery fire, apparently airbursts did not harm the alleged Hezbollah fighters that were on the post?

The UN observers were inside and then they were hit with a bunker buster? If that was the case it is clear that the bomb was dropped to destroy the shelter and Hezbollah members cant have acces to these shelters.

They can do whatever they want in the nearby area but they cant get inside and IDF most certainly knows this and has no reasons to asume that the place was occupied by Hezbollah.

Besides the allegation that there were Hezbollah fighters was infact false because the real email did not say that there were Hezbollah fighters near the outpost.

I think its pretty safe to say that the place was not bombed because of Hezbollah. This leaves two options. Intentional bombing or accident (IDF does have a very long list of these "accidents").

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

-sorry deleted, repetitive arguments-

[Warden 0]

It only claims that the photo was taken at a UN post.

That's not how I understood it. Oh well. It doesn't really change anything as it was just a supplemental part of my post. Besides, it still carries the same message.

The Bunker used by the UN had been there for some time, Hezbollah may/probably have used it during the years.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]Boeing delivered the 100,000th JDAM tail kit on December 2, 2004, to the US military since production started in 1998. Initial production was 900 tail kits per year, but as of December 2004 and following 9/11 terrorist attacks, tail kit production boosted and stands at 3,000 units per month. These tail kits provide precision strike capability to Mk 80 series bombs through GPS-aided navigation. To date, the US Air Force has received more than 50,000 JDAMs, the US Navy roughly 37,000 units, and the remaining tail kits (10,000?) were produced for international customers.

Specifications

Ceiling 13,700 m 44,948-ft

Circular Error Probable 3 m 3-yd

Max Range 24,000 m 26,374 yd

or 10 feet 3 meters , it dont matter , the fact remains it was a sad ending.[/edit anyway my own opinion is varied ,U.N shud of pulled them out , israelis should of answered the phone. hezbollah could have been bombed instead. i guess war is war, tragedy happens.

The 3m radius is for the JDAM-PIP variant (with an active terminal seeker) which I believe is only in US service. As far as I know, and according to all the info I could find, the Israeli AF/DF uses the "regular" JDAM. I could be wrong though, clarification from someone more "in the loop" than me would be nice.

Quote[/b] ]and the remaining tail kits (10,000?) were produced for international customers.

.

i was under the impression that ,it wasnt only U.S using these tail kits because of this sentence in my original quote.

israel orders 700 tailits in 1999, so they do use them.

[mp_phonix 0]

The UN outpost was hit by artillary shells, not by laser guided bombs.

[deanosbeano 0]

The UN outpost was hit by artillary shells, not by laser guided bombs.

how did they launch artilery shells from an aeroplane?

[Stealth3 0]

It was hit by both, but the laser guided bombs did the damage. The shells didn't hit directly.

Damages in Lebanon:

Airports

Beirut International

Qaleiat domestic

Rayak military

Ports

Beirut

Tripoli

Jounieh

Other transport

Lighthouse, Beirut

Bridges: 62

Fuel stations: 22

Overpasses: 72

Dams: 3

Roads: 600km

Military

Radar installations: 4

Army barracks: 1

Civilian

Private homes: 5,000

Commercial

Tissue paper factory, Bekaa

Bottle factory, Bekaa

Other businesses: 150

Communications

Hezbollah's al-Manar TV station, Haret Hreik, Beirut

MTC mobile phone antenna, Dahr al-Baidar

Utilities

Jiyeh power plant

Sibline power station

Sewage plant, Dair al-Zahrani

As you see, only 4 targets were military, and even those were Lebanon's military.

Would anybody care to explain me how bombing the lighthouse, bottle factory, tissue factory, sewage plant, and all the other civilian targets, get rid of hezbolah?

Maybe hezbolah was using the lighthouse to send signals to "reinforcements"?

[mattxr 9]

72 overpasses, 62 bridges? they have that many?

and 3 dams? i wana see the afthermath of that .. .. .. [me and water]

anyhoo of that artical above it says

Quote[/b] ]"The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region."

does that mean isael or the hole area?

[Mr_Tea 0]

That complete area is densely populated, on both sides of the border. Even unguided missiles targeted at israel do have a high chance to hit something.

[Bordoy 0]

Did you hear Bush ramble on about Hizbollah today?

The man has clearly lost the plot - if he ever had hold of it in the first place.

There are two sides at fault in the Israel - Lebanon crisis.......but to hear this prat ramble on about Hizbollah this, Syria that, Iran the other, you'd be forgiven for thinking that the Israeli generals ordering the bombings of appartment blocks, schools, UN Observations posts etc have done nothing wrong at all.

He demonised the Arabs to such a ridiculous extent that at one stage I thought he was going to start blaming Darth Vader and Lord Sidious for the conflict!

[Nemesis6 0]

The lefties have the U.N, us righties have George Bush.

[Bordoy 0]

The lefties have the U.N, us righties have George Bush.

Thats silly. I consider myself right wing due to what I believe in politics. Not because a Jewish nation is blowing the crap out of what is now a tin-pot nation.

[Bernadotte 0]

...and 3 dams? i wana see the afthermath of that   .. .. ..

You might be interested in this article written 4 years ago about Lebanon's water project to revitalise 60 villages in the south and hopefully weaken Hezbollah's influence in that poverty-stricken region.  Development experts in Washington applauded the plan.

Guess what Israel said?

Quote[/b] ]But Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has described the project as a causus bellum [cause for war], adding Israel cannot allow the project to proceed.

Israel said it needs the water flowing from those Lebanese springs to maintain freshwater levels in the Sea of Galilee.  Hezbollah threatened to retaliate the moment Israel would try to attack the Lebanese pumping stations.  An Israeli army officer responded to the threats by saying:

Quote[/b] ]"We can't continue to live here if we back down from every challenge that the Hizbullah throws at us," he adds. "It's true that we will suffer heavy casualties from [Hizbullah's] rocket attacks, hundreds if not thousands of civilians may die. But Hizbullah has to take into account that it will cease to exist after they get off a few rounds and nobody will rush to protect them."

...after they get off a few rounds, huh?  

[Garcia 0]

Would anybody care to explain me how bombing the lighthouse, bottle factory, tissue factory, sewage plant, and all the other civilian targets, get rid of hezbolah?

Maybe hezbolah was using the lighthouse to send signals to "reinforcements"?

lighthouse:

Probably they expect Hizbollah guiding boats in using the lighthouse, and that the boats smugle weapons

bottle factory:

Can't let those Hezbollah fighters drink to get their spirit up. In war on terror everything matters...

tissue factory:

Well, who knows

sewage plant:

Ruin the sewage system in Libanon so the streets are full of shit, and Hizbollah gets sick...

all the other civilian targets:

Get rid of civilians takes away possible future Hizbollah men and possible Hizbollah support

[Stealth3 0]

Good one

[Nemesis6 0]

Good one

Not really. It sucked.

7 soldiers wounded in Bint Jbail battle

Quote[/b] ]Seven soldiers were wounded in Friday's fighting in the southern Lebanese town of Bint Jbail, it was revealed on Saturday.

One of the soldiers was wounded moderately, while the other six sustained light wounds.

IDF forces killed 26 Hizbullah operatives on Friday during the intense firefight.

Soldiers operating in the village found and confiscated dozens of guns and rifles, stocks of ammunition, grenades, mines, and five anti-tank missiles.

[martinovic 0]

Nemesis 6 every 2nd post you make is partialy or completely a lie. Go away.

[mattxr 9]

lol  

the took out the tissue factory so they have nothing to clean the mess up with from bombing the sewage plant.

[mp_phonix 0]

Nemesis 6 every 2nd post you make is partialy or completely a lie. Go away.

You saying he is faking that 7 soldiers were injured ? it's true, 8 were killed few days ago.

[Garcia 0]

Damn, big suprise that soldiers, not only civilians, get killed in a war...

[martinovic 0]

Well, I was referring more to his posts that are a bit less researched. Like the one about Hezbollah being all over the UN outpost. I was having a bad day anyways so sorry about that.

edit: waaah, I don't want to drift the thread offtopic... !

[deanosbeano 0]

i would like anyone to voice an opinion on this statement.

Quote[/b] ]Washington has pledged $30 million (16 million pounds) to help Lebanon but America's attitude to the war has angered many Lebanese.

"They send the Israelis smart bombs and they send us blankets. If it was up to me, I wouldn't let this ship dock here. I would dump this stuff in the sea," said a Lebanese soldier watching U.S. relief goods being unloaded in Beirut.

.

i cant get my head around it, i know this war is about israel and the arabs,but how can America feed one side the Bombs to destroy houses of another and send the ones whos houses have been blown up blankets. its so unbelievable, maybe reading other comments can give me some sensical view on it all. ?