International Politics Thread

[gulag 10]

@Vilas

You make me laugh

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

@Vilas

You make me laugh

I'm trying to figure out if he's a Polish nationalist, or a communist, or both.

The EU is going in the direction of USSR, but with a better implementation of all their stated ideals and/or goals.

You won't recognize the EU in 30 years; the change will be as swift as it was in the 1775-1814, 1921-1945, etc periods. Secondary countries will lose their national identities - all of Eastern & Northern Europe.

Question remains: if the peoples will give it away as enthusiastically, as they have embarked on the journey of Nationalism, or if some external force is required in order to bring Order to the current Chaos -- a dirty Bomb, a low kT black-market nuke in London, maybe even Zurich, but that's details.

[Baff1 0]

Those peoples with out much national spirit will give it away gladly, (if they have not done so already).

The ones in tiny countries without sexy histories and cultural identites. Those with no bational tradition.

Those who have had their nationalism quoshed by military force and fear to reinvent them in case it provokes a repeat run. They will embrace it too.

Those without the status of UN security council or G8 membership.

Those who as an independant nation have no bragging rights.

For those peoples, they will be EU citizens from the worlds largest economy, with worlds reserve currency and a nuclear power and so on and they will have the best human rights and standards of living and education in the world and so on and so on. They will be citizens of a state that sits at the top table. Who's will matters and has influence in the world. who's sportsme win the world cup, who's athletes get the most gold medals. Whose armies are the most numerous.

And for those peoples for whom their national pride, achievements and history are things of great glory....they will be like Texas.

Still flying their own flag under the EU flag. Always moaning about how rich and strong they are. Always crying on about independance but never daring to take it.

That's what my country is going to be. A Texas.

Unless of course they give us a vote. In which case we will be out of the EU. But they won't.

So we will be a good little signed up member of the EU, doing what they tell us, paying more than our share and pretending we can leave if we want to without starting a war.

A bunch of neutered moaners.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Baff1

[vilas 473]

it is "funny" how some people from some countries see that "anyone who wants justice is commie" "anyone who not allow others to make brothel in own house is nationalist"

[Takko 10]

Your view of justice differs from mine.

Your wanted "justice system" is like that: I kill your family and you kill my family.

Just the last one is the right thing to do from your point of view.

At the end, you are a better person when you imprision me for life

instead of killing me, which would be the same as I did.

it is "funny" how some people from some countries

Which countries? Don't forget: Most people around here, are from your

loved countries, such as sweden and france, germany etc.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Takko

[Commando84 0]

I think anyone could leave the EU, but the economical trade bonuses ect. is probably to important for anyone to leave the EU, Only reason to leave the EU is if they push through some of the retarded laws like acta and more surveillance and stuff like that.

But at least I know a party in my country wich stands for civil rights and to preserve democracy.

But imo EU is a nice idea, I mean getting people togheter and work togheter is a basic human thing, sort of like family.

You got your odd uncles and grandparents and there are the rich big sister ect..

[Baff1 0]

No one has ever left the EU.

We've been trying to leave the EU for 2 decades now.

There are plenty of reasons to leave the EU ranging from bad laws to economic benefit.

It's important to recognise that every country within the EU has different needs and wants. Different economies and economic situations. What is good for one country is bad for another and what is good for one country will never be good for every country.

Thanks for your kind offer, but I already have a family. Turning my back on it to become a member of your family instead doesn't sit well with me after all they have done for us in the past. It's not that I don't like your family you understand, it's just that I grew up with my family. They share my name. We spend Christmas together.

It should not be lost on you that the idea of the EU as a giant commune where every one is working together and the rich helping out their poor cousins is not the idea it was created for. It'as not the reason people joined or the purpose of the instituion they joined when they did so.

That originally people joined an EU that had an entirely different "idea".

In fact we didn't ever join the EU at all. We joined the EC.

How do you leave an institution you never even joined?!

Edited March 1, 2010 by Baff1

[seba1976 98]

No one has ever left the EU.

We've been trying to leave the EU for 2 decades now.

....

Turning my back on it to become a member of your family instead doesn't sit well with me after all they have done for us in the past.

I'm curious, which country are you from? Forgive me if that is obvious for Europeans (I'm not.)

[vilas 473]

Baff1 we generally have problems in EU

today scientist, sociologist PhD told some things in one very-intelectual program:

- Helsinki Found activity and "human rights" made situation that teenagers wear t-shirts "i fuck police in the ass" (HWDP = dick in policeman ass), today policeman told young man not to drink, later they with group wanted revenge on him, and group of 16 years old tried to rob a gun from policeman, but he was not armed, he was beaten by group of 16 years, something which "under communism" was unthinkable :(

- politics and politicians crisis - that all parties act the same, do the same

so no matter what party you will choose - all are similar in behavior, program and lies

example from Polish political scene:

party A, B, C - before voting "we move back troops from Iraq" "we wanna build more flats and equip hospitals" "we must protect family and employee"

after election party A, B, C "we decided to give more man to war" "we cannot spend money on social care so much, we must spend it on war" "we decided to make more fluent employment politics, so it will be easier to fire man if company not need him"

pathetic that EVERY party says A before election, and says B when it is elected (in many cases B is opposite to A)

sociologist said that "EU democracy is in big crisis, cause almost all political parties do exactly the same and they are different only by name of party, in facts not even by program and instead of fighting for voters demands, they deal with each other to employee their clerks everywhere"

you can vote for man who says "we will do X, we will not do Y" and after he says "we must do Y, we can't do X"

most of parties looks like "we will support most rich businessmen and f*** the rest (after elections)"

Edited March 3, 2010 by vilas

[Takko 10]

which "under communism" was unthinkable

Right, he would have been beaten by his superior

[vilas 473]

Right, he would have been beaten by his superior

hooligans deserve being beaten

if someone not acts in respectful way to others, he must be taught it

for some people Christian rule "love others as yourself" is enough to understand "i cannot steal, i cannot beat, i cannot hurt other person, cause he will feel unhappy, cause he worked hard for his car, clock, mobile, bike, mp3 ", for other persons you must use baton to put this rule to his head cause they not understand anything except fear and power and punishment

those young trash not understood that when policeman say "not drink here alcohol" , they wanted to "punish" policeman for saying "please don't drink here"

all this shit that buy clothes "HWDP" ( http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/7607/z7607854X.jpg ) all this shit that listen to 50-cent and "gangsta rap" should be treated by baton to make them obey and follow society rules

if someone wanna be "gangsta" (and thinks that he has right to steal, rape, beat others, shoot to others, rob others, mug others) , let he die

better to have "violent police and strict law" than "violent teenagers on street"

if you use word "WE" does it mean that you identify with thieves, burglars ??? do you steal from old ladies their purses ? do you break people windows by wine bottles after footbal match ?

you used word WE not THEY

if yes than it would be fully understandable your all "liberal" opinions posts after my posts

Edited March 5, 2010 by vilas

[Baff1 0]

I'm curious, which country are you from? Forgive me if that is obvious for Europeans (I'm not.)

I'm from England Mr.

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

you can vote for man who says "we will do X, we will not do Y" and after he says "we must do Y, we can't do X"

most of parties looks like "we will support most rich businessmen and f*** the rest (after elections)"

It's the same story all over.

However the support of businessmen over "the rest" is a good thing.

Just as you would support the police over a thug, this is not primarily an issue of human equality.

While I agree there needs to be a balance between the two to maintain social cohesion; at the end of the day the guy smart enough and motivated enough to get a business going is of greater importance to society than the man who does not.

He does more good for society than the man who does not.

He has more power and that power can be exerted as political influence to greater facilitate the creation of wealth.

In America they all rile at the lobby system, in which rich people or consortiums of people can use their wealth to bribe the democratic system.

And yet it works. They are the perhaps richest nation on the planet with the perhaps the highest standard of living on the planet.

That might not be what your own country needs right now, maybe for Poland the balance is out and needs redress, I can't say.

But the basic underlying concept is good.

We favour business and industry over the individual because, well, it provides for a lot more than just one person obviously. It is a social endeavour.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Baff1

[vilas 473]

you know, "lobby" "corporation" is in our eyes something wrong, cause not equal, we see "lobby" as we seen in past communist party, NSDAP etc. for me "lobby corporation" is thing killing democracy

regarding "However the support of businessmen over "the rest" is a good thing."

it depends what it means

in PL it means "lower tax for rich (and allowances), higher tax for poor (lack of allowance),

longer work/job time, less rights for worker"

or carrying about big business (west corporations) and small shop, small business in troubles

example : some foreign supermarkets get some very good allowances , while small shops get serious kick

my friend owned small local shop with vegetables and i heard how much troubles he get while C*** get tax allowances and public transport made bus-stops specially to make people get to supermarket easy in center of city

in west many rich people did their success by hard work, in my country not and it makes difference

so such allowance will cause that usual Kowalski will work 10 hours instead of 9 , and he will be easier to be fired and his boss will have fourth Lexus and gold clock for 10 000

while usual Kowalski won't relief from tax his small child that goes to school and need money for books

big boss of company will get tax free fuel for his Lexus (no VAT) while Kowalski will get higher VAT

He does more good for society than the man who does not.

he does harm and like vampire - drink our blood

cause we work hard and we get... smaller percentage than western worker

in 2002 before we joined EU and before big Polish emigration, we worked for 150-250 EU, while businesmen had few houses

why ?

because "if you not like working 13 hours i will take other one who will be thankfull, we have over 20% of unemployment"

guy who owned our printing house (ex communist officer) than had 2 000 000 of PLN year ( 500 000 Eu)

when i was working in private company, my record was 7-20 for 849 PLN to hand, 849 PLN - it is 200 EUro

and 45% of graduated had no job, so i had to be "happy" of fact that "i have anything to eat"

20 000 Poles commited suicide because of economical reasons 1993-2003, in 1994 it was 54% of suicides record in the world

cause "rich" meant in Poland "whore, gangsta, polician, corrupted judge, thief, fraud of ex communist officer who get ex-state owned plant during "privatisation" "

in your country people worked to build factory, in my - some ex special service officers get such things in 1989-1991 "privatization" for very symbolic small money

ex-KGB became "business owners" cause you as usual man won't get "concession to activity" or credit in bank in early 90s

in your country people becoming rich by generations (grandpa, father, son..) in my country big fortunes appeared in 5 years (how is it possible)

all was built (1945-1989) by "nation" and small group stolen and "owned" it after so called "communism collapse"

tell me how is it possible that in country when "everyone was equal" after 3 years someone has big factory / plant and in 6 years 3 houses abroad and sale agent between state raw materials flow ???

Edited March 8, 2010 by vilas

[Baff1 0]

No mate, he does "harm" like someone who works harder than the next man.

No one was ever equal. Equality is an ideal, not a practicality.

Ideally everyone on the planet should be rich and never need to work.

Ideals are all well and good, but i'm not a teenage schoolboy anymore. (More's the pity).

All people aren't equal.

Some people are stupid, some people are lazy, some people are lucky.

You don't deserve the same pay as the next man just because you were born. This is not equality.

Equality is when you have the same opportunity as the next man. the same "opportunity" to earn that pay.

I live in a country with equality.

We are not all rich.

We do not all have the same jobs.

We don't all get paid the same money for doing the same jobs.

But anyone of us could be prime minister. Anyone of us cab get the education needed to become a businessman. Anyone of us can save the money needed to start a corporation.

99.9% of us of course, don't.

And a good many of us cry on about the injustice of it all rather than accept that our own failings are result of our own shortcomings. This is human nature.

And while you may not get as much pay as the western workers, perhaps it is not them you are competing with, perhaps it is the eastern workers and you are getting a lot more pay than them for doing a lot less work than them; which is why your companies are failing?

Just a thought.

Considering you have such high unemployment, why are you so down on people who create jobs for your workforce?

Is Poland really that much more corrupt a society than the rest of the world?

I have a Lexus. I've owned businesses. I pay more tax than anyone else. Not less tax. Not no tax. A lot more tax. In a typical economy, 5% of the workforce contribute 90% of the tax revenues.

And that 5% is not the poorest 5%, it is the richest. The bosses, the managers, the owners.

We call this the pyramid structure of society.

In a typical capitalist society the bulk of all tax revenue gathered is "corporation tax". Not the individual contributions of private citizens. For the most part the tax contributions of private citizens does not pay for their individual % share of the nations tax burden.

On 90% of all citizens the state makes a net loss.

So I don't know about Poland, maybe what you are saying is true, but it doesn't sound like it. It's not a viewpoint I am finding natural/easy to believe in. The maths doesn't sound good. Why is Poland the only country in history that bucks this trend?

The balance issues between small and large businesses, shop owners for example is an obvious one.

The human cost of one supermarket is maybe the loss of many small shops. Less people employed overall.

But the unseen human benefit is the thousands of customers who now get cheaper goods. Who are all now personally richer.

Ultimately it's a free market dynamic. No one is forcing you all to buy cheap goods. If you want to pay more to support small businesses, you may. It's just that in gerneral, people don't. They all want to help the little mum and dad stores until it actually comes down to it. When the time comes to put their own cash money down, it's mass produced Chinese goods they want, sold in a superstore.

This is freedom. The freedom from poverty.

I used to own a small villiage shop that is being put out of business by the supermarket. I still shop there, but mostly I use the supermarket.

There are always winners and losers in every system. Which makes each system subjective to the people living in it depending on whether they personally have won or lost.

In 80's Britain the power of the unions was finally beaten. For most us of this was fantastic news, but for those in subsidised jobs or those in jobs of nationally blackmailable importance this was a total tragedy and disaster. Entire towns losing their job. Entire regions of unemployment.

I understand the importance the unions played in delivering improved work conditions during the industrial revolution here, but things has got out of balance. The good the Unions was doing had become greatly outweighed by the detriment.

People who lost their jobs because of this or whose families lost their jobs because of this can be expected to feel the opposite way. The nation as a whole however has prospered for it.

Economies can be different and different at different times. Is Poland a gulag of slave labour and worker exploitation by the corrupt? I'd be the last to know.

One thing is for sure, if it is, more profitable corporations are still the answer. You won't get foreign corporations investing in Poland with their foreign working conditions if all you are trying to do is tax the shit out of them. You need to offer them lower taxes than your rivals if you want them to bring their jobs, wealth and working conditions to you.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Baff1

[vilas 473]

in our economy it looks other way

15% of state budget is from PIT tax

few years ago there were 3 groups

ca. 94-95% people pay first group,ca. 3-4 % second ca. 2 % third

richest payed 25%of money

but it is PIT, businesman doesn't pay PIT straight, they have other law on taxes some as manager-contract , some in "contract of work" , not "full-time"

it is complicated to prescribe it

The human cost of one supermarket is maybe the loss of many small shops. Less people employed overall.

and this i see as wrong

Ultimately it's a free market dynamic. No one is forcing you all to buy cheap goods. If you want to pay more to support small businesses, you may. It's just that in gerneral people don't.

how support when half of them bankrupted because of supermarket ?

when supermarket took market (customers) it raised prices and now digital camera costs 10% more in Media Markt than in small Photo-shop

t's mass produced Chinese goods they want sold in a superstore.

we should stop Chinese products to protect our places of work

maybe what you are saying is true, but it doesn't sound like it.

it is true, if you had time to study some resume of some businesmen... you would find one root, communist intel or son of someone from such-like service

it is also true that in small towns people earn so small that internet and PC is "big money" for them and they don't write here

if average sale mediana is ca. 2000 ZLOTY gross/1400 netto (350 EU) than what can be level of life ?

in Poland digital camera cost 10% more than in west / USA

so we have sometimes prices bigger than you and ... 350 EU, people buy clothes in second-hand < it is against human dignity to buy second-hand clothes :(

it very wrong

You need to offer them lower taxes than your rivals

it is unfair, everyone should have the same start, not "foreign better"

national should have better cause "made in here, born here"

and things should belong to "out nation" not foreigners, cause foreigner won't care about "nation when needed"

there must be independence from world-economy waves that secures that country can carry on, when rest have problems

not "all sold to foreigners hands" :(

Edited March 8, 2010 by vilas

[Baff1 0]

What has fair got to do with anything?

Life is unfair.

Cat's eat mice.

Mice should be born as big as cats.

Boo hoo.

Protectionism is certainly one way for an economy that is having difficulty competing to go.

But if your workers all want the same wages as western workers, then those people on 350 EU won't be able to afford their home produced goods.

Putting your prices up doesn't make anything cheaper.

What it does do is reduce competion in the marketplace; give polish workers any impetus to provide cheap goods and labour at all.

And in thi way the unions strangle the people. Suffocate them and live parasitically over them.

You see they take away the customers rights in deference to workers rights. And that's bad for everyone.

If I can't buy what I need to survive from anyone but you, then you can charge what you like and I will have to pay it. I have no position to bargain from.

And if I do something you don't like or say something you don't like, you can go on strike. And then everyone must fo as you say and you run the country.

No thanks. I prefer the mafia.

The supermarket does not bankrupt half the local clientele. This is inflamatory nonsense. It bankrupts it's competiton. So unless half of the people in any polish villiage all sell groceries for living, you've lost the plot.

We all understand the danger and horror of supermarkets mate. But I think you've managed to confuse them with Satan by mistake. I'm joking with you of course, but your wild overestimation of their economic significance left me with nothing to take seriously.

15% of the state tax budget is PIT.

Not 85%.

So Poland is no different from anywhere else.

I can't workout from your writing who pays what % of the PIT, but rest assured PIT covers only 15% of the budget. No one paying PIT is paying their way. That isn't the tax revenue that is supporting your government; it is a tiny fraction of it only.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Baff1

[vilas 473]

we should fight for "fair" it was reason for all revolution, for Solidarity, for all idealists believing that we must fight for "fair"

"fair, truth, freedom, independence, owning own house" are main reasons to fight and destroy all "unfair, lies, dependence, others possessing you home"

Cat's eat mice.

many people call it "evil primitive jungle law"

[DenisRUS 10]

we should fight for "fair" it was reason for all revolution

+10000000 goood , goooooood !

[vilas 473]

Baff you say about equal chances for start (you say opportunity) it is also for me important

thats why i believe that education should be free

cause it would depend of man - what will he gain

comparing to addons : BIS given us all Oxygen, we have notepad in OS, we all can do addons

one make good , others not and it is "fair"

but in some countries "only some has link to tools" and than it is not fair ;)

regarding "fight for fair" - it make us human being

animal HAS NO MORALITY, human - should have morality to be human and fight for moral causes

otherwise person will be only human-shaped, not human, animals have instincts , some have basic IQ to catch mouse, but have no morality

[Baff1 0]

So if a country has more tools than your country and this is not fair, are you going to have an international revolution?

Are you going to invade us?

What about the countries with less than yours?

I don't remember you being very willing to help out the Ukrainians?

You clearly have no intrest in giving the Chinese a fair chance....

Sorry but your morality is the same as the cat or mouses morality.

It's unfair when you are in the mouses position, but when you are in the cat's it's all well and good.

Animals are every bit as moral as humans. We look after our own first. Cat, dog, monkey, human.

I can't trust people with "higher morals". I closely associate them with the word "evil".

Edited March 8, 2010 by Baff1

[maturin 12]

99.9% of us of course, don't.

And a good many of us cry on about the injustice of it all rather than accept that our own failings are result of our own shortcomings.

I think you may be a schoolboy from another era. The 1880s, let's say.

[vilas 473]

Baff i say that every country should state somekind of "equal start" for teenagers to get education and earn money within

China and Ukraine is "unfair competition" as Poles working in UK that take away job of UK citizens, who could demand more money (or work less hours) for such job if not cheap competition

cheap worker who takes away job of "people who live here in this place" is other issue and "right to go to free college and later university (and get good job and become middle class) of children born here" is other issue

do not mix those 2 things

country should give its citizens some profits (as reword for taxes), one countries spent taxes on hospitals and universities, other on rulers jets and palaces (so called banana-republics), other on wars and rifles

people should shape their rulers to spend more on universities, hospitals, culture, roads, railway, environment protection than on rifles and tanks

child who used chance that he was given can build something good

child who not get chance will be next criminal

Edited March 8, 2010 by vilas

[NoRailgunner 0]

Baff1 its called hunger if animals searching + eating other animals. They don't kill other animals just because they like it or they "think" its better without them or they gain profit. Next time don't humanize animals! ;)

[seba1976 98]

Vilas, you sound like a self-righteous bastard, would you describe yourself as one? Try to stop looking who's fault is it, and start accepting the world as it is, with no need for any change or effort from your part. You said you're not poor, so maybe you feel somehow obligated to suffer for the poor ones... that sounds a lot like guilt for me. Just my 2 cents.

[vilas 473]

i was poor, i was homeless nearly 2 years in past with my mother when we lost all due to one accident

and being poor i could not type here on PC, poor people not have PC and internet cause it costs, but i know what is to be hungry and have second-hand cloths, had no TV, when all class has color TV and Video,

and i hate capitalism

till 1997 (when i was 20) we had no TV in home , we had only old poor radio, while some people in class had mobile car

if not being born durring cold war - we would not have flat, which was given by state, free education (university for which i not payed single cent)

on studies guy had mobiles, PC and ... i had to go to PC-room in university, cause i had no PC in home

Edited March 9, 2010 by vilas