The Iraq thread 3

[hellfish6 7]

The new Iraqi Army shopping list:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/iraq-corps1.htm

[Pathy 0]

I shall call it mini-me

Heh, US is building themselves a miniture version of thier own army is seems....

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]The new Iraqi Army shopping list:

Interesting giving them hundreds of M1A2s (I guess they will not include DU rounds) and fifty AH-64s..  Putting good faith in them. Seems like they are creating a even more superior Iraqi military (defense force).

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]The new Iraqi Army shopping list:

Interesting giving them hundreds of M1A2s (I guess they will not include DU rounds) and fifty AH-64s..  Putting good faith in them. Seems like they are creating a even more superior Iraqi military (defense force).

Giving them?

Quote[/b] ]This assessment assumes that Iraq will be able to resume normal oil production by the beginning of 2004 and military spending will be structured in a way to allow for maximum resources going toward infrastructure reconstruction. Assuming 22 billion dollars in oil revenues with 5 per cent available for defense allocation, Iraq would be able to allocate approximately 1.1 billion per year on defense. Procurement structuring would likely take place over five to ten years with an increasing in defense allocation to coincide with completion of infrastructure projects.

Hehe, the first line is funny "This assessment assumes that Iraq will be able to resume normal oil production by the beginning of 2004".

But anyway, you're not giving them anything. You are selling them that stuff. Or better to say, you are buying it for them with their money. This of course eliminating any chance of them choosing any non-US hardware.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]But anyway, you're not giving them anything. You are selling them that stuff. Or better to say, you are buying it for them with their money. This of course eliminating any chance of them choosing any non-US hardware.

Here is couple of reasons why they are not allowing them to get non-US hardware.

Quote[/b] ]

Likewise, if left to its own accord Iraq would likely turn to other available systems on the open arms sales markets, most likely Russian, or Russian derivative arms that the Iraqi military already has experience using.

Quote[/b] ]

The use of US systems would require significant training and allow the US to have continued military influence in the country long after significant US units had departed.

Quote[/b] ]

Concerns over Iraq eventually turning these weapons against its neighbors should be limited when one considers that, as in Saudi Arabia, significant dependence on US technical advisors would exist to maintain the most sophisticated weapons systems.

Russian hardware= baby stuff/easy

U.S. hardware= how do you turn it on?/hard

[Winters 1]

The new Iraqi Army shopping list:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/iraq-corps1.htm

They want 100 of my (M110) old Arty pieces, maybe i should go and train them on how to use it

[red oct 2]

is it just me, or does anybody else feel a little uneasy about giving the Iraqi army newer US army equimpment? i mean sure those old M60's aren't much today they are a dime a dozen, but a Abrams tank? A M109A6 Palidin Howitzer? Apache Attack choppers? why not just toss in a couple Nimitz carriers and some F18's while we are at it. i sure hope that the new government doesnt get it self toppled after we give them this shiny new stuff. we don't even know whether or not the Iraqi's will be willing to get along w/ Isreal

[denoir 0]

Here is couple of reasons why they are not allowing them to get non-US hardware.

Absolutely, but let's not forget the $$$ insead of rubles or €€€'s

There are a couple of problems however, as I see it. The plan was the Iraqis to be so happy to be liberated that they would out of pure gratitude buy stuff from the US. As the situation developed a bit differently, we have a brand new game. For political reasons the so called 'transfer of power' has been accelerated. Although it is mostly symbolic, it will at least affect what the Iraqis expect to be able to decide. Purchasing weapons might very well one of those things. And should the coalition object on that patricular point, it is going to make them look very bad. Objectivly today Russian hardware gives literally most bang for the buck. Which would be fairly bad for the US military industry which has been promised all those nice contracts mentioned in the article.

It'll be interesting to see how this develops. It's quite possible that these plans have been scrapped already, but you never know.

[MLF 0]

at least we aint selling them Chally 2's.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Iraq’s Governing Council is refusing to accept the US puppet 81-year-old former foreign minister under Sadam and Baath party official, Adnan Pachachi. He is sigularly disliked by most Iraqis for his links to Sadam.

Most of Governing Council favors the current head, civil engineer Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer, for president.

Quote[/b] ]Coalition spokesman Dan Senor denied the Americans were showing favoritism toward Pachachi. However, a member of the council speaking to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity said that lead U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer and Brahimi were exerting “massive pressure†in support of Pachachi.

Bremer and President Bush’s special envoy, Robert Blackwill, attended part of a five-hour council meeting Sunday and urged the members not to vote on the presidency, apparently fearing that al-Yawer would win, council sources told The AP.

The Americans warned that if the council went ahead and voted, the United States might not recognize the choice, the sources said. Bremer has the final say on all policy decisions in Iraq.

The coalition-backed Baghdad daily Al-Sabah reported Monday that al-Yawer had turned down a Bremer request to take himself out of the running. Al-Yawer insisted that the selection must be made by the council, the newspaper said. There was no independent confirmation of the report.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5084420/

Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer has been critical of Paul Bremmer especialy with regard to Bremmer's policy of leaving Iraq's borders wide open to criminals and terrorists.

Quote[/b] ]Pachachi was instrumental in overseeing the drafting of an interim constitution that U.S. officials have hailed as among the most progressive and democratic in the Arab world. The document was adopted despite reservations by Shiite council members and over the objections by the country’s most influential Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani.

Quote[/b] ]Al-Yawer critical of U.S.

During a recent television interview, al-Yawer, who routinely wears traditional Arab robes and head gear, was sharply critical of the American occupation, blaming U.S. ineptness for the deteriorating law and order.

“We blame the United States 100 percent for the security in Iraq,†said al-Yawer, who belongs to one of the largest tribes in the region and has the support of Shiite and Kurdish council members. “They occupied the country, disbanded the security agencies and for 10 months left Iraq’s borders open for anyone to come in without a visa or even a passport.â€

Al-Yawer, who is in his 40s, has also denounced violence against American and other coalition forces.

Kind Regards Walker

[Lucretius 0]

at least we aint selling them Chally 2's.

lol... Visions of the iraqi army trundling all over the middle east in challenger II's

[Frisbee 0]

Russian hardware= baby stuff/easy

U.S. hardware= how do you turn it on?/hard

Eh?

I would presume a Russian artillery piece or a Russian jet to be using the same complex/simple procedures to operate.

You're bound to get better deals if the companies know you have alternatives, at least that is how I would act were I an arms dealer.

"Yeah, we'll sell those F15's at the original cost, even they're just a tad old and suck compared to russian alternatives."

Wasn't this whole 'liberating' thing not applicable for a free market?

I couldn't make up from your post if you were being sarcastic or not, I just assumed you weren't

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Eh?

I would presume a Russian artillery piece or a Russian jet to be using the same complex/simple procedures to operate.

You're bound to get better deals if the companies know you have alternatives, at least that is how I would act were I an arms dealer.

"Yeah, we'll sell those F15's at the original cost, even they're just a tad old and suck compared to russian alternatives."

Wasn't this whole 'liberating' thing not applicable for a free market?

I couldn't make up from your post if you were being sarcastic or not, I just assumed you weren't

Taken from link:

Quote[/b] ]

Likewise, if left to its own accord Iraq would likely turn to other available systems on the open arms sales markets, most likely Russian, or Russian derivative arms that the Iraqi military already has experience using.

Quote[/b] ]

Concerns over Iraq eventually turning these weapons against its neighbors should be limited when one considers that, as in Saudi Arabia, significant dependence on US technical advisors would exist to maintain the most sophisticated weapons systems.

Keeping them in check so they will not become "offensive" military...

[walker 0]

Hi All

In Iraq Ghazi Yawar was chosen as interim President after former Sadam man Adnan Pachachi stepped down for personal reasons. Pachachi was seen by many on the council as a US puppet.

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, June 1 -- Ghazi Yawar, a U.S. educated tribal sheik, was chosen Tuesday as the president of the interim government of Iraq. The choices for the remaining top positions -- carefully apportioned among Iraq's different ethnic and religious groups -- will be announced later in the day

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5421-2004Jun1.html

Kind Regards Walker

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Explosions Reportedly Kill 10 in Baghdad

9 minutes ago

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A car bomb exploded Tuesday outside the Baghdad office of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, located near headquarters of the U.S.-run coalition. Arab language television stations reported that about 10 people died in the blast.

In the northern city of Beiji, another car bomb exploded near the U.S. military base and an Interior Ministry official told The Associated Press that 11 Iraqis were killed and 26 wounded.

The blast occurred Tuesday around outside the gates of the 1st Infantry Division's forward operating base, Summerall, in Beiji, which is 155 miles north of Baghdad, press spokesman Capt. Bill Coppernoll said. He could not confirm the number of casualties.

In Baghdad, ambulances raced to the scene of the blast and U.S. troops kept people back. Television footage showed debris and a charred wall of a building.

Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya quoted police as saying about 10 people were killed. But the information could not immediately be confirmed.

The PUK is seen as being close to the Americans. Under the leadership of Jalal Talabani, the party represented one of the main anti-Saddam forces on Iraqi soil after the Gulf War (news - web sites). Fighters from the party backed American forces in last year's invasion.

Talabani holds a seat on the Governing Council and held the council's rotating presidency in November.

The bomb was one of several blasts heard in the capital just after reports circulated that Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer, current head of the Iraqi Governing Council, had been selected as president of the interim government set to take power June 30.

Another blast, followed by gunfire, sent a mushroom cloud 100 feet billowing into the dusty air hanging over the city. Coalition aircraft could be heard flying over Baghdad.

The blast near the PUK offices was heard shortly afterward.

A huge cloud of smoke bellows over central Baghdad, Iraq

Tuesday, June 1, 2004 after a strong blast was heard in the

center of the city. Preliminary reports on Arab television

stations reported 10 dead in the explosion. (AP Photo/Anja

Niedringhaus)

[Gollum1 0]

The "shopping list" truly surprised me, Apaches, MRLS, M1A2...very advanced equipment.

[ozanzac 0]

The "shopping list" truly surprised me, Apaches, MRLS, M1A2...very advanced equipment.

As it did I.

500 Abrams!

IIRC, America used about a quarter of that number, if not less for the invasion!

[bn880 5]

What's the matter? Sounds like good business for the states. Don't worry, Abrams tanks are no threat if they are not backed with air superiority or even fog of war. 500 Abrams could be destroyed in a few days by a military like the US or Russia.

[Ironsight 1]

The "shopping list" truly surprised me, Apaches, MRLS, M1A2...very advanced equipment.

What's the point of equiping the Iraqi army with such modern equipment it's not that they have to defend themselves (US will back them up)

Hardware: Use old Russian hardware and modernised US Vietnam-era equipment.

Helicopters: Give them Cobra's and Huey's

Aircraft: F16's and SU-25's

I think if you choose this stuff you also have a respectable army.

But this is off course good business for the US

[theavonlady 2]

From the Iraq The Model blogger brothers, some of you just love to hate:

Quote[/b] ]Tuesday, June 01, 2004

The dogs bark but the caravan keeps moving.

It seems that things are going against the will of the terrorists and the totalitarian regimes. The interim government is now a fact they have to accept and deal with and this is better for them than the naive nervous reactions these countries and organizations show in response to the events in the Iraqi field; their moves became tense and stumbling recently, and here I recall the reactions of Hizbollah and Iran after the clashes in Najaf; they were trying to become more Iraqi than we are by their pathetic demonstrations, as if they were given the permission from Iraqis to speak on behalf of them, when, in fact Iraqis were watching what was happening with silent approval despite the fact that the coalition troops were fighting in a city that is considered holy for many Iraqis. Iraqis proved that they’ll support any action that can help them get rid of the remnants of tyranny wherever that might take place.

Today comes another powerful strike to terrorism and the neighboring countries, when the process of forming the transitional government went very smoothly and peacefully. there was a competition between two men; Pachachi who seemed to be favored by the Americans (and by me as well) and Al-Yawer who apparently had the approval and support from most of the GC members and other political powers but Pachachi withdrew in the last moment, the move that proves my point that he was the best man for the job.

Still, Al-Yawer has many points that qualify him for the job; he’s got the support of the Shammar tribe which is one of the largest and strongest ones in Iraq that mainly reside in the west and north-west parts of Iraq which may play a major role in stabilizing that area which was always a big source of troubles. And now as one of 'their sons' is on top of the coming government they will certainly stand by his side and help in preventing the sneaking of terrorists through the western borders of Iraq.

Also the man doesn't have any significant affiliation to any religious or ethnic group which will help making him more acceptable for both, Sheiát and Sunni as well as the Kurds and other minorities.

Another point is that this man was the candidate of the Iraqis not the CPA which indicates that Iraqis had more effect in this choice than what the major media suggested.

There appears to be no rejection to the new government in the Iraqi street at all but some Iraqis expect this government to find magical solutions for all the current hardships, which is far from being a realistic expectation of course, but the good aspect is that Iraqis have shown their will to accept the change and to move forwards on the road to accomplish the mission until democracy is established.

Some might say that having a Sheikh as the new president of Iraq is a step backwards that will bring back the rule of the tribal laws but this is not accurate because the tribes do not want to rule the country; they just want to be represented in the government and have their voice heard which is a legitimate right of course, also it's a good idea because the tribes are the only power that can confront the dangerous and radical religious parties.

It's worth mentioning that Yawer, although carries the family name of a Sheikh and he's dressed like a Sheikh, is a modernized man with a high scientific degree. Also, having a cabinet that includes five female ministers should tell us that the tribes couldn't/didn't want to force their law, and at the same time carries a message to the Islamists that the interim government will provide equal opportunities to all segments of the Iraqi people.

I believe the difficulties we are going to face are very serious and could prove to be even harder than the previous ones, as the enemies of the change in the world are so many and so united against us and only by going on with our plans we can force them to abandon their dreams of bringing tyranny back to Iraq.

I believe that this move is a corner stone in the process of building the new model of democracy in the Middle East, IRAQ.

By Mohammed.

BTW, anyone else here read the National Geographic June edition article about Iraqi Shi'ites?

[Placebo 28]

BTW, anyone else here read the National Geographic June edition article about Iraqi Shi'ites?

I only look at the pictures sorry

[theavonlady 2]

BTW, anyone else here read the National Geographic June edition article about Iraqi Shi'ites?

I only look at the pictures sorry  

I'm very impressed! Applying your moderator skills in everyday life!

[theavonlady 2]

New tales from the desert: Ali Blab-Blab and the Forty Encryption Keys!

Quote[/b] ]Officials: Chalabi Gave Secrets to Iran

1 hour, 40 minutes ago

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The FBI is investigating who in the U.S. government leaked information to former Iraqi exile Ahmad Chalabi that made its way into the hands of the Iranian government, potentially damaging American efforts to monitor Tehran's activities, government officials said Wednesday.

The officials, who would speak only on condition of anonymity because the information remained classified, said the U.S. government has evidence that Chalabi or his followers told Iran that Washington had cracked some of it secret codes for transmitting sensitive information.

The official said that a raid last month on Chalabi's home inside Iraq was conducted to determine how the leader of the Iraqi National Congress got the information and whom he shared it with. The FBI is already trying to determine if someone in the U.S. government gave the information to Chalabi, which would be a criminal offense for leaking highly classified material, the official said.

CBS News initially reported Tuesday that Chalabi had told an Iranian intelligence official that the United States had cracked its codes, allowing U.S. agents to read Iran's secret communications. Revealing such information would expose one of the United States' most important sources of information about Iran.

Following the broadcast report, The New York Times, Los Angeles Times and The Washington Post followed with similar stories, all quoting anonymous U.S. intelligence officials.

Appearing on NBC"s "Today" show Wednesday, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said: "I actually can't comment on this story. I don't know about its veracity or not. I'm sure if there is anything there, it will be investigated."

The New York and Los Angeles papers said they had learned some details of widely reported U.S. assertions last month that Chalabi had given classified material to Iran, but had agreed not to publish those details at the request of U.S. officials who said to do so would endanger an ongoing investigation.

The two papers said those requests to withhold the information they had gathered were withdrawn Tuesday when other news accounts began appearing.

A CIA official declined to comment on the reports Tuesday night.

American officials quoted in the news reports said Chalabi told the Baghdad chief of the Iranian spy service that the United States was reading its communications and that the Iranian spy described the conversation in a message to Tehran, which was intercepted by U.S. intelligence.

The New York Times account said Iranians in Tehran then sent a bogus message to Baghdad purportedly disclosing the location of an important weapons site, in an apparent attempt to test whether what they were hearing from Chalabi was true.

The idea was that if the United States was able to intercept such transmissions, Americans would react by going to the weapons site. They intercepted the message, according to the Times, but did not take the bait by going to the weapons site.

Chalabi reportedly told the Iranian he had he had gotten the information from an American who had been drunk.

FBI agents were reported to be questioning Defense Department officials in an effort to find out who gave such information to Chalabi.

Chalabi, a member of the Shiite Islamic sect to which the majority of Iranians and Iraqis belong, once was a favorite of Pentagon officials.

He had provided intelligence to the Bush administration about weapons of mass destruction, which was used to justify the U.S. war against Iraq, but his information came under major criticism after no weapons were found.

The CIA has long been suspicious of Chalabi's INC, but he had maintained strong supporters in other government agencies.

Until last month, his organization was on the U.S. government payroll, receiving roughly $340,000 a month from the Defense Department for intelligence under a specific authorization from Congress.

While refusing to discuss the new intelligence report, Rice did talk in general terms about U.S. ties to Chalabi.

"We had a relationship with Mr. Chalabi and his INC (Iraqi National Congress) during a time when the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 put a high premium on trying to find a way to overthrow Saddam Hussein and to bring about regime change in Iraq," she told NBC, "and there were a number of organizations with which the United States had a relationship, including the INC. "

But Rice also said that President Bush "made very clear that the United States had no (opposition) force, so to speak, that it was backing. ..made very clear that Mr. Chalabi would have to make his way on the basis of his relationship with the Iraqi people — and that's still the case today."

Rice said she was "quite certain that the United States was absolutely vigilant in the way it should have been. ... We did have a relationship and it has been strained of late."

[Akira 0]

It finally happened. We all knew it would be a matter of time before he came out and said it....

Bush Likens Terror War To WW2

Quote[/b] ]AIR FORCE ACADEMY, Colo. (AP) - President Bush compared the fight against terrorists to the struggle against tyranny that forced World War II, telling new Air Force officers Wednesday that the United States and its allies can win the battle by bringing freedom and reform to the Middle East.

"Our goal, the goal of this generation, is the same" as it was in World War II, Bush said. "We will secure our nation and defend the peace through the forward march of freedom."

Bush told 981 graduates of the Air Force Academy that they will be joining a war whose central front is Iraq and the broader Middle East.

The graduates wore dress uniforms of white pants, blue tunics and gold sashes around their waists. Bush spoke in the academy's football stadium - at more than 7,000 feet above sea level - under partly cloudy and breezy skies.

"Just as events in Europe determined the outcome of the Cold War," he said, "events in the Middle East will set the course of our current struggle."

"If that region is abandoned to dictators and terrorists, it will be a constant source of violence and alarm, exporting killers of increasing destructive power to attack America and other free nations," Bush said. "If that region grows in democracy and prosperity and hope, the terrorist movement will lose its sponsors, lose its recruits and lose the festering grievances that keep terrorists in business."

Attorney General John Ashcroft and Rep. Heather Wilson, R-N.M., an Air Force Academy graduate, were among the officials who joined Bush on stage.

Bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq, Bush has argued, will undercut the stagnation and despair that feeds the extremist ideologies of al-Qaida and its terrorist allies.

In Washington, Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, proposed a "Middle East 21st-century trust" as an alternative to Bush's Mideast initiative. The trust would use donations from wealthy countries to make grants aimed at economic and political reform in the Mideast. Lugar said the trust would be modeled on programs like the Global Aids Fund, the G-8 Africa Action Plan and the U.S. Millennium Challenge Account.

Lugar said his proposal incorporates many of the principles of Bush's Mideast initiative but emphasizes the participation of many nations, including wealthy Mideast countries like Saudi Arabia. And, the recipient nations themselves would develop specific programs so as to bring about a "restructuring of the region from within," Lugar said.

Defending his focus, Bush said, "Some who call themselves realists question whether the spread of democracy in the Middle East should be any concern of ours. But the realists in this case have lost contact with a fundamental reality: America has always been less secure when freedom is in retreat; America is always more secure when freedom is on the march."

The president's trip to Colorado came after he voiced his support Tuesday for the interim Iraqi government taking shape before the scheduled June 30 transfer of political power from the U.S.-run Coalition Provisional Authority. Bush praised the newly chosen prime minister, Iyad Allawi, and president, Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer, as part of democracy's vanguard in Iraq.

The new Air Force officers will enter a military strained by an occupation of Iraq that has become increasingly violent in the past two months. Bush and other administration officials say they expect the violence to continue, even after the caretaker government takes over in July.

Plans call for elections in Iraq by January to form a fully independent Iraqi government. The U.S.-led military coalition in Iraq will remain largely in control of Iraqi security until then, and Pentagon officials say they expect to keep about 135,000 American troops in Iraq until at least the end of 2005.

Bush this week is repeating his pledges to stay the course in Iraq despite the surging violence and the failure so far to neutralize anti-American fighters ranging from Sunni extremists around Baghdad to followers of a radical Shiite cleric in southern Iraq.

Colorado is important to Bush for more than the Air Force Academy. Bush wants the nine electoral votes from a state he won four years ago, 51 percent to 42 percent for Al Gore. Republicans also want to keep the Senate seat of retiring Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell.

[bn880 5]

It is quite obvious he takes everyone to be complete and utter idiots doesn't he. What a moron...