The Middle East part 2

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Don't bother, Garcia... b_ringer25 didn't realise yet that, according to his analogy, Shaq is getting punched nonstop, whilst all Shaq's bat is doing is hitting everything in the kid's father's store, but the kid is too agile for Shaq to hit him with the big bat...

[Necromancer- 0]

If the Hesbollah is not a terrorist group, than they are the private army of warlord Nasralla. They build schools and hospitals, so what.

Millions of dollars was pumped into Hesbollah every month, it was easy for them to do "good". Somehow you have to pull the majority of people on youre side. Remember, a suicide bomber can only make one strike.

When you look at theire goals, and read theire statements there is no doubt left, that they are terrorists.

Hezbollah builds schools (of which you only learn the Qu'ran and that blowing up Jews is good) and hospitals etc.. so that they win the hearts and minds of the local people and have more recruits for themselves.

[Bernadotte 0]

Prediction:  In years to come, Hizbollah will develop its own more powerful version of the Katyusha rocket and name it the Qana II, after the second massacre to hit that village in a decade.

From an interview with an IDF commander:

Quote[/b] ]“Even if you’ll prove to me by mathematical means that the present war in Lebanon is a dirty immoral war, I don’t care. Moreover, even if you will prove to me that we have not achieved and will not achieve any of our aims in Lebanon, that we will neither create a friendly regime in Lebanon nor destroy the Syrians or even the PLO, even then I don’t care. It was still worth it. Even if Galilee is shelled again by Katyushas in a year’s time, I don’t really care. We shall start another war, kill and destroy more and more, until they will have had enough. And do you know why it is all worth it? Because it seems that this war has made us more unpopular among the so-called civilised world.â€

“Let me tell me [sic] what is the most important thing, the sweetest fruit of the war in Lebanon: It is that now they don’t just hate Israel. Thanks to us, they now also hate all those Feinschmecker Jews in Paris, London, New York, Frankfurt and Montreal, in all their holes. At last they hate all these nice Yids, who say they are different from us, that they are not Israeli thugs, that they are different Jews, clean and decent."

"Soon their palaces will be smeared with the slogan: Yids, go to Palestine! And you know what? They will go to Palestine because they will have no other choice! All this is a bonus we received from the Lebanese war. Tell me, wasn’t it worth it? Soon we will hit on good times. The Jews will start arriving, the Israelis will stop emigrating and those who already emigrated will return."

"So I am glad that this small war in Lebanon frightened the Yids. Let them be afraid, let them suffer. They should hurry home before it gets really dark."

"And you can write that I am disgrace to humanity, I don’t mind, on the contrary. Let’s make a deal: I will do all I can to expel the Arabs from here, I will do all I can to increase anti-Semitism, and you will write poems and essays about the misery of the Arabs and be prepared to absorb the Yids I will force to flee to this country and teach them to be a light unto the gentiles. How about it?â€

This interview with an IDF general was originally published by the Israeli paper Davar in December 17, 1982, as part of a series of interviews with outspoken Israelis by writer Amos Oz.  Btw, the identity of the interviewee remains secret and Amos Oz has denied that it was Ariel Sharon.

[mp_phonix 0]

I guess some interview with a general from 1982 who probably allready retaierd is very relevent to the war now, 24 years later

[EiZei 0]

I guess some interview with a general from 1982 who probably allready retaierd is very relevent to the war now, 24 years later  

The 1982 conflict is not relevant?

[mp_phonix 0]

I guess some interview with a general from 1982 who probably allready retaierd is very relevent to the war now, 24 years later  

The 1982 conflict is not relevant?

to my opinion, not anymore.

it was relevant 6 years ago when we were still in Lebanon.

Hizballah was formed to drive the Israelis out of Lebanob. Let's say they did because we retreated in the year 2000, all they do now is claiming that they fight for the Sheba farms that they claim to belong to Lebanon, although the U.N says it belongs to Syria.

[Bernadotte 0]

I guess some interview with a general from 1982 who probably allready retaierd is very relevent to the war now, 24 years later  

Is it just you or are all Israelis taught to say the complete opposite of what they mean? That would certainly explain much of what the IDF have been telling us lately about not deliberately targetting civilians.

[Bordoy 0]

So that's 750 Lebanese, mainly civilians, killed in Lebanon, and 51 Israelis, only 18 of which were civilians.

54 Lebanese killed in one strike by the Israelis, more than all the Israelis put together.

Nearly 750 civilians killed in Lebanon vs 18 (out of 51) in Israel.

Who are the terrorists? Who are REALLY targetting armed forces, and who are targetting just anyone?

I'm seriously fucked that the government that represents me is sitting back and watching this terrorism go on. I'll get slated for saying this but the Iranians were right, Israel should be wiped off the planet.

[Guest Ti0n3r]

Sorry for this 'dumb' question... But what's the fu**** point in bombing if all you hit is civilians, UN observers and Lebanese soldiers? I don't think I've heard of more than one or two 'successful' airstrikes since this IDF/Hezbollah shit started...

This has really made me lose all my faith in the IDF. Now they're the same as Hezbollah to me.

edit: typo...

[Nemesis6 0]

It's interesting to note that both "massacres" in Qana have been due to HizbAllah and have happened due to HizbAllah using the place for terrorist attacks against Israel both times. And the first time, they actually FOLLOWED the civilians that fled to a UN camp and started firing from that position. Such nice people.

[Stealth3 0]

Nemesis, what you are saying does not match with the reality on the ground.

1. The UN building was bombed with an LGB or some sort of smart bomb dropped directly on the roof. You don't do that if you want to attack nearby militants. Instead you bomb their positions nearby and you dont use a 1000 lb bomb either.

2. When you want to shoot a truck with missiles on it, or launchers, you dont use a 1000 lb bomb. You use a 500 lb or less.

Just the munitions proves that infrastructure was targeted.

And either way where are the parts of the rocket launchers? Surely there must be some debree left. But there is none, so something doesn't add up

And no it doesnt disolve into thin air either.

[Garcia 0]

It's interesting to note that both "massacres" in Qana have been due to HizbAllah and have happened due to HizbAllah using the place for terrorist attacks against Israel both times. And the first time, they actually FOLLOWED the civilians that fled to a UN camp and started firing from that position. Such nice people.

And it can be discussed who are to be blamed most, the ones who made sure the idiots targeted innocent people, or the idiots who was stupid enough to be fooled into targeting the innocent people and thereby showing incompentance. That is, of course, if IDF didn't target the building on purpose...

[Bernadotte 0]

... And the first time, they actually FOLLOWED the civilians that fled to a UN camp and started firing from that position.

Prove it.

According to the UN investigator's report the IDF didn't even make such a claim.  The IDF stated:

Quote[/b] ]The first target was located 200 metres or so south-west of the United Nations compound. The second target was located some 350 metres south-east of the compound.

...

The commanding officer of the artillery battalion had no satisfactory explanation why so many shells had fallen some 200 metres north of the intended target (see the attached sketch). Asked if he had shifted fire during the shelling, he said he had not; he added that the mission had taken only three to four minutes (the time given by the Israeli forces was from 1407 to 1412 hours) and there would have been no time to change target data.

Keep trying!!

[JGreyNemo 0]

I'll be VERY blunt.

1.  Let's face it, nobody in the Middle East liked Israel, even before this mess started.  Arabs have always disliked Israelis for obvious reasons - that can never be swayed.  The only reason Israel could have survived the numerous attacks on its state from Arab aggressors was military support from the US and the EU.  They were doing fine, they had Palestine under control, but now they've decided to launch a ground war against Lebanon - another thorn in the side of Israel.  But it was just a thorn, not an all out threat to the existence of the Israeli state.  But this war is pulling Israel as a state into question.  

2.  Current Israeli incursions and airstrikes into Lebanese territory are now polarising previous Arab/Islamic moderates to hate Israel - en masse.  And not just a disorganised rabble, but a unification of Islamic and Arab factions all pointing to the annihilation of Israel.  

You can scream stupid ignorant crys of "anti-semetic" all you want, but the Arab world is now condemning Israel's actions - soon they will condemn the whole state itself - because Israel does not understand the concept of proportional response.  Which makes Israel war mongering and barbaric even by western standards - this is dangerous because soon Israel, which was already on a tenuous relationship with the EU, and soon Israel will fall out of favour very fast - nobody likes a bully.  If the slaughter continues soon the EU will drop support for Israel like a bad stink.  You cannot have peace with the outbreak of assymetrical warfare.  Because it means that the only way you can be sure to have peace, is the destruction of the entire Arab world.  The more bombs fall on Lebanon, the more Arabs just wanna "kill some child-murdering jews".

There are ten fold more Arabs than Jews in the whole of the middle east, if Israel doesn't stop the fighting soon, they'd better get used to doing it every day, for the rest of their lives.

3. Expect the chants "Death to Israel" to get stronger and coming from not only Syria, Iraq and Iran, but from Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and even places like Malaysia, Pakistan and Indonesia.

4.  Israel has to pull out now, Syria has pledged military support to Lebanon.  If Israel doesn't, expect Iran to suddenly be injecting a whole lot of money and hardware into Hezbollah OVERTLY, and not just secretly.  It will rain steel over Israel in the coming months, and it's not just silly towel-headed mumbo jumbo - this is now a multi-state war.

5. If Israel doesn't pull out, the whole state of Israel, left wing, right wing, orthodox, pro war, anti war - will all suffer in a country that is locked in a perpetual state of war, and not just suicide bombers, but actual all out, house to house, running gun battles, showers of al-quasa and Katuyshas.

6.  Israel has the bomb, (In case you forgot) and the first country they'll use it on is Iran.  And nowadays, it seems Israel is that reckless.  And if it does, well.  You can pretty much strike Israel and all other Arab countries off the map and just ignore it for say... a thousand years.  And don't expect even the US to condone such a blatantly destructive act of stupidity - which seems to be growing amongst the Israeli government.

5. The ball is in Israel's court.  This is fact.  They can whine all they want, but they're the ones with superior fire-power - as of right now - ergo, they have the luxury of being able to negotiate a peace treaty at gunpoint.  Sure not the best circumstances for peace, but that's the best they can do at this point.  But they can't negotiate if they continue to move forces into Lebanon, bomb cities and kill innocents (under the cowards umbrella of "Hezbollah forced us to bomb civilians" - well that makes the IDF just as BAD if not worse than Hezbollah)  which is why Israel has lost all credibility not just amongst Arab nations, but amongst growing number of western nations too.

Iran is smiling as Israel's support reaches rock bottom. Iran definitely wants a war with Israel, they have repeatedly stated that they want to wipe Israel off the map. But they can't do it themselves, not without other Arab nations. Why do you think Iran is funding Hezbollah? You think they care about the welfare Lebanon, or that of Hezobollah? No of course not. They wish to use Lebanon as a recruitment drive for all Arab nations to focus on the goal of the destruction of Israel - under the guise of "the pacification" of Israel to appease the conciences of moderate Islamic governments. Iran worse than Israel - Iran won't settle for peace with Israel, they want war - a purifying holy war against Israel, but Israel is falling into the trap of giving Iran more regional support in its cold war with Israel. Right now it is words, but soon it will be guns, rockets, missles, soldiers and shelling.

If Israel's attitude towards resolution of the situation doesn't change soon, Israel will be all alone with a radical Iran, deep in the mess that Iran helped and Israel itself created.  

Israel cannot decry the actions of monsters when Israel itself commits the very atrocities it decries in front of the world's eyes.

Remember people sympathise with Israel because its people have suffered much not only at the hands of Arabs, but at the hands of Europeans. However that sympathy and guilt only stretches so far.

And if that happens, may God truly be with Israel.  Because peace certainly never will be.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Quote[/b] ]U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan had called the meeting last Friday, but the world's major powers have said no force can be put in place until fighting stops and Israel, Lebanon and Hezbollah agree to its deployment, Reuters reported.

Source

As I predicted, nobody is going to risk his neck in that multinational peace force before peace itself reigns there - I don't think it ever will anymore...

[Stealth3 0]

An interesting article:

http://www.boston.com/news....s_fight

Some interesting points:

Quote[/b] ]The downtown itself was an apocalyptic landscape. In the winding streets of the old city -- recently a vibrant downtown market where villagers from the entire region came to shop -- not a single home or shop had escaped shelling or bombing. Entire blocks of dwellings had collapsed onto the street, exposing the traces of life still standing -- a bed frame, half a wall with a family portrait, the rear stockroom of a shoe shop.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1835249,00.html

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

actually arent Arabs Semites too?

[Ironsight 1]

actually arent Arabs Semites too?

Yes.

Now something else:

Quote[/b] ]What Really Happens Pallywood

8/1/2006 - This is a really interesting 60 minutes segment from a few yeas ago about how the Palestinians use their own camera crews and actors to basically set up war scenes in their favor. Their calling it Pallywood and I thought it was pretty relavent considering whats happening now in the middle east.

Video link

[Garcia 0]

BUZZARD @ Aug. 01 2006,12:05)]

Quote[/b] ]U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan had called the meeting last Friday, but the world's major powers have said no force can be put in place until fighting stops and Israel, Lebanon and Hezbollah agree to its deployment, Reuters reported.

Source

As I predicted, nobody is going to risk his neck in that multinational peace force before peace itself reigns there - I don't think it ever will anymore...

Norway have been pushing for some time for a international force in Lebanon, and now they've got 120 men ready to man MTBs in Libanon. Now other countries just got to follow up, as 120 men can't do much

[mp_phonix 0]

I heard that Spain and Belgioum [hope I spelled it right] want to join to. Spain is willing to send 800 men

[Nemesis6 0]

Phoenix, you think a "multinational force" will help? I mean, your country is fighting to get back the soldiers kidnapped, so a peacekeeping mission, is, right now, in my opinion, irrelevant since there is no peace to keep.

[mp_phonix 0]

It's not for the purpose of peace keeping, it's for the purpose of keeping Hizballah away from our border

[Nemesis6 0]

... And the first time, they actually FOLLOWED the civilians that fled to a UN camp and started firing from that position.

Prove it.

According to the UN investigator's report the IDF didn't even make such a claim. The IDF stated:

Quote[/b] ]The first target was located 200 metres or so south-west of the United Nations compound. The second target was located some 350 metres south-east of the compound.

...

The commanding officer of the artillery battalion had no satisfactory explanation why so many shells had fallen some 200 metres north of the intended target (see the attached sketch). Asked if he had shifted fire during the shelling, he said he had not; he added that the mission had taken only three to four minutes (the time given by the Israeli forces was from 1407 to 1412 hours) and there would have been no time to change target data.

Keep trying!!

Uhhh, yeah, the U.N is irrelevant and so are your arguments. Read what happened and realize that I'm right - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Qana_shelling

[Garcia 0]

... And the first time, they actually FOLLOWED the civilians that fled to a UN camp and started firing from that position.

Prove it.

According to the UN investigator's report the IDF didn't even make such a claim.  The IDF stated:

Quote[/b] ]The first target was located 200 metres or so south-west of the United Nations compound. The second target was located some 350 metres south-east of the compound.

...

The commanding officer of the artillery battalion had no satisfactory explanation why so many shells had fallen some 200 metres north of the intended target (see the attached sketch). Asked if he had shifted fire during the shelling, he said he had not; he added that the mission had taken only three to four minutes (the time given by the Israeli forces was from 1407 to 1412 hours) and there would have been no time to change target data.

Keep trying!!

Uhhh, yeah, the U.N is irrelevant and so are your arguments. Read what happened and realize that I'm right - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Qana_shelling

Uh...first of all, UN is not irrelevant, as it was their position that camp that got hit...

second, the link you posted does not even once mention that Hizbollah followed civilians to the UN camp.

However, it says this:

Quote[/b] ]According to a U.N. report, on April 18, Hezbollah fighters fired two or three Katyusha rockets and between five and eight mortars at Israeli soldiers near the so-called Red Line (the northern limits of the "security zone") from positions about 220 meters southwest and 350 meters southeast of the United Nations compound.

Which fits good with Bernadottes quote, which was this:

Quote[/b] ]The first target was located 200 metres or so south-west of the United Nations compound. The second target was located some 350 metres south-east of the compound.

...

The commanding officer of the artillery battalion had no satisfactory explanation why so many shells had fallen some 200 metres north of the intended target (see the attached sketch). Asked if he had shifted fire during the shelling, he said he had not; he added that the mission had taken only three to four minutes (the time given by the Israeli forces was from 1407 to 1412 hours) and there would have been no time to change target data.

Also, your source gives the result of 2 investigations, which all comes to the conclusion that IDF fucked up...

UN investigation:

Quote[/b] ]The UN appointed military advisor Major-General Franklin van Kappen of the Netherlands to investigate the incident. His conclusions were:

(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

© During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.

Amnesty International investigation:

Quote[/b] ]Amnesty International conducted an on-site investigation of the incident in collaboration with military experts, using interviews with UNIFIL staff and civilians in the compound, and posing questions to the IDF, who did not reply. Amnesty concluded, "the IDF intentionally attacked the UN compound, although the motives for doing so remain unclear. The IDF have failed to substantiate their claim that the attack was a mistake. Even if they were to do so they would still bear responsibility for killing so many civilians by taking the risk to launch an attack so close to the UN compound."

Also, Human Rights Watch said this (also from your source):

Quote[/b] ]Human Rights Watch concurred, "The decision of those who planned the attack to choose a mix of high-explosive artillery shells that included deadly anti-personnel shells designed to maximize injuries on the ground — and the sustained firing of such shells, without warning, in close proximity to a large concentration of civilians — violated a key principle of international humanitarian law."

Now, you've given us a lot of information supporting Bernadotte...so where is the information that support your claim that Hizbollah followed refugees to the UN camp and fired from there?

[Nemesis6 0]

A lebanese guy disagrees. Here's a more accurate version of events - http://p_blog.blogspot.com/2006....es.html

It even links to the same document that you linked to. Here he sums them up -

Quote[/b] ]they were killed by Israeli shelling while they were taking refuge at a UN camp. The reason the Israelis were shelling that area is because Hizb Allah deliberately set up their rockets right next to the camp in order to draw Israeli fire onto the camp.

The victims had taken refuge in the UN camp because Hizb Allah initially set up their rockets in the victims’ village. When the villagers fled, Hizb Allah then followed them to the camp and started shelling Israel from a position adjacent the camp, knowing full well Israel would return fire in self defence.