European Politics Thread.

[nettrucker 142]

I never thought I'd say that - but please read the Youtube comments. Its just propaganda from people who actually are stupid enough to think that the breaking of the Euro would be a good thing. In some way, they're like those who keep on making debts - they don't look in the future.

For being honest I didn't read the comments below the vid. I'm more concerned what ESM represents for us Europeans and our future . . . if a future we have.

cheers

[batto 17]

This is really sad:

http://boingboing.net/2012/07/03/home-secretary-to-uk-net-activ.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

He faces up to 10 years in US for making a website with links to other video hosting sites. There is a petition in UK against extradition with 160000 signatures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVShack

[Tonci87 163]

That is a shame, it seems like US entertainment giants can get away with everything

[PELHAM 10]

RE the O'Dwyer thing, I don't really give two hoots either way, but, there is much untruth posted all over the internet regarding the case and many of the facts are left out. You all know how that irritates me lol. I would suggest reading the actual Judgement before making up your mind on this.

-Earnings from the website are over $230,000.

-It is in fact a crime in the UK, the fact that the CPS has not chosen to follow through a case or prosecute one does not nullify the Statutory Act of Parliament.

-While physically in the UK, The US believes a crime under US law was committed in the US. They are therefore perfectly entitled to seek extradition. That is what extradition is for, it stops criminals using borders to get away with it.

-Arguments as to whether O'dwyer has committed a crime or not, his guilt or innocence aren't really relevant to an extradition hearing, those arguments are decided at a trial. The US only has to provide significant evidence and they have it, much from O'Dwyers own statements to police.

-Some websites claim no US citizen has ever been extradited to the UK - untrue.

-Some websites claim the UK has never refused an extradition request - untrue.

-Some websites claim the Home Secretary has the power to intervene, she does, if there is a doubt over human rights, there isn't one at the moment. She signed the extradition document after the Judgement and hearing as she was obliged to do. Unless the evidence shows that extradition would breach the European Convention on Human Rights it would be unlawful for the Home Secretary to refuse extradition.

While I don't think crucifying this kid is the right thing to do, they could have just taken his money from him in a civil case?, the Media giants want to set an example and unfortunately for O'Dwyer they can do it perfectly legally. Guilt or innocence aside - he willfully got himself into this mess and made matters worse by opening up another website when the 1st was shut down and taunting the US authorities on it! We all know where that gets you and Judges take a particularly dim view of people putting 2 fingers up at the law.

The Government of the United States of America -v- O'Dwyer

Westminster Magistrates’ Court. Ruling of District Judge Purdy dated 13th January 2012. Extradition Act 2003. Issues:

(i) Extradition offence/dual criminality see S.78 (4) (b)/137

(ii) passage of time: S.82

(iii) Human Rights: disproportionate: Article 8 ECHR/forum? Section 87(2).

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/media/judgments/2012/usa-v-odwyer-ruling

Detailed judgement is in the pdf at the bottom. It's worth a read to get the full picture.

A detailed study of the US/UK extradition treaty was undertaken recently by an independent member of the Judiciary and it was found to be balanced. He recommended few changes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/9900651

Edited July 4, 2012 by PELHAM

[celery 8]

Acta: Controversial anti-piracy agreement rejected by EU

[Prydain 1]

Well done the EU. Sense at last.

At least for the moment.

[nettrucker 142]

Hi all

German Bundestag approved the ESM and the Fiscal pact. This is once more a clear sign that we the people all over in Europe are not represented anymore by our politicians.

Read here

http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/663.php#continue..

There's also a video but it's unfortunately in German language at least our German community members can watch it.

This is so fucked up and the people are asleep.

For those of you who don't know about the ESM (European Stability Mechanism) I can only urge you to do some research on it.

cheers

Edited July 12, 2012 by nettrucker

[Tonci87 163]

Hi all

German Bundestag approved the ESM and the Fiscal pact. This is once more a clear sign that we the people all over in Europe are not represented anymore by our politicians.

Read here

http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/663.php#continue..

There's also a video but it's unfortunately in German language at least our German community members can watch it.

This is so fucked up and the people are asleep.

For those of you who don't know about the ESM (European Stability Mechanism) I can only urge you to do some research on it.

cheers

Nothing new.

[nettrucker 142]

Nothing new.

yeah I know Tonci . . . for those of us who keep themselves informed it's not new. But 90% of all people I have asked didn't know anything about it. They don't even know what ESM is. Since I'm living in Italy notwithstanding I am German I am very much concerned about the development of the whole situation here in the EU. Now in Italy the vote will be held on 20/07/12 and I have no doubt about the outcome of the same. If it'll pass in the EU, which I have no doubt about, it'll mean that the rope has just been placed around our necks.

[PELHAM 10]

I of course know about the ESM......what you got against it precisely? The link didn't have anything concrete in it.

[nettrucker 142]

Hi Pelham

watch the video i posted in the previous page than you'll know why I'm against it.

Regards

Edited July 12, 2012 by nettrucker

[PELHAM 10]

Errrr the video isn't being entirely honest though is it?

-The fund will not actually hold €700 Billion, that is the amount it will be able to call on. The day to day working balance will be €80 billion as paid in capital. Why the video uses an extra 5 zeros on it's blank cheque (100 thousand trillion) I'm not sure.

-The board of governors will consist of finance ministers from EU member nations. They are democratically elected polititians and will have no greater powers than the exisiting council of Europe. Decisions will be taken based on a 2/3 majority vote of those governors.

-It will be subject to independent and external audit.

-The immunity clauses are misrepresented. The ESM will be part of the EU system of government and the clauses simply give it the standard diplomatic immunity that is common internationally and exists already eg in the Council of Europe. It does not put it above the law and beyond the reach of national governments as suggested, because it will be governed by them.

Why you always resort to getting your info from cartoonish youtube videos and fringe websites I'm not sure? Here is the actual text:

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/latest-eu-news/european-parliament-factsheet-on-the-treaty-establishing-the-european-stability-mechanism.html

http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/582311/05-tesm2.en12.pdf

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/latest-eu-news/2012-country-specific-recommendations-in-the-context-of-the-european-semester-frequently-asked-questions.html?q=european+stability+mechanism

Edited July 12, 2012 by PELHAM

[nettrucker 142]

I would like to explain it to you, but it can't be done here on this forum without getting in troubles with MODs.

Let's say I don't trust our politicians and our governments one single bit. I don't believe the bullshit they are spouting.

We are living in a system where corruption is everywhere. Corruption undermines everything from economy to politics to our judicial system. Our constitutions are worthless peace of paper. I hope at least that you can agree with me on that or at least accept my point of view.

Political Immunity is the first thing I would get rid of. Political immunity means that the laws don't apply to those who are granted with. It is something unacceptable to me. Everyone must be held accountable for their actions.

1. In the interest of the ESM, the Chairperson of the Board of Governors, Governors, alternate Governors, Directors, alternate Directors, as well as the Managing Director and other staff members shall be immune from legal proceedings with respect to acts performed by them in their official capacity and shall enjoy inviolability in respect of their official papers and documents.

I think that this does not leave a lot room of interpretation. It means I'm above the law, I can do what I want without risking being held accountable for my actions. There are plenty of points that I very much dislike but I won't discuss them here. It would really take too long and its something to be done by a good beer or a glass of wine if you prefer . . . sitting in front of each other, discussing things.

cheers :cheers:

[PELHAM 10]

They are accountable to the voters and it is subordinate to the European Commission.........the Governors will all be members of Governments in the EU (Financial ministers). There has to be some level of confidentiallity relating to the work as it involves many intimate aspects of member state's finances and economies. If all that were public it could be misused by other non EU nations and the system wouldn't work. This simply puts a control on finances as there is a realisation that within the EU they are interdependent.

The legal wording is open to interpretation particularly if quoted out of context. It is standard for an international treaty organisation and confers the standard level of diplomatic immunity for the politicians involved in managing it. It sounds suspicious because you have never heard of it before and you don't understand how international law works which is above the level of the Nation State. They are not politically immune as you say, they are legally immune within the legal context of the Nation State, as the work is part of a treaty between Nations, i.e. International Law ratified by the individual parliaments.

This must be the 20th argument I have seen here involving international law, people just don't understand that there is a different legal system that applies to relations between Nation States. I would read the following, paying particular attention to Supranational law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supranational_law

The excuse that, you can't discuss your reasoning, because you may be banned just for your point of view is rather ridiculous and I don't see how a legal discussion could lead to such an event.

Edited July 12, 2012 by PELHAM

[nettrucker 142]

Your blind trust in authorities and laws is really amazing and I gonna leave it by that.

[PELHAM 10]

I'm not blind, I can see how it works and I understand it. I don't trust them, but you have to know what you are talking about to have constructive criticism.

[The_Blackfish 2]

Its times like these that I am happy the UK is still using the pound. I mean we are not in a great position ourselves but we could have been in a worse situation if we were flying with the crows in the EU.

I am hopeful that the recent Euro crises will prompt the UK to retake back some of its powers that are currently in the hands of Brussels. Europe is not Britain and Britain is not Europe. So our Economic and Political freedoms should be controlled by ourselves.

Sovereignty for EU countries!

[mrcash2009 0]

http://news.sky.com/story/977145/train-passengers-face-airport-style-security

At least a quarter of rail and tube passengers will be scanned for explosives, knives and guns under new Government proposals.

... Well 'initially' shall we say :) Safety first fellow travellers.

[Tonci87 163]

http://news.sky.com/story/977145/train-passengers-face-airport-style-security

At least a quarter of rail and tube passengers will be scanned for explosives, knives and guns under new Government proposals.

... Well 'initially' shall we say :) Safety first fellow travellers.

Wow, that is really getting out of control...

[Baff1 0]

They are going to place a microchip in my face to monitor if I am smiling.

[PELHAM 10]

They are going to place a microchip in my face to monitor if I am smiling.

If it also detects lip movement during reading there may be some merit to the study?

RE railway passenger scanning:

It's beyond current technology and is unlikely to succeed, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it lol. The leading company that manufactures airport scanners has serious doubts about the feasibility of any such project.

This is just a draft idea to look at current technology with a view to improving railway safety in the future, lest we forget 7/7 and the 52 deaths and 700 injured just 7 years ago? Without some good luck and the failed second attack it would have been much worse.

Edited August 26, 2012 by PELHAM

[mrcash2009 0]

It's beyond current technology and is unlikely to succeed, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it lol.

This is of course until they start "trails" in certain select towns/cities. The simple fact they are already floating this to media and sniffing around this "proposal" its simply a matter of time of the best way it should and will be implemented, how long, and end results we shall see.

lest we forget 7/7 and the 52 deaths and 700 injured just 7 years ago? Without some good luck and the failed second attack it would have been much worse.

So therefore its needed? Or in 7 years we have had less than much of anything meaning its not necessary? Maybe its Ironic that if it was in place Jean Charles de Menezes might have had his head fully intact to this day also (speaking of gun slinger on the tube) *cough* lest we forget that important minor detail.

[PELHAM 10]

Providing they can develop something that does not cause delays, what's the problem?

This is not only about terrorism, there is also a problem with criminals carrying guns and knives around London. They have had trials with metal detectors and drug dogs at weekends conducted on a random sampling of passengers and recovered a significant trawl of weapons and drugs. If it can be implemented I think it's an excellent idea. It probably will not happen this decade as the technology doesn't exist to put it into every day practice.

[mrcash2009 0]

Problems come like all tech when the issue its brought in for is then extended once in place. For example it doesn't take much of a stretch to include in such tech as all the facial recognition features which are slowly being woven into a lot of purchasing ideas of late already (see facebook linking for one). There is also the open debate of scanning and xray with radiation levels and permanent scanning (more regular than normal with travelling), there is also the side of "virtual strip search" tech and privacy ... there is in fact plenty of problems or side issues with it. Plus the fact that when and if and how it comes into place will it then get extended into ... shopping center entraces? Anywhere (hand helds) if you simply want to scan for weapons in public areas.

Whether you welcome it, or question it, its still not so cut & dried as safety only.

It probably will not happen this decade as the technology doesn't exist to put it into every day practice.

The next decade for the youngters using basic transport will have fun then.

Edited August 26, 2012 by mrcash2009

[Tonci87 163]

Providing they can develop something that does not cause delays, what's the problem?

This is not only about terrorism, there is also a problem with criminals carrying guns and knives around London. They have had trials with metal detectors and drug dogs at weekends conducted on a random sampling of passengers and recovered a significant trawl of weapons and drugs. If it can be implemented I think it's an excellent idea. It probably will not happen this decade as the technology doesn't exist to put it into every day practice.

THIS is about Freedom and Dignity!

Ever been to the airport lately?