The Middle East part 2

[SPQR 0]

This noon, at the TV news, was broadcasted a report about a civilian convoy (easy identification) fleeing the operation zone, accompagnied by journalists. The comment talked about an "israelian" mortar round near-missing the first car (car safe)

But I hardly believe IDF using short range mortars instead of heavy artillery or LG bombs.

I wouldn't be astonished if this "mortar round" (if it is really mortar) was rather a Hezzie one than an IDF one, as the first opponent may probably use more this kind of weapon than IDF : light weapon and media event creating

[Stealth3 0]

Taken from BBC, members of the Lebanon government were able to convince Hezbolah to a conditional ceasefire. Also IDF refused a 3 day cease fire offered by the UN to bring in humanitarian help.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5226996.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/29/mideast.main/index.html

I doubt Israel will accept a conditional ceasefire and I doubt Hezbolah will give up for an unconditional ceasefire.

[Garcia 0]

Israel refused because they say they've opened "corridors" for humanitarian help, though all the organizations brining the help says the so called "corridor" is plain bullshit and that they don't get the help out from Beirut. Why am I not suprised?

Oh, and it seems Israel have trashed yet another outpost and wounded 2 UN observers...

[Stealth3 0]

Breaking news:

For some reason its not on BBC and CNN yet, but I heard on romanian TV.

Israel bombed an offshore powerplant which caused a huge leak of oil (about 35 thousand tons) on the shore of Lebanon.

Thats a major humanitarian crisis as every living thing there is dead and tourism won't recover for a long long time.

[mattxr 9]

Israel refused because they say they've opened "corridors" for humanitarian help, though all the organizations brining the help says the so called "corridor" is plain bullshit and that they don't get the help out from Beirut. Why am I not suprised?

Oh, and it seems Israel have trashed yet another outpost and wounded 2 UN observers...

exactly any vehicle moving into the vacinity will be blown off the map and all the IDF will say is "It was carrying weapons for Hizbullah.

Quote[/b] ]Breaking news:

For some reason its not on BBC and CNN yet, but I heard on romanian TV.  

Israel bombed an offshore powerplant which caused a huge leak of oil (about 35 thousand tons) on the shore of Lebanon.  

Thats a major humanitarian crisis as every living thing there is dead and tourism won't recover for a long long time.

Now thats bad  

and also ..

"An Israeli air strike closes the main Lebanese-Syrian border crossing, as two more UN observers are wounded."

"Missiles hit the road between the two states' immigration posts, but on the Lebanese side, the reports said.

A separate strike wounded two UN monitors in their observation post, the UN said, days after four were killed.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has returned to the region for fresh talks set to focus on bringing in a larger international peace force.

Deployment of the force is expected to be discussed by world leaders at a meeting at the UN headquarters in New York on Monday."

"Ms Rice is expected to talk to both Israeli and Lebanese leaders about the proposals during her visit to the region."

Why does she need to talk to the Lebanese of course they want Humanitarian Assistance there country is now in ruins.. but its the israels who wont let them move in becuse they are still bombing...

and finally..

"But even before the latest UN casualties, the UN had warned that the deaths of the four monitors could deter countries from contributing to the proposed peacekeeping force."

[deanosbeano 0]

Breaking news:

For some reason its not on BBC and CNN yet, but I heard on romanian TV.

Israel bombed an offshore powerplant which caused a huge leak of oil (about 35 thousand tons) on the shore of Lebanon.

Thats a major humanitarian crisis as every living thing there is dead and tourism won't recover for a long long time.

what this oil spill ?

oil spill off lebanon caused by israeli bomb

[mattxr 9]

Its absolutely appalling what the Israel's are doing..

Year right getting rid of terroists is one thing but bringing down a hole country is another..

thats just like if the uk was at war with france and rebel terroist group was firing missles at them it would be like france bombing all Airports/Powerplants and so on the Uk so everyone has to suffer because of these terrioist .. its well crazy, what the hell is the world coming too.

[EiZei 0]

The war nerd offers some of less-than-politically-correct wisdom regarding the israel-lebanon conflict:

http://www.exile.ru/2006-July-28/a_hezbollah_upon_all_of_thee.html

[danowen 0]

I'm not alone in that conclusion either. One of the top US commanders in GW I called the IDF "a bunch of arrogant pricks who wouldn't last ten minutes on a European battlefield.

thats very true.

[Garcia 0]

Well good going ID-fucking-F...apperently Israel bombed a appartmentbuilding, and guess what was in it? Hezbollah? Oh no, 50 people, 34 kids And guess what Israel says. They say they warned them and that they bombed villages because now they expected only Hezbollah to be left. The ones making decisions in IDF must be some of the most bloodthirsty people out there, or they are simply fucking stupid, because it's been said for some time now that at least 50 000 civilians were left in south-lebanon because Israel have fucked up the infrastructure so bad that old, sick and children can't get out. Pffft, they're thinking with their arse. Israel is digging their own grave now, when they're acting like this they're losing more and more support. I just feel sorry for the Israelis that's actually sane enough to see how fucked up Israels actions are...

BBC

[deanosbeano 0]

Well good going ID-fucking-F...apperently Israel bombed a appartmentbuilding, and guess what was in it? Hezbollah? Oh no, 50 people, 34 kids And guess what Israel says. They say they warned them and that they bombed villages because now they expected only Hezbollah to be left. The ones making decisions in IDF must be some of the most bloodthirsty people out there, or they are simply fucking stupid, because it's been said for some time now that at least 50 000 civilians were left in south-lebanon because Israel have fucked up the infrastructure so bad that old, sick and children can't get out. Pffft, they're thinking with their arse. Israel is digging their own grave now, when they're acting like this they're losing more and more support. I just feel sorry for the Israelis that's actually sane enough to see how fucked up Israels actions are...

BBC

Absolutely pathetic.if this is not Genocide what is ?

Its time the U.N was disbanded and some powerful organisation was put in place that didnt need the U.S to sanction all its rulings.it all stinks i have lost faith in humanity (at political level).you cant help but wonder sometimes what makes a person blow themselves up in a crowded room of civilians or fly planes into towers.it could never be justified EVER,but when this happens you begin to understand why man would hate his fellow man so much.But there is a big differnce when a government coldly orders its planes to bomb children,that i could never understand.

[Supah 0]

From CNN: "The building itself was not struck, there is a large crater next to the building. The building collapsed onto its basement Due to a nearby explosion" More a case of Hezbollah yet again moving missile installations into Population centers and near UN posts hoping it will deter IDF attacks. Translated from a dutch newspaper

Quote[/b] ]

In an bunker, while huge explosions are heard outside with great regularity, French UNIFIL-commander Major-General Alain Pellegrinni tells how it has become hard for the UN to do anything in Lebanon.

"The Lebanese government has never tried to send the regular Lebanese army down south. That is the great reason for this war. Hezbollah was allowed to run out of control, it can do as they choose here."

The general has little positive things to say about Hezbollah. "They place their rocket installations closer and closer to population centers. They place their Katjoesja's in between houses and near UN posts hoping that the Israeli's won't bomb them. But Israel doesn't really take much notice of it."

For a moment there is a short pause that is suddenly disturbed by another explosion. "If we had had a more active mandate" Says General Pellegrini, "Then we could have done something against the Hezbollah fighters who fire their missiles from meters outside our front gate. Now we can do nothing."

Who do you think know's best? A UN commander on the ground or the likes of Koffi Annan?

another telling article from yahoo

Quote[/b] ]Guns in the Closet

At home in a town in southern Lebanon, a Hezbollah fighter waits to be called to action.

By Kevin Sites, Fri Jul 28, 8:23 PM ETEmail Story IM Story

SOUTHERN LEBANON - Plumes of black smoke begin to fan out over the coastline in the distance. We ask someone in town what has happened. He tells us it's the power plant; the Israelis have struck it with a missile. But it's impossible to confirm because the roads leading to it were bombed early in the offensive.

In fact, Lebanon's main north-south road is so pocked with bomb craters, blown-out bridges and blasted highway spans that there is only one route left for drivers headed into Beirut.

Twisted cars and wreckage litter the roadside. Craters, some as wide as 60 feet, have filled with water and become small lakes.

Hezbollah fighter reveals the weaponry inside his house» View

It is in this unfortunate but familiar reality for Lebanon that the new landscape is being formed — deepening current loyalties rather than shifting them.

Nowhere is that more clear than in the area I am traveling today, a Hezbollah stronghold north of the city of Tyre. Here, I am told, few families have fled. Instead, they are waiting for the call of Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah to come south to fight the Israelis.

And there do seem to be more people on the streets and more families still in their homes, compared with areas further south, where so many have joined white flag convoys fleeing the fighting — as well as the uncertainty of where this conflict may lead.

It's not a difficult or even particularly mysterious undertaking to meet members of Hezbollah. Politically, they are part of the current Lebanese government and have been highly visible throughout the country, particularly for the millions of Shias in Lebanon. But it is Hezbollah's militia with which Israel says it is at war.

In the Mideast, many credit Hezbollah's militia with inflicting heavy losses on the Israeli Army and forcing Israel to withdraw from Lebanon in 2000. In the West, the group is widely condemned as a terrorist organization, supported by Syria and Iran. It has been responsible for numerous attacks on Israel, including the incident the sparked the latest conflict, as well as the bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983, which left 241 servicemen dead.

Even its critics concede that Hezbollah is well-organized politically and highly disciplined militarily, and the two are woven together through common religious, cultural and social threads.

"They are an integral part of the fabric of Shia society here," a source with an intimate knowledge of Hezbollah who did not want to be identified told me. "It's a fallacy to think they can be cleaned out or eliminated."

I'm asked if I want to meet a Hezbollah fighter in his village and speak with him briefly.

We meet "Hussein" at his home and sit down to talk in his living room, while his four-month-old baby daughter lies on a blanket on the floor. He is in his late 20s and has a calm face. He is polite but has a resolute sense about him that creates a cautious distance. Like many fighters, he says, he has another job and only joins the militia when he's needed.

But even though he's not on the front lines now, he says there is still a lot of work to do in the village — like looking for Israeli spies.

"We caught someone last night, he says, "sneaking around in the middle of the night."

I ask him how he knew the person was an Israeli agent.

A Hezbollah fighter's weapons stash

"He had two Lebanese passports," he says, "with the same picture but different names, and when we asked him a simple question he gave us a confusing answer."

"What do you do with 'spies' after you catch them?" I ask.

"We question them for a while," he says, "then turn them over to the (Lebanese) army."

As for the fighting in the south, he says it's not necessary for him to leave yet.

"I have a job to do and if the Israelis want to come inside," he says, "then we'll do our job and defend our families."

He shows me what he will use to defend them. In a closet in an adjoining bedroom he reaches into the top shelf and pulls out a green shoulder harness full of ammunition clips.

Then, from the corner of the closet, next to some shirts on hangers, he pulls out an American-made M-16 assault rifle and places it on the mattress in the room next to the ammo belt. He goes back to the closet and from the same corner reaches for a rocket-propelled grenade launcher and two canvas shoulder bags. He places these on the bed as well.

I ask if nearly every house in the neighborhood has a stash of small arms like this.

"Some have more," he says, pulling an AK-47 from one of the canvas bags and locking on a 30 round banana clip, named for its banana-like curve. "But the larger weaponry is kept somewhere else."

Not in the houses, he says later, but in secret places.

"Where does the M-16 come from?" I ask.

He says that Hezbollah buys all the weapons, sometimes even from the Lebanese Army.

He then pulls a grenade from the closet, screws on a cylinder of propellant behind it and then loads it into the grenade launcher. He shows me what has to be done before the trigger can be pulled to shoot it.

"Have you ever fired one of those?" I ask.

He smiles as if it were an obvious question. Yes, of course, he replies.

He then puts all the weapons back on the bed for a moment so I can photograph them. Although it's not uncommon for households in the Middle East to have at least an AK-47 around the house, it's incongruous to see the three rifles and grenade launcher beside a baby's bassinet.

Just as quickly as he pulled them out, he puts the weapons back in the closet and we are done. But neither he, nor the rest of the neighborhood, knows for sure how long the weapons will stay there.

but ofcourse when this idiot opens fire on IDF troops or draws the attention of a IDF airstrike and the baby and his wife end up dead its the "evil zionists" fault?

[deanosbeano 0]

well it was bombed , heres the idf explaining whatthey did and why.

all this there was rockets is not good enough.they dropped leaflets telling them to leave and then bombed the roads and bridges to stop them leaving. it stinks .

Quote[/b] ]JERUSALEM, July 30 (Reuters) - Israel's army was unaware civilians were sheltering in a building in the southern Lebanese village of Qana that was heavily bombed on Sunday, the military chief said.

"We did not know of the whereabouts of civilians in the village," Lieutenant-General Dan Halutz was quoted by the NRG Maariv Web site as telling President Moshe Katsav.

source

[Supah 0]

well it was bombed , heres the idf explaining whatthey did and why.

all this there was rockets is not good enough.they dropped leaflets telling them to leave and then bombed the roads and bridges to stop them leaving. it stinks .

Quote[/b] ]JERUSALEM, July 30 (Reuters) - Israel's army was unaware civilians were sheltering in a building in the southern Lebanese village of Qana that was heavily bombed on Sunday, the military chief said.

"We did not know of the whereabouts of civilians in the village," Lieutenant-General Dan Halutz was quoted by the NRG Maariv Web site as telling President Moshe Katsav.

source

It was not bombed, a object near it was bombed. The building wasn't very sturdy and collapsed. the IDF did not bomb the building itself. I hear the local people on CNN saying "We offered to take them out to safety but they were poor" I.E. They couldn't pay what we wanted to take them to safety so we left them to take care of themselves. Real good samitarians those guys. If you can't get out of the south then why is beirout and Damascus too being innudated by refugees from there? If Hezbollah hadn't overplayed its hand badly the Libanese people could still have been living in safety and growing prosperity. Hezbollah robbed them of that chance. I hope their proud of themselves. The Lebanese goverment should have made more efforts to keep up their part of resolution 1559 and disarm Hezbollah. But apparently they made no effort what so ever to do this. Israel in its part did keep up its part of the bargain by withdrawing from southern lebanon.

[Garcia 0]

but ofcourse when this idiot opens fire on IDF troops or draws the attention of a IDF airstrike and the baby and his wife end up dead its the "evil zionists" fault?

They've got the right to defend themself, but they don't got the right to blow up a crowd of civilans just to get a terrorist or two. Israel claim to be a modern democratic state, and therefor demands to be treated as one, but at the same time they expect to be allowed to lower themself to the terrorists level by fighting the opposite side by killing lots of civilians and a few terrorists. Actually, they're worse than the terrorists, because according to what I've read, most of the Israeli losses are military personel, while most of the kills by Israel is civilians. When they claim to be a modern democratic state, and when they demand to be treated as one, it is their fucking duty to behave like one. And when they have to behave like one, it's their responebility to make sure that they manage to take out the terrorist leader or the rocket launcher without killing dozens of innocent civilians and laying half the city in ruins.

Would you be happy if the guy next door was a Hizbollah man and made rockets for Hizbollah, and then Israel came flying by smashing his house and the house you live in, killing your family and 50 other innocent people? Or is it your fault because you happened to live next door to some guy who did bad things in his cellar?

And just to give an example of how shitty job IDF does when finding targets. Yesterday I saw on the news where they interviewed a owner of a storage for pipes or something. His storage was bombed to shit because IDF though the pipes were rockets...

[martinovic 0]

Well, you can say whatever you want... support for Hezbollah is on the rise, in Lebanon and elsewhere.

[deanosbeano 0]

Quote[/b] ]It was not bombed, a object near it was bombed. The building wasn't very sturdy and collapsed. the IDF did not bomb the building itself.

well i keep looking but the Idf says they bombed it and so does everyone else.

CNN

everyone else

btw supah pls can you provide a source for your peligrini quotes.

i searched but could only find him saying that he was the one who phoned the idf to stop bombing thee outpost.

[Supah 0]

but ofcourse when this idiot opens fire on IDF troops or draws the attention of a IDF airstrike and the baby and his wife end up dead its the "evil zionists" fault?

They've got the right to defend themself, but they don't got the right to blow up a crowd of civilans just to get a terrorist or two. Israel claim to be a modern democratic state, and therefor demands to be treated as one, but at the same time they expect to be allowed to lower themself to the terrorists level by fighting the opposite side by killing lots of civilians and a few terrorists. Actually, they're worse than the terrorists, because according to what I've read, most of the Israeli losses are military personel, while most of the kills by Israel is civilians. When they claim to be a modern democratic state, and when they demand to be treated as one, it is their fucking duty to behave like one. And when they have to behave like one, it's their responebility to make sure that they manage to take out the terrorist leader or the rocket launcher without killing dozens of innocent civilians and laying half the city in ruins.

Would you be happy if the guy next door was a Hizbollah man and made rockets for Hizbollah, and then Israel came flying by smashing his house and the house you live in, killing your family and 50 other innocent people? Or is it your fault because you happened to live next door to some guy who did bad things in his cellar?

And just to give an example of how shitty job IDF does when finding targets. Yesterday I saw on the news where they interviewed a owner of a storage for pipes or something. His storage was bombed to shit because IDF though the pipes were rockets...

This is not about Lebanon's right to self defence. This is about Hezbollah's claimed right to lob missiles into Israel and invade Israel's territory to kill and abduct IDF military personel. This is about the Lebanese government failing to disarm the terrorist organisation Hezbollah which they are compelled to do under UN resolution 1559. Israel kept its part of the deal by withdrawing from south Lebanon. Israel has been the victim of terror attacks purposefully aimed at civilians for years. This has lead to an attitude of "better their civilians dead then our civilians dead" when it comes to killing terrorists that are hiding amongst civilian population on purpose.

The reason there are more duty personel dying on the Israeli side then civilians is because the IDF just took the fight to the Hezbollah and the IDF doesn't use it's citizens as human shields by hiding Military assets in or near population centers. That's why Israel is a modern democracy and Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation.

If I found out the guy next door to me was making rockets for Hezbollah I'd move or make sure he had a unfortunate accident. Since when is it ok or acceptable to hide an arms factory in a residential structure? Israel is not to blame for attacking Hezbollah's infrastructure for terror, Hezbollah is to blame for using the civilian population as a shield in hiding these facilities in residential area's.

Have you ever tried to differentiate tubes from missiles on intell pictures? I did when I was in the airforce training program. its almost impossible. especially as smaller missiles are often stored in tubular containers.

[Supah 0]

Quote[/b] ]It was not bombed, a object near it was bombed. The building wasn't very sturdy and collapsed. the IDF did not bomb the building itself.

well i keep looking but the Idf says they bombed it and so does everyone else.

CNN

everyone else

btw supah pls can you provide a source for your peligrini quotes.

i searched but could only find him saying that he was the one who phoned the idf to stop bombing thee outpost.

Leeuwarder Courant Friday July the 28th 2006 page 5. It's a dutch article but I wouldn't mind scanning it for you and putting it online so you can have it verified by a dutch reader.

The reporter on the scene clearly stated that the building itself was not hit by the bomb but succombed to structural failure after a bomb exploded near it. I too heard to anchor talking over it quickly, perhaps she didn't pick up on it perhaps she didn't want to pick up on it.

Edit:

Here you have examples of this Hezbollah  behaviour of using civilian structures as shields on film.

Movie

Still want to deny their doing it?

Edit 2:

The Article in question. Feel free to have verified by a dutch person that the last two paragraphs indeed say:

Quote[/b] ]In an bunker, while huge explosions are heard outside with great regularity, French UNIFIL-commander Major-General Alain Pellegrinni tells how it has become hard for the UN to do anything in Lebanon.

"The Lebanese government has never tried to send the regular Lebanese army down south. That is the great reason for this war. Hezbollah was allowed to run out of control, it can do as they choose here."

The general has little positive things to say about Hezbollah. "They place their rocket installations closer and closer to population centers. They place their Katjoesja's in between houses and near UN posts hoping that the Israeli's won't bomb them. But Israel doesn't really take much notice of it."

For a moment there is a short pause that is suddenly disturbed by another explosion. "If we had had a more active mandate" Says General Pellegrini, "Then we could have done something against the Hezbollah fighters who fire their missiles from meters outside our front gate. Now we can do nothing."

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]Qana was the site of an Israeli bombing of a UN base in 1996 that killed more than 100 people sheltering there during Israel's "Grapes of Wrath" offensive, which was also aimed at destroying Hezbollah.

This part is especially ironic... Really, how can you expect people to leave if you annihilate the infrastructure in the first place?

I would like to make use of this occasion to present you with an editorial from The Economist. Over the years, I have found The Economist to be a very even-handed magazine. Often, I do not agree with the opinions presented on it's pages, but the articles are always well-written and supported by sound arguments. The following article is an editorial, i.e. it represents the opinion of the editors. I foud their analysis to be very unapologetic and insightful.

Quote[/b] ]

Why this war is likely to be long, unless America tries harder to shorten it

WHEN the war ends, and if he survives it, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah will probably think twice next time he is inclined to send his fighters across the border to attack Israel. But that does not mean he will not send them, for Israel has so far failed in its efforts to crush Hizbullah in Lebanon.

Israel's air force has pounded every corner of that wretched country, killing hundreds of civilians and putting hundreds of thousands to flight, for more than two weeks. Yet this has not stopped Hizbullah from sending about 100 rockets a day in the opposite direction. All of Israel's efforts so far to kill Mr Nasrallah have failed as well. And so, of course, have its attempts to force Lebanon's government to take him on itself. If the mighty Israelis are not capable of defeating the Arabs' new Saladin, why should one of the region's most feeble and divided governments dare to try?

They have a plan

That simple military logic explains the paralysis that afflicted the would-be peacemakers in Rome on July 26th (see article). America and Israel want to end this war in a way that transforms the balance of power in the Levant. It is an appetising prospect. If Hizbullah's state-within-a-state can be dismantled, Lebanon's elected government could consolidate its independence from Syria and Iran and stabilise its border with Israel. The humbling of Hizbullah would curb the growing regional influence of Iran and send a sobering message to those Palestinians who have been inspired by Hizbullah to try to liberate the West Bank by violence rather than negotiation. Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt would also be gratified by the clipping of Iranian wings, though they dare not say so openly.

It is because America wants to end the war this way that there was no call from Rome for an immediate, unconditional ceasefire. Condoleezza Rice, America's secretary of state, said that the previous arrangement should not be the basis for a lasting ceasefire. Before this war, Hizbullah was in control of Israel's border with Lebanon, and could provoke a clash at any time. The new idea agreed in Rome was to raise a United Nations force in order to help Lebanon's government assert its authority and disarm Hizbullah, in accordance with Security Council Resolution 1559 of 2004.

But raising such a force will take time. And even when it comes into being the Lebanese government is not going to be eager to impose its will on Hizbullah by force. Only if Israel clobbers Hizbullah hard enough might Mr Nasrallah be in the market for some face-saving way to give the plan his blessing. But so far the war seems to be going well for him. The thousands of rockets he has fired at Israel have not yet killed many Israeli civilians, but they have brought normal life in much of Israel to a halt. On the ground his fighters have given Israel's war machine a jolt. With Muslims far and wide cheering him on, he may be in no mood to stop.

If Hizbullah does not want to stop the war, can Israel? Ehud Olmert, Israel's inexperienced new prime minister, is discovering the old truism that wars are easier to begin than to end. Most Israelis fully understood and supported his reasons for treating Hizbullah's cross-border attack of July 12th as an act of war. Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago but Hizbullah, like its Iranian sponsor, claims to seek Israel's complete destruction and seizes every pretext to fight on. Although Israelis are prepared to endure hardships to remove this mortal enemy, they have spent more than two weeks under fire with little to show for it. So Mr Olmert must choose between pressing bloodily on or suing for peace without having achieved his declared aim of destroying Hizbullah's military power.

The chances are the war will continue until Mr Olmert can point to some sort of achievement. Removing Hizbullah from the border would at least be that. Many Israelis would regard anything less as more than a humiliation. Climbing down would make Israel look weak both to Hizbullah and to other foes who need to be deterred, such as Hamas today and, possibly, a nuclear-armed Iran tomorrow. For that reason, for his own political survival and because the United States is still giving him time, Mr Olmert is likely to fight on. He may be consoled by the thought that Israel has not yet called up more than a fraction of its army, and that in past wars that started badly, notably the one in 1973, Israel has still gone on to win.

Such a calculation may or may not make sense for Israel. But it is not the right strategy for America. A war that neither side dares to lose and both believe it can win is a perilous thing. Apart from prolonging the killing, it risks escalating and spreading. How long before Syria and Iran try to restock Mr Nasrallah's arsenal and Israel tries to stop them? Even the pro-American Saudis are finding it hard to sit on the sidelines while the hated Zionists knock the stuffing out of Lebanon. Besides, whatever strategic advantage America stands to gain in Lebanon by giving Israel time to win is liable to be cancelled out by the corresponding drubbing America will receive in public opinion everywhere else in the Arab world, not least in Iraq. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular new fight, America's perceived partiality to Israel is a gaping hole in its policy in the Middle East. It should avoid widening it.

Call a stop now, without conditions

The right thing for America is to call for an immediate stop to the fighting, postponing its plans for the reordering of Lebanon until the period after the guns fall silent. This may not lead soon, or ever, to the disarming of Hizbullah, which means that Lebanon will remain unstable and Israel will still feel threatened. Nor would such an ending deal the desired blow to Hamas and Iran, which will continue to work against a negotiated Israeli peace with Palestine. But the truth is that Israel's military campaign shows little sign of being able to achieve these goals either. And it is just possible that once this pointless war is over Hizbullah will come under growing political pressure within Lebanon to avoid provoking another. Mr Nasrallah may of course feel strong enough to ignore a call for an immediate ceasefire. The war would go on. But then at least it would be plain who was to blame for the misery.

[Ase290406 0]

Hey let's compare: In 1999 NATO had an air campgain in Kosovo during which a hospital, a market and the Chinese embbassy in Belgrade the capital of Serbia were hit. In Iraq there is violence every day. And so on.. The point is that in every conflict no matter what Israel or other countries do, civilians will die. Because even the most precise bomb has a blast radius. And if we don't use bombs than Hizzballa will fire more rockets at us and our civilians will die. We don't have much choise here. That's why we want to adress the root of the problem and that is Hizzballa. If Hizzballa stays at power this will happen all over again in a few years/months and in much more massive way. Which mean more civilians dead. We are making sure it won't happen again. Hence you have the massive air campgain.

[deanosbeano 0]

i dont think anyone is denying what hezbolah are doing nor supporting it, after all it is a terror organisation, the question i was asking and others ,is why is israel killing so many children with smart bombs.

the reason i asked about your source for pelligrini , was because i saw he had said that there was some hezbollah activity 300 meters outside the gates of a un observer post on the hill, and that once they fired , a barrage of israeli shells came back. but when i read your quote it said some meters outside . and i wondered if they was closer.

ty for the scan ,i can read dutch and do not need a translator.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]This is not about Lebanon's right to self defence.

I meant Israel got the right to defend themself.

Quote[/b] ]This is about the Lebanese government failing to disarm the terrorist organisation Hezbollah which they are compelled to do under UN resolution 1559. Israel kept its part of the deal by withdrawing from south Lebanon.

Israel have failed to follow several other UN resolutions. It's a fucking disaster when Lebanon does't follow the resolution, but when Israel doesn't...

Quote[/b] ]Israel has been the victim of terror attacks purposefully aimed at civilians for years. This has lead to an attitude of "better their civilians dead then our civilians dead" when it comes to killing terrorists that are hiding amongst civilian population on purpose.

It doesn't matter how many losses Israel have taken up through the years, it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to kill civilians and that Israel seems to not care too much if they kill civilians.

Quote[/b] ]The reason there are more duty personel dying on the Israeli side then civilians is because the IDF just took the fight to the Hezbollah and the IDF doesn't use it's citizens as human shields by hiding Military assets in or near population centers.

I was aiming more at the Hizbollah rockets aimed at civilian targets.

Quote[/b] ]That's why Israel is a modern democracy and Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation.

And the fact that Israel have targeted ambulances, civilians and civilian infrastructure and all the other shit they've done makes Israel a terrorist state.

Quote[/b] ]If I found out the guy next door to me was making rockets for Hezbollah I'd move or make sure he had a unfortunate accident. Since when is it ok or acceptable to hide an arms factory in a residential structure?

And what if you were, like many lebanese civilians is, not in a position were you can move or make sure the guy had a unfortunate accident? Like say, if Israel had bombed the infrastructure so bad that you were as likely to die if you tried moving as if you stayed, and that if you tried coming close to the bad guy and hurt him, you would be the one who ended up dead...

Quote[/b] ]Israel is not to blame for attacking Hezbollah's infrastructure for terror, Hezbollah is to blame for using the civilian population as a shield in hiding these facilities in residential area's.

If Israel did attack only Hizbollah infrastructure it would be ok, problem is they don't. And yes, Hizbollah is to be blamed for using civilians as a shield, but Israel is to be blamed as much for fireing on the shield. When they don't know wether or not they are targeting a position with only terrorists or a position with terrorists and civilians, or even a position with only civilians, they are sinking as low as the terrorists. When you shoot blind at a possible civilians, it's as bad as seeing the civilians, and still shoot.

Quote[/b] ]Have you ever tried to differentiate tubes from missiles on intell pictures? I did when I was in the airforce training program. its almost impossible. especially as smaller missiles are often stored in tubular containers.

No I haven't, and I'm sure it's hard. But it's Israels responibility, as the so called democratic state that they are, to don't do mistakes like that. When they target something that doesn't have shit to do with terrorists, it's their fault and they are to blame. They did a shitty job, and it's their responsibility to not do that kind of mistakes.

[Supah 0]

the question i was asking and others ,is why is israel killing so many children with smart bombs.

Because the Hezbollah Missile installations are routinely and purposefully being hidding amongst these children and other civilians. A smart bomb isnt a weapon impervious to malfunctions and sudden wind changes nor does it only kill the target its aimed at. It still has a quite large blast radius and shrapnell will fly for hundreds if not thousands of feet. There are programs trying to develop Smart weapons with smaller warheads or with no explosive warhead what so ever, merely working by kenetic energy. No serious peace proposal will be accepted as long as it does not adresses Israel's safety concerns in a serious and worthwhile manner. Hezbollah must be transformed into a purely political organisation or I don't see how Israel can be honestly expected to compromise.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]The point is that in every conflict no matter what Israel or other countries do, civilians will die.

Problem is that Israel kills more civilians than anyone else, and they seem to kill more civilians than terrorists.

Quote[/b] ]That's why we want to adress the root of the problem and that is Hizzballa. If Hizzballa stays at power this will happen all over again in a few years/months and in much more massive way. Which mean more civilians dead. We are making sure it won't happen again. Hence you have the massive air campgain.

And the problem with this is that Israel won't be able to "destroy" Hizbollah. Only way to get rid of a terrorists organization is getting rid of everyone supporting the organization. If you try bombing the supporters of the organization in the way Israel does, you end up killing more civilians than terrorists, and therefor feeding the organization with new support, as the relatives of the civilians get angry. If you really want to weaken a terrorist organization, you have to take out it's people without killing shitloads of civilians. That way you don't generate as much new support for the organization, and it gets weaker. At least that's what I think. Though I know for sure that Israels way of weakening Hizbollah is bullshit. They may weaken Hizbollah for now and a couple of years, but in the future Hizbollah will come back, and they will possibly be stronger than now. Israel could have prevented Hizbollah being strong in the future by taking out Hizbollah equipment and people without killing the amount of civilians they've killed.