European Politics Thread.

[mrcash2009 0]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-retreats-on-digital-big-brother-plan-7615542.html

Government retreats on digital 'Big Brother' plan : Home Secretary accused of mishandling surveillance proposals

Good job "For Now".

Although like SOPA/SOCA I await the next reworded proposal under a different number to be slotted in at a later date in the year as mentioned (so its not gone away just diluted and wait for people to calm down solution). Either that or Anonymous and the news will scare the world and it will jump back on the table again, we shall see I guess.

As you can see Pelham, not giving a shit isn't always the best policy :) Although you might want to write to them to implement it, or at best question those who helped pause this for now, as of course they are scared for no reasons and clearly need to have their heads checked the silly people.

[batto 17]

Well then - perhaps next time you will wait till you know something concrete before posting wild, innacurate and offensive statements? You see if you want to speculate about how bad things might be, I can speculate how good they might be it's a fantastic waste of time isn't it?

Says guy that speculates what will GCHQ have access to and tries to present it as a well-known fact. Did you just made that e-mail headers thing up? I can't find it anywhere. C'mon PEHALM...

I find your post offensive.

EDIT: Oh, I see, Mr. Cameron said that. Well he should define what "content" is because my friends usually plan jihad via ARMA group chat.

Edited April 6, 2012 by batto

[PELHAM 10]

lol some IQ's here are offensive.

I am happy they are going to consult more widely on this and would agree it has been mismanaged. They should have realised after the last government failed at this, it would need careful handling. I think the possibility of allowing local government and police access to this is wrong, I would be happy if it was used only for national security issues and the smaller the number of people allowed access the better. A civil service free for all wouldn't be right because it increases the likelihood of someone you know or who knows of you leaking your personal info.

This happens regularly now with the digitised NHS records. Those nosey nurses look up the medical records of friends and neighbours and no one is doing anything about it. Same with the police, someone in the police once told me some personal information about a celebrity they had looked up while bored on a nightshift and indicated it was a favourite game. It's just wrong that personal data should be used in this way. So while I'm not fully opposed to some data collection, the access must be strictly controlled and monitored. They fail to do this at every step. There is an attitude problem amongst the civil service, they think their position gives them the right to snoop.

In truth, from experience, I mostly agree with what you have to say. It was fun running counter point to help you get your arguments straight tho lol. If every government department is allowed access eventually you will find data being sold to the press as happens now with every other database they have.

Edited April 6, 2012 by PELHAM

[Tonci87 163]

lol some IQ's here are offensive.

I am happy they are going to consult more widely on this and would agree it has been mismanaged. They should have realised after the last government failed at this, it would need careful handling. I think the possibility of allowing local government and police access to this is wrong, I would be happy if it was used only for national security issues and the smaller the number of people allowed access the better. A civil service free for all wouldn't be right because it increases the likelihood of someone you know or who knows of you leaking your personal info.

This happens regularly now with the digitised NHS records. Those nosey nurses look up the medical records of friends and neighbours and no one is doing anything about it. Same with the police, someone in the police once told me some personal information about a celebrity they had looked up while bored on a nightshift and indicated it was a favourite game. It's just wrong that personal data should be used in this way. So while I'm not fully opposed to some data collection, the access must be strictly controlled and monitored. They fail to do this at every step. There is an attitude problem amongst the civil service, they think their position gives them the right to snoop.

In truth, from experience, I mostly agree with what you have to say. It was fun running counter point to help you get your arguments straight tho lol. If every government department is allowed access eventually you will find data being sold to the press as happens now with every other database they have.

WTF? o.O

You were running counter point to help us get our arguments straight? That the most stupid excuse that I ever heard for "beeing wrong the whole time"

[PELHAM 10]

WTF? o.O

You were running counter point to help us get our arguments straight? That the most stupid excuse that I ever heard for "beeing wrong the whole time"

There isn't really a wrong or a right in this, you are either in favour or not. I'm in favour with a few caveats, that has always been my opinion. It will happen, it's inevitable. I just hope they focus it on National Security and don't turn it into a general civil service tool that can be abused.

[mrcash2009 0]

lol some IQ's here are offensive.

Isnt insinuating peoples IQ levels a tad Offensive? Or were you contradicting yourself in 7 words for fun? :)

Anyway ... moving on ...

There isn't really a wrong or a right in this, you are either in favour or not. I'm in favour with a few caveats, that has always been my opinion. It will happen, it's inevitable.

What would they be? ... genuine question, not a loaded one.

I just hope they focus it on National Security and don't turn it into a general civil service tool that can be abused.

And that is where we differ and some others, becuase allot see how things have already gone that way (the use of terror laws in some real strange places) already, the introduction of scanners, the blanket option fits all, square peg in a round hole scenario. The fact we are the most surveillance in the world (for a while) .. and I put those together as a big picture, and seeing as this new approach adds to this when we already have enough in place (GCHQ you already mentioned) being brought in my the same crews that have built it up so far, this is why I look at my watch and see things ahead of time in concerns, I just dont accept it, no caveats for me.

Because I think, and I agree you dont, that they will and it will in the long run be abused, I cant base things on hope & cling to how it should be done, many crooked things are spilling to the surface in these times, that's not be arguing your point but seeing the difference in the views.

But I have to stress Pelham, bringing a hint IQ's into will get peoples backs up, its not needed really, after all you did bring the offensive card into it first remember :)

Edited April 6, 2012 by mrcash2009

[PELHAM 10]

Am I going to have to explain every single sentence I write on these forums to you? The language is concise and the meaning clear. The caveats etc are in there fully exlained. You misunderstand such a great deal I really don't have the time as you quote and highlight somewhere between 25 - 50% of my posts. If english is not your 1st language all I can suggest is something like google translate. If it was a word or two here and there well I wouldn't mind but there is a limit to what I can do for you, sorry.

Edited April 7, 2012 by PELHAM

[mrcash2009 0]

Isnt this what you said I did, which is not answer you? Although I did and did justify my point (stasi comment and so on), I genuinely asked what the caveats were you had with accepting it as I was interested, although nice little role reversal :)

Am I going to have to explain every single sentence I write on these forums to you? The language is concise and the meaning clear. The caveats etc are in there fully exlained.

You sound just like me here :)

You wrote about GCHQ current data mining, but you haven't wrote about the caveats to accepting this new surveillance (moving into that area specifically), IE what would it be within this new idea put forward that you would accept (a list so to speak)? I personally dont accept it at all, but as someone who does, what would be those points in order for it to be ok?

If english is not your 1st language all I can suggest is something like google translate.

You insinuate IQ now talk about not understanding english, and you were the one who brought in offensive, I didn't.

Point in all of this is, we seem to have to justify to you, but when it suits for you its a little different, my question was a genuine one that I actually wasn't going to quote, funny enough. You have wanted me to answer to you here, I ask a normal question as I thought we were getting a bit further along with it and now that's not ok.

Its not some forum game entrapment question, you mentioned you accept with caveats which got me thinking, you haven't mentioned those before (just our to and fro GCQH data mining are thats in place already).

So I will put it generally then, those who read this and are ok with it (your choice and accepted) what would be your list of things to be in place for it to be acceptable & palatable? Based on the fact it will come back around again, those who are not for it so far, would there be some caveats to it that would lead you to think differently about it later? So then its not directed to Pelham specifically.

BTW I know what the article official stance is, but things will change with 2.0 version no doubt, and that's why getting peoples views other than official views on caveats is always more interesting, after all, technically its all of us that would have this delivered to us. Also I dont think democracy will come into this with a vote by the people either Pelham, thats food for thought when you talk about systems & processes. Its just "terror & safety" ... installed, thanks, the x million people under its radar wont get a say once that badge is used, just a few collectives mulling over it. And as I always mention while we already have systems in place for mining, and warrent based checks.

It will happen, it's inevitable.

Sorry another quote :)

Edited April 7, 2012 by mrcash2009

[vilas 477]

you missed things i said about meat production, does in your countries there are such economical nonsenses too ?

[mrcash2009 0]

There is a slow trend of over pricing meats based on the "junk food" terror tag at the moment:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125335/Is-end-cheap-burger-EU-diktat-low-quality-meat-means-prices-set-soar.html

And I do know farmers do have to grow certain regulated foods, or even stop growing certain types of foods due to regulations (we had a documentary about this in the UK recently but I cant seem to locate it). Unsure if its the same thing you mention, but things are geting very messed around with in those areas pretty much everywhere.

BTW Pelham heres a good one for you when your waiting for surveillance to help you get that flight:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/9189275/New-scanners-could-end-airline-liquids-ban.html

New scanners could end airline liquids ban

The ban on passengers taking liquids on planes could be lifted within a year after ministers approved a new generation of airport scanners.

Like I said before dream on if you think this is in any way going to make life any easier and more free, where's the democratic vote prior to this for the majority voters who use this service incl you? How many liquid bombers are skulking the airports? There is also alot of information about that liquid bomber attempt which questions if that could have actualy have worked even though it was a "plan & plot" only. But PHEW! At least we can lift the ban on liquids and only have the scanners, bonus! And always remember you can pay to be fast tracked through if you wish, added bonus.

Your inconvenience is solved, by more scanners, its just a promotion tool for scanners, piss people off enough with stupid searches based on nothing actualy happeneing, and then drop the marvel of simple scanners all day long, the scanners were waiting to be rolled out waaay before they did finaly get the roll out.

Trains, coach terminals are next.

Edited April 7, 2012 by mrcash2009

[Tonci87 163]

Yes Vilas.

Croatia want´s to join the EU (well the government want´s it) and croatia was forced to sell state controlled companys (Shipyards, Petrol, Steel industry). Everything had to be sold quite fast so they didn´t have the time to search for good investors. Many companys were bought by companys who immediatels dimanteld the factorys and closed them down, selling everything just half a year later. Many people lost their jobs and the state lost a lot of money and income. Remaining shipyards were not allowed to start working on new contracts until they were not approved by the EU. EU is stupid.

[Baff1 0]

Lots of face palms no tangible counter arguments? So this law is bad because it gives the corrupt oppressive UK regime more powers to oppress the people. Right I get it now - so if I were to pack up and leave to claim assylum somewhere else. Where do I go that's better?

Pretty much everywhere I'm afraid to say.

Typically to escape over-intrusion by the state ones goes to a place with a smaller state apparutus, or moves further away from social centres such as towns.

So in order order to find a country with a smaller state infrastructure/appartus of control.... one can pretty much choose any other country in the world.

And in order to live further out of the grasp of state apparatus one could also choose any country less populated than here, so perhaps not Japan.

I do not in anyway trust the government to make ani-terrorist laws and then not use them on the entire population as a means to another ends.

I've been on the receiving end of it in the past.

It wasn't a big deal, but it did teach me that if a wanker can't use the principle of the law to shaft you, that won't prevent him from using the letter of the law to shaft you.

[batto 17]

Sad.

https://torrentfreak.com/pirate-party-ordered-to-shut-down-pirate-bay-proxy-120414/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3840869

[Tonci87 163]

Sad indeed, Organisations like BREIN shouldn´t be allowed to censor the internet. It is very strange that the Pirate Party wasn´t heared by the judge while BREIN was allowed to present 20 pages of arguments. That happens if you let people who have abolutely no clue on the subject to decide its future.

[nettrucker 142]

How sick and missgiuded are our politicians who are running our countries???????

Please watch this vid. It's is a gleaming example on how sick and missguided our politicians are . . . especially here in Italy.

EDXYgzvz_Z8&feature=player_embedded

Monti which is leading our so called "technical government" is a former adviser of Goldmann and Sachs. He is also member of the Bilderberg group. This is just as worse as it can get. Now we are all over the world at the beginning of the biggest financial crisis ever seen and those guys keep on expanding military spending meanwhile our economies are about to crumble. Our countries are being run by people with special interests in mind rather than the well being of the people. The first austerity measures have been implemented here and the people are suffering.

IMHO we can't trust our governments anymore.

[Tonci87 163]

Why does Italy need 131 new fighter aircraft? There is not a single country in the area with such a big airforce.

This is stupid.

[nettrucker 142]

Why does Italy need 131 new fighter aircraft? There is not a single country in the area with such a big airforce.

This is stupid.

yeah it definitely is stupid. It confirms to me pratically that the politicians in our governments run their own agenda. We the people are not asked how use the tax money. We are just ignored. That goes for all European countries no excption made for me.

We're in the biggest debt crisis all over the world and these morons are buying 131 new aircraft fighter. Now can somebody tell me something more sick and missguided. We the people are asked to take it up our a$$ as usual.

Italy is economically close down to it's knees together with Portugal, Spain, Ireland. France and Germany will be last. It's time to introduce referendum votes similiar to those in Switzerland. I would introduce a distrust votum to all existing political parties in Europe. The European parlament is full of politicians not fit to do their job. We need the power to reverse bad decisions made by people favouring special interest.

Now if we can't trust our politicians anymore to carry out the will of the people than it's time for constitutional changes to be made. New Laws have to be created and the system has to be changed especially our political istitutions. They are not a solution . . . they are part of the problem.

WTF

Edited April 15, 2012 by nettrucker

[Tonci87 163]

yeah it definitely is stupid. It confirms to me pratically that the politicians in our governments run their own agenda. We the people are not asked how use the tax money. We are just ignored. That goes for all European countries no excption made for me.

We're in the biggest debt crisis all over the world and these morons are buying 131 new aircraft fighter. Now can somebody tell something more sick and missguided. We the people are asked to take it up our a$$ as usual.

Italy is economically close down to it's knees together with Portugal, Spain, Ireland. France and Germany will be last. It's time to introduce referendum votes similiar to those in Switzerland. It would introduce a distrust votum to all existing political parties in Europe. The European parlament is full of politicians not fit to do their job. We need the power to reverse bad decisions made by people favouring special interest.

Now if we can't trust our politicians anymore to carry out the will of the people than it's time for constitutional changes to be made. New Laws have to be created and the system has to be changed especially our political istitutions. They are not a solution . . . they are part of the problem.

WTF

Definately!

[Baff1 0]

I hear that.

[PELHAM 10]

Why does Italy need 131 new fighter aircraft? There is not a single country in the area with such a big airforce.

This is stupid.

90......On 15 February Defence Minister Giampaolo Di Paola announced that Italy would cut its F-35 order by 41 aircraft from the initially announced 131 to 90 as a result of the country's sovereign debt crisis. These cutbacks in defence spending follow billions of euros of other defence cuts. The order seems large because it's not just for the airforce, it includes F-35B's for the Navy. Video not accurate and up to date?

Edited April 15, 2012 by PELHAM

[nettrucker 142]

90......On 15 February Defence Minister Giampaolo Di Paola announced that Italy would cut its F-35 order by 41 aircraft from the initially announced 131 to 90 as a result of the country's sovereign debt crisis. These cutbacks in defence spending follow billions of euros of other defence cuts.

Ohhh what a relieve and I thought we were really f**ked.

Not making fun out of you Pelham.

Italy can't even permit themselves to buy even 1 in the current situation. It's just that those dumb asses don't get it. It will increase the debt agony for the future generations to come. What is it 8 trillions of dollars 90 aircraft?

Not too bad. If this is going to be approved or worse already has been approved than we're screwed.

regards

Edited April 15, 2012 by nettrucker

[PELHAM 10]

Not too bad. If this going to be approved or worse already has been approved than we're screwed.

regards

I thought you might be pleased that life isn't as bad as you thought it was lol ;)

[nettrucker 142]

Yeah thanks for brightening up the mood mate. lol! :)

Edited April 15, 2012 by nettrucker

[Baff1 0]

I have to say I'm not too impressed with the UK buying F 35's either.

[PELHAM 10]

I have to say I'm not too impressed with the UK buying F 35's either.

What's the alternative?