International Politics Thread

[vilas 473]

we became third world country because you broke our "socialism" , and poverty, homeless people, lack of social care, big division between rich and poor came here after 1989

we were normal country , we have over 1000 years tradition

and since 20 years we have problems with job, flats, criminals , since 20 years

third world countries are countries with corruption and big difference between poor and rich and lack of social rights, lack of emploee rights

so america could be also third world in this manner , if homeless living on street without social care while very rich have big palaces

unequality = third world

big "middle class" = good society, like west europe (France, Sweden, Germany, England etc. where people live "normal life" , have employee rights, have medical care, not afraid of gang with rifles etc. , or even Canada - they also live normally as i heard )

what was told in Sicko - you lack od "solidarity" in society, you think "me" not "we"

and why you lack of "economic solidarity between people" ?

and i don't picture USA from "evil USSR" propaganda, but from your movies, TV programs etc. from US

Edited February 7, 2010 by vilas

[sparks50 0]

You are just having a laugh aren't you?

[MehMan 0]

IT'S ALL AMERICAS FAULT, GLORY TO THE USSR, GLORY TO THE KGB AND GETTING SHOT BEHIND THE EAR IN A SMALL ALLEY!

allcaps

Edited February 7, 2010 by MehMan

[echo1 0]

so america could be also third world in this manner , if homeless living on street without social care while very rich have big palaces

unequality = third world

By that logic, every country is a third world country.

[maturin 12]

and i don't picture USA from "evil USSR" propaganda, but from your movies, TV programs etc. from US

Marginally more informative than Polish movies and TV under Communism.

[HyperU2 11]

Somebody call Micheal Moore.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2510700

ST. JOHN'S, N.L. -- Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

Deputy premier Kathy Dunderdale confirmed the treatment at a news conference Tuesday, but would not reveal the location of the operation or how it would be paid for.

"He has gone to a renowned expert in the procedure that he needs to have done," said Ms. Dunderdale, who will become acting premier while Mr. Williams is away for three to 12 weeks.

"In consultation with his own doctors, he's decided to go that route."

Mr. Williams' decision to leave Canada for the surgery has raised eyebrows over his apparent shunning of Canada's health-care system.

"It was never an option offered to him to have this procedure done in this province," said Ms. Dunderdale, refusing to answer whether the procedure could be done elsewhere in Canada.

Mr. Williams, 59, has said nothing of his health in the media.

"The premier has made a commitment that once he's through this procedure and he's well enough, he's going to talk about the whole process and share as much detail with you as he's comfortable to do at that time," she said.

Ms. Dunderdale wouldn't say where in the U.S. Mr. Williams is seeking treatment.

A popular Progressive Conservative premier, Mr. Williams has also seen his share of controversy. During the 2008 federal election, Mr. Williams vehemently opposed the Conservative government, launching his "Anything But Conservative" -- which has been credited with keeping the Tories from winning any seats in the province.

He's also drawn criticism for his support of the seal hunt.

Here's a bonus.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/time-to-end-pelvic-exams-done-without-consent/article1447337/

[Commando84 0]

Im just amazed at why we europeans should give out our banking details according to the swift deal/agreement to help the us fight 'em terrorists but Im really not sure if the whole tracing the money will really make a difference.

I mean they don't have internet and computers in some countries like afghanistan.

The best part is that we should just hand the information over without anything to gain really. What happens if some desperate us goverment employee's feel the need to upgrade their bank account? They just go and remove some money from some european accounts then?

---------- Post added at 03:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 AM ----------

Big Brother is more and more -officially- accepted in EU.

EU ruled and govern by bureaucracy and US "stooges". EU and every country in it wont be strong and a serious global player making such agreements. Next time better take care for what are you voting for.

vote for your countries pirate party to stop laws like Swift :D

[Takko 10]

1st: There is Internet, also in Iraq and Afghanistan

as well as a middle class.

2nd: Typical narrow minded view: There are more european

money-related criminals than Afghans an countries such as suisse

even tolerate this.

Its also for self-help.

[spooky lynx 73]

Reading Vilas' posts at couple of previous pages I realised that I read something about my own country, not Poland.

[seba1976 98]

Vilas, US economical system allows for some individuals to rise over the others. In any case, it was Poland citizen's own greed what made them leave the "benefits" of their previous communism and to pursue the "american dream"... just like the rest of us. People like you, apparently, were only dragged into the process. But do yourself a favor and start looking for the causes of your chaos inside your own country, and stop blaming bogus foreign invaders.

[vilas 473]

Vilas, US economical system allows for some individuals to rise over the others. In any case, it was Poland citizen's own greed what made them leave the "benefits" of their previous communism and to pursue the "american dream"... just like the rest of us. People like you, apparently, were only dragged into the process. But do yourself a favor and start looking for the causes of your chaos inside your own country, and stop blaming bogus foreign invaders.

shame that topic was closed:

So don't be shocked why you're surrounded by adult dickheads Vilas; they are being told that's ok to be like that and even that it makes them better than the rest...

look at what i wrote and what Topas wrote

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=91638&page=18

you wanna know about "benefits" ??

we were fed by serials ala "Dynasty" (Carington, Alexis, etc.) and by CIA propaganda "you will destroy comunism, everyone will have Mercedes and color TV set"

noone told us in 80s "on west there are homeless, unemployment, poverty"

noone

you know what i see every day ?

old ladies begging for food from people walking by street

she worked whole life honestly

she gets 800-1000 PLN retired and ... 500 pay for flat, 300 for medicine and nothing left

belive me - we almost had no unemployed, hunger, poverty, homeless , organized bandits groups

noone told , we were fed by "you will get rich, you will live like in Germany, Sweden etc"

noone said "it will be for 10-20% of you"

i am not poverty man, i have PC, i have EOS 50D , but i feel big anger when i walk street and see old lady that has no money for food

she is not drunkard, she just get pension that not allow to live

when i walk street i am angry seeing guy wearing gang clothes proud to be bandit

i am angry seeing man that not works anywhere and noone controls "where the hell he get money for 2 BMW5"

i am angry when i go to hospital or doctor and FIRST they ask about insurance, than about "what problem do you have"

belive me, noone told it to us in 1981, when my mother was member activist of Solidarity, we had many problems (she was fired from job, we lost home, fired from Doctor degree studies, she ecaped before army chase etc. in 1981)

but she was fighting then for Poland "full of rich like in dynasty" cause CIA told it so :( "destroy system and all will be rich and wealthy", and it was spreaded in churches too

my uncle was in Solidarity also (although he was not arrested, he was not badly treated as my mother in Trade Bank (Bank Handlowy), he was in the same ship building Stocznia Gdanska than Lech Walesa

they all fought for "rich and happy Poland with much much more social benefits" they were cheated and get "wild capitalism", they wanted "more social benefits" or "become like Sweden, Germany"

chaos in my country is also from invaders that bought and destoryed our company "privatisation" and selling plants for very very low money

they bought our banks, plants, manufactures, and destroyed it, liquidated it

now both my mom and uncle say "if we had known in 1981, we would rather join Militia to beat mob"

you wanna know how it looked when i twisted leg in sport accident 10 years ago ?

i went to first hospital on area when i was than (other city), there was no single problem, i get help, i took back to home

when i twisted leg (too much sport) year ago i went and first they wanted insurance, i had to take taxi, get back to home for "insurance book", than i get plaster on leg (i had to pay more for "light"), i had to bought injections

i had to pay for it

and i had to go to local hospital

previously we had free of charge dentist in school, you know ? poor children had free dinner in school (soup, meat, potatos) , now ... look at Topas post - he knows the best as his wife is teacher

Edited February 9, 2010 by vilas

[Takko 10]

Topas is one kind of guy, who blames everything on the youth.

The youth is filled with anger, is ignorant

and does never follow any rules

This was not said recently, but by Sokrates, 230 bf. chr.

she was fighting then for Poland "full of rich like in dynasty" cause CIA told it so

Show me one proof that says, you were all going to be "rich" with an ensured mercedes.

Its always sad to see poor people but thats everywhere, and else was like that

in your Poland 20 years ago.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Takko

[topas 1]

you know what i see every day ?

old ladies begging for food from people walking by street

to quote myself from another topic

Old lonesome lady in an old lonesome backalley of the Old Town

sad truth is that we almost hyperventilated with all that stuff that came after the transformation, colour TVs, western brands available like never before... The point is it's all getting more and more hard to afford.. And people who actyually fought for this dream actually got sucked when it came true... This woman probably worked her arse off for the majority of her life.. what does she have in return now?

Low pension hovering just above the poverty limit; expensive medicine and health care; stupid taxes...

and yeah, probably a medal or a souvenir porcelain vase for having worked a dozen of years at a factory.. or maybe a complement-letter for rebuilding Warsaw

----------------------

Topas is one kind of guy, who blames everything on the youth.

Don't get me wrong here and don't generalize based on one assumption I made there, please

; it was not the essence of my point there

I just pointed out a tragic decay in one of most serious aspects of life at all... I'm not a Freud fan saying that "your problem A came from your father abusing you and your problem B from a bad milk you drunk at age of 5"...

Being a mature and logically thinking adult I would make fun of myself shifting blame for a social situation of one's country just to 'youth'

I am just moved by what I see around; in a disturbing and sad way; and expressed it there

Edited February 9, 2010 by topas

[Takko 10]

sad truth is that we almost hyperventilated with all that stuff that came after the transformation, colour TVs, western brands available like never before... The point is it's all getting more and more hard to afford.. And people who actyually fought for this dream actually got sucked when it came true... This woman probably worked her arse off for the majority of her life.. what does she have in return now?

Low pension hovering just above the poverty limit; expensive medicine and health care; stupid taxes...

and yeah, probably a medal or a souvenir porcelain vase for having worked a dozen of years at a factory.. or maybe a complement-letter for rebuilding Warsaw

For me I don't care. Who tells you that this picture is not from 1981 or some other time

where your beloved communism was relevant?

Why do you even play ArmA? In my book, a lot of things such as cars or TV's are getting cheaper

and cheaper with of course improved technology.

If you want to live like stonage, I welcome you to go back to your old "Poland".

Even russia saw that communism was the wrong way-and they're really better off

nowadays.

Still, you got your opinion, so its just me against you, which makes no sense.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Takko

[vilas 473]

For me I don't care.

you don't care about poor ?

thats why we hate americans and if next plane will crash in next WTC, i hope all "those who not cares" will be there and die

in 2001 i felt sorry for america for 9-11, after some american's opinions i read here - now i don't

this picture is modern by digitar camera - Topas make a lot of artistic photos, i see such ladies everyday

near Hala Mirowska when i was today, one lady wanted "buy me some bread sir"

yesterday i heard similar words from other lady near Big Theater plazza when i was on walk

normal man SHOULD care

John Paul II said "meter of humanity is how you treat poor and weak"

although i don't like church (attitude to sex) for me those words are "saint"

so if someone not care about poor and weak - he is not human, he is selfish human shaped beast

If you want to live like stonage

France, Sweden, Germany... do they also stoneage ???

Even russia saw that communism was the wrong way-and they're really better off

nowadays.

communism had 2 faces - one was "social" second was "terror", and it was wrong, cause Olesha writer told about "red burzhuy"

old system had to be changed, but more into "Sweden" way

USSR way was not good, my family fought for "Swedish, French " life style, which in fact is more socialistic than Poland in 1980

and we were lied by US propaganda of CIA that lied Solidarity activist to fight with commie government

all those "radio free Europe" and etc. all printing machines, all financial support from west etc. they all fed my family members (Solidarity activists in 1981) about "Dynasty, Mercedes, Color TV"

they had no idea that on west there are people living in carton box on streets, we thought that it is only in India, Brazilian favelas etc. we believed that west is "everyone has everything"

Why do you even play ArmA?

like sport, what does it have to system, politics ?? hobby

Edited February 9, 2010 by vilas

[SWT_Janowich 10]

after some american's opinions

Just most of these people here are not even from

america

[topas 1]

@Takko

I seek no argument therefore cannot entirely follow why this semi-agressive tone...

Please point me to a sentence saying that communism is 'beloved' for me...

What I am criticising here is the way that 'freedom' got handled here... If you think I'm not enjoying the rights and privileges that came with it... well, your opinion; never wrote anything like that... What Vilas initially discussed was people's attitude; change in morality and general norms of behavior; I thought I addressed it... there's no praise of communism; just a feeling that people were nicer to each other; willing to help each other on more occasions; and there were higher values to life than 'die rich or trying'

the passage quoted by you cannot be interpreted as praise of communism... unless you jump to conclusions seeing my signature or the overal 'redness' of the profile :P

and the pic one by me; taken last summer

Edited February 9, 2010 by topas

[vilas 473]

eh, politics equal nerve

i'd rather stay away from politics, cause people living in different worlds - will never understand each other and only conflict

the more politics, the more conflicts

the less politics - the more we are friendly to each other in this community

at least than we can share knowledge, addons, fun from whole world - and it will be SUPER

but regarding "internal issues"

something from todays TV News

there was robbery on shop

guy with knife tried to stab shop keeper

shop keeper took knife from robber

killed robber

shop keeper has accusation of "infringement of self defense"

in "new Poland" - you must not react on robery, you must give all money and not defend.. yes... we own transformation a lot :/

Edited February 9, 2010 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

Even russia saw that communism was the wrong way-and they're really better off nowadays.

Hm... I shoudn't say so, because I can compare life before 1991 and after. Before 1991 income structure in my country was far more balanced than now.

Next year there will be 20 years as new democratic Russia exists. And still we almost don't have so called middle-class - the basis of truly socially-oriented and democratic society.

[HyperU2 11]

Becoming Democratic doesn't mean you're doing it right, it just gives you a better shot at it.

[seba1976 98]

shame that topic was closed:

So don't be shocked why you're surrounded by adult dickheads Vilas; they are being told that's ok to be like that and even that it makes them better than the rest...

look at what i wrote and what Topas wrote

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=91638&page=18

you wanna know about "benefits" ??

we were fed by serials ala "Dynasty" (Carington, Alexis, etc.) and by CIA propaganda "you will destroy comunism, everyone will have Mercedes and color TV set"

noone told us in 80s "on west there are homeless, unemployment, poverty"

noone

you know what i see every day ?

old ladies begging for food from people walking by street

she worked whole life honestly

she gets 800-1000 PLN retired and ... 500 pay for flat, 300 for medicine and nothing left

belive me - we almost had no unemployed, hunger, poverty, homeless , organized bandits groups

noone told , we were fed by "you will get rich, you will live like in Germany, Sweden etc"

noone said "it will be for 10-20% of you"

i am not poverty man, i have PC, i have EOS 50D , but i feel big anger when i walk street and see old lady that has no money for food

she is not drunkard, she just get pension that not allow to live

when i walk street i am angry seeing guy wearing gang clothes proud to be bandit

i am angry seeing man that not works anywhere and noone controls "where the hell he get money for 2 BMW5"

i am angry when i go to hospital or doctor and FIRST they ask about insurance, than about "what problem do you have"

belive me, noone told it to us in 1981, when my mother was member activist of Solidarity, we had many problems (she was fired from job, we lost home, fired from Doctor degree studies, she ecaped before army chase etc. in 1981)

but she was fighting then for Poland "full of rich like in dynasty" cause CIA told it so :( "destroy system and all will be rich and wealthy", and it was spreaded in churches too

my uncle was in Solidarity also (although he was not arrested, he was not badly treated as my mother in Trade Bank (Bank Handlowy), he was in the same ship building Stocznia Gdanska than Lech Walesa

they all fought for "rich and happy Poland with much much more social benefits" they were cheated and get "wild capitalism", they wanted "more social benefits" or "become like Sweden, Germany"

chaos in my country is also from invaders that bought and destoryed our company "privatisation" and selling plants for very very low money

they bought our banks, plants, manufactures, and destroyed it, liquidated it

now both my mom and uncle say "if we had known in 1981, we would rather join Militia to beat mob"

you wanna know how it looked when i twisted leg in sport accident 10 years ago ?

i went to first hospital on area when i was than (other city), there was no single problem, i get help, i took back to home

when i twisted leg (too much sport) year ago i went and first they wanted insurance, i had to take taxi, get back to home for "insurance book", than i get plaster on leg (i had to pay more for "light"), i had to bought injections

i had to pay for it

and i had to go to local hospital

previously we had free of charge dentist in school, you know ? poor children had free dinner in school (soup, meat, potatos) , now ... look at Topas post - he knows the best as his wife is teacher

I understand your concerns. Bear in mind that I don't live in the US but in one of the so-called third world countries. But are you saying that the only reason why your country left the previous regime was the US propaganda? You don't see any causes within? I mean, don't you think there were many causes for the rise of communism and many causes for it's fall?

[vilas 473]

i know what my parents / family say about reasons they fought

they had enough of long periods awaiting for free flat, they wanted get more free time and less work etc.

there was so called "21 postulaty" - "21 demands" in 1980

i will tell you what orginal solidarity in Poland demanded :

- free Saturdays - not to work

- shorter period to work and sooner go retired

- better medical help

- more money for people who have small children

(http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_postulat%C3%B3w_MKS)

so it was "more benefits for workers" movement, not "we want capitalism"

Solidarity was trade union , not pro-owners movement

people across the world think that Solidarity wanted destroy communism and raise capitalism

it is not true, Lech Walesa is traitor for old members, they just wanted "more social benefits" "to live like in Sweden or France or Germany" not to live like in US, Argentina, Brazilia etc.

it may sound weird for people abroad, but in fact Sweden, France, Germany had more "social care benefits" than our so-called "socialist" countries

and movement in 1980 that my family was active , was concentrated on "left wing social benefits workers rights"

and they really had no idea that fall of communism will cause unemployment, homeless, without care etc.

people from west may think that we fought for "free market", but this capitalistic economy is "laugh" of history, cause things we gained - are opposite to what we fought

"freedom of speech" was one of demands, but 21 Postulatow was not about politics but also for economy benefits for working class

people were supporting Solidarity because of those "21 demands" and ... now feel cheated and betrayed

Solidarity not even has such level votes that allows to get in parliament , AWS (Election Action Solidarity) ended in trash

while old commy party leaders as first secretary now have in people eyes very good support of trust

it may be surprise for people outside PL, but martial law dictator general Jaruzelski has ca 55% support while only 30% think martial law was bad, really i not cheat, those are statistics of people trust

after few years of "free market" many many people changed their minds

what is weird Lech Walesa has 30-35% of people support - compare it to much bigger to Jaruzelski

only 40-50% of people are voting, second half (or over half) do not vote cause they feel there is noone to be voted for (cause politicians lie)

some local elections have even 20-30% of voters and 70% not vote, cause they feel they not see anyone honest

if someone would ask people in Poland in 80's "do you know that in america there are people without medical care, there are homeless on streets, there are gangs armed in guns" - they would say "noo, impossible, USSR KGB propaganda"

i remember old tv documentary film (KinoPolska TV shows old b/w documents ) , it was from 1979/1980, it was meeting on university with young students - activists of Solidarity (people like my mother, people like my neighbors) and they were asked about future after communism collapse and solidarity win "we will get new car, we will get bigger flat"

and one man (probably Polish communist secret police or commie party member) asked them - "do you know that on west there are people that have no money too ?" and they shouted at him that he is saying bullshit , now after 30 years we know - he said truth

Edited February 10, 2010 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

Well, what's done - is done. The only way out - to move further.

[-Snafu- 77]

Hm... I shoudn't say so, because I can compare life before 1991 and after. Before 1991 income structure in my country was far more balanced than now.

Next year there will be 20 years as new democratic Russia exists. And still we almost don't have so called middle-class - the basis of truly socially-oriented and democratic society.

In 1707 my country was a poor country and then it joined in union with England to form Great Britain for reasons I won't go into detail here.

This union gave us access to the colonies England had around the world and allowed trade to freely move between Scotland and England.

The economic benefits did not become noticeable until 40-50 years down the line.

My point is that a communist state won't turn into a stable and successful democratic capitalist state overnight. It takes time and the former Soviet countries are still very young.

If you want an example, the democratic system in Russia is still forming. A key sign of a stable democratic state is a two party system where two parties become popular enough to effectively dominate the political scene. At the beginning there were many political parties in Russia and if you look at it now there are less. A sign that it is maturing.

If you expected to become like France, Britain or the US overnight, well, that was just not going to happen.

[VanhA-ICON 11]

My point is that a communist state won't turn into a stable and successful democratic capitalist state overnight. It takes time and the former Soviet countries are still very young.

And that is where it might lead to the wrong path.

Being a capitalist state started going wrong from Thatcher/Reagan era when banks and such were raised to a position where they're not responsible to anyone anymore.

Look at the present economic turmoil which is the result of openly declaring greed as a virtue.

My country is going to hell at the moment and all that the politicians are interest in here are the petty rivalries between different parties. Makes me sick to my stomach thinking of how it'll be when my son is old enough to try and find a job....

:(