The Iraq thread 3

[Akira 0]

So if you do bash the French you are clearly open to some US bashing, I am oh so happy to oblige.

Well, you started it.

So where ya been?

And how do you feel about Iraq and what is going on?

[billybob2002 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040604/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

Sistani says "yes"..

Quote[/b] ]

Shiite Leader Accepts Iraq Interim Gov't

2 hours, 1 minute ago  

By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq (news - web sites)'s most influential Shiite figure gave tacit endorsement to the U.N.-appointed government Thursday, breaking nearly three months of silence over the country's political future.

Quote[/b] ]

Al-Sistani criticized the makeup of the Cabinet, saying it excluded large segments of society and political forces. However, his support was critical to public acceptance of the U.N.-appointed government because of al-Sistani's influence over Iraqi Shiites, believed to comprise about 60 percent of the country's 25 million people

Quote[/b] ]

Al-Sistani's objections to U.S. policies in Iraq have derailed at least two U.S. political blueprints for the country's political future and bolstered the Iranian-born cleric's image as the defender of the Shiite community.

And people (random) say that CPA/United States is doing what they want to do....

Quote[/b] ]

Industry Minister Hajim al-Hassani, a Sunni, told Al-Jazeera television that the government was not concerned about approval "from outside Iraq."

That is a big F-you.

Quote[/b] ]

In Iran, which has an overwhelming Shiite majority, supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei described Allawi's government as America's "lackey" and said the United States has failed in bringing reforms to Iraq after the ouster of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).

I find that funny and sad coming from Iran...

[FSPilot 0]

So if you do bash the French you are clearly open to some US bashing, I am oh so happy to oblige.

Well, you started it.

So where ya been?

And how do you feel about Iraq and what is going on?

Off in college. I've got a computer but I'm busy as hell getting drunk and trying to get laid (I'm going to run for president too!).

Anyway, I think we could be handling things in Iraq better. I'm not a general and I don't know the details of everything so I can't say what I'd be doing differently than the generals. But if I were a prison guard I wouldn't be taking naked pictures of prisoners, I wouldn't be torturing them either. And If I were the president I wouldn't keep Saddam's pistol in my office as a trophy when I'm trying to make this seem like it's not personal.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Off in college.  I've got a computer but I'm busy as hell getting drunk and trying to get laid (I'm going to run for president too!).

sounds like my college yrs, except i got laid.

[FSPilot 0]

Off in college.  I've got a computer but I'm busy as hell getting drunk and trying to get laid (I'm going to run for president too!).

sounds like my college yrs, except i got laid.

You didn't go to college in the middle of Kansas did you?

[quicksand 0]

And more on the WMD...

Quote[/b] ]'US knew Iraq was WMD free'

Iraqi nuclear scientist Dr Imad Khadduri has told Aljazeera.net he does not believe any ''errors'' were made regarding WMD intelligence.

Dr Khadduri, a former senior Iraqi nuclear scientist who worked for the Iraqi nuclear programme from 1968 to 1998, said there was a deliberate media blackout of evidence proving Iraq did not possess WMD, and that to redress the balance he had written a book in English to have his witness testimony made available to the world.

In 1997 Iraq delivered a report to UN weapons inspectors stating that Iraq's civil and military nuclear programme was brought to a halt. When UN inspectors left Iraq in 1998 there was sufficient evidence that Iraq was free from non-conventional weapons, according to Dr Khadduri.

"I was one of the people involved in writing a detailed report in 1997 about Iraq's civil and military nuclear programme.

"We included in the report every detail needed by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to verify that Iraq's nuclear programme was suspended," Khadduri said.

He said Iraq's chemical and biological weapons capability and its nuclear weapons programme were destroyed in the 1991 Gulf war.

 

"Following the defection of Hussein Kamil, the godfather of Iraq's non-conventional weapons programme, to Jordan in 1995, he made it clear to Ralph Ekeus, head of the UN inspection team UNSCOM and US officials, that stockpiles of Iraq's biological and chemical weapons were destroyed on his orders," Khadduri said.

"They never revealed such information, because it did not serve their war agenda."

Khadduri said even the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (Unmovic) dismissed evidence that clearly indicated Iraq was free from WMD.

"The Iraqi government allowed Iraqi officials and army officials, who were in charge of destroying stockpiles of WMD after the Gulf war in 1991, to give their testimonies to Unmovic, but the UN inspectors simply dismissed their evidence," he said.

Dr Khadduri said Iraq was free from WMD, but that Western and Israeli intelligence communities were not prepared to accept Iraq would have actually taken such a step.

Intelligence errors

Dr Khadduri believes that the US was very particular in who it listened to regardless of whether or not they enjoyed any credibility.

"The US administration was keen to promote Khidhr Hamza's allegations, nicknamed as the father of Saddam's bomb by Western media... the truth is he was fired from the nuclear programme in 1987, just months after he was assigned to head an Iraqi team devoted to planning a nuclear bomb.

"Hamza retired from the Iraqi Atomic Commission in 1989 and left Iraq for Libya in 1994. He simply knows nothing."

Khadduri said he tried to get his voice heard before the war, to correct many misleading claims alleged by the US administration and its Iraqi backers.

"I worked in the Iraqi nuclear programme for 30 years until I left Iraq in 1998, and there are many honest Iraqi scientists who lived outside Iraq years before the war. They were not approached; no one listened to them," he said.

"It was a deliberate marginalising of reliable sources, of the people involved directly in Iraq's WMD programme."

He said Iraqi ex-opposition figures have been silent about information they provided before the war.

"Where are those Iraqis who bragged of delivering valuable information about Iraq's WMD? Why don't they just lead the US army in Iraq to the place where the alleged WMD are hidden?"

Mostly nothing new as it`s painfully obvious by now what "WMD case" existed.But the part that sparked my attention was that US were basing their WMD case on a guy who was fired before GW1 when Iraq started disarming.

So in fact it wasn`t the incompentence of gathering intelligence but a deliberate missmanegement of facts which is a nice way of saying blunt lies.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Mostly nothing new as it`s painfully obvious by now what "WMD case" existed.But the part that sparked my attention was that US were basing their WMD case on a guy who was fired before GW1 when Iraq started disarming.

So in fact it wasn`t the incompentence of gathering intelligence but a deliberate missmanegement of facts which is a nice way of saying blunt lies.

One question:

What was found a couple of weeks ago.... (The shell they tested (and confirmed) was not marked. Blix even admitted a lot of shit was missing in his report(s).)

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]One question:

What was found a couple of weeks ago.... (The shell they tested (and confirmed) was not marked. Blix even admitted a lot of shit was missing.)

Answer: the WMD case wasn`t about one tiny shell with sarin gas leftovers but about WMD labs,45 minutes threat,a WMD system capable of attacking neighbours at anytime and even USA,with just a few years needed to expand to nuclear capability and about finger point accuracy in finding the purpoted labs.

[denoir 0]

One question:

What was found a couple of weeks ago....

They found some leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war. And that is really not surprising. Iraq had extensive destruction to its military infrastructure in three wars. It is not at all surprising that records were destroyed. They found leftovers of chemical weapons in Maryland, and I would hope that the US keeps better control of their records than a country that has been at war three times the last 20 years.

One antiquated shell here and there does not in any way equal the clear and present danger of WMD that Bush and his merry men claimed to exist. Saddam was supposed to have tons and tons of current stuff and have fully active programs etc

I'm a bit surprised though that the far right is insisting that the found shell was evidence of WMD. I mean if it was, then the Iraq war was truly a failure. The purpose given for the war was to prevent terrorists from getting their hands on WMD. And what did we have here? Insurgents a.k.a terrorists using a chem warhead to attack Americans.... Mission accomplished?

Anyway, I think we can all agree on that the 'justification' for war was far more extravagant than a couple of 20 year old artillery shells. The validity of the WMD claims (and directly related, Saddams danger) was shown to be false when the first US troops stepped into Iraq. The rationale for the invasion was that Saddam was a man dangerous to the US and dangerous to the region because of his WMD. We could see even then that not even when he was overthrown and lost his power, did he use any unconventional weapons. So we could already then conclude that Saddam wasn't as dangerous as Bush said.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Off in college.  I've got a computer but I'm busy as hell getting drunk and trying to get laid (I'm going to run for president too!).

sounds like my college yrs, except i got laid.

You didn't go to college in the middle of Kansas did you?

that's why it's good to be a liberal going to a liberal university.

anyways,

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/04/iraq.UN/index.html

Quote[/b] ]NEW YORK (CNN) -- Coalition troops need to remain in Iraq after power is handed over at the end of the month -- but the new leadership must be consulted about major military operations, Iraq's foreign minister says.

The interim government should also have a say in when the troops will leave, Hoshyar Zebari said in an appearance before the U.N. Security Council.

"Any premature departure of international troops would lead to chaos and the real possibility of a civil war in Iraq," Zebari said.

"This would cause a humanitarian crisis and provide a foothold for terrorists to launch their evil campaign in our country and beyond our borders."

However, in a later interview with CNN's Paula Zahn, Zebari said the new government does not expect to instruct American or coalition troops on what they should or shouldn't do, "especially when they are in harm's way."

The new government "needs to be consulted and its views need to be taken into consideration," when it comes to major military offensives that could have serious political or security repercussions, Zebari said.

"We never used the word veto at all. But we said we must have a say."

"We know our country better than American, British [or] Polish troops there, and we know how best to handle the security," he said.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]One antiquated shell here and there does not in any way equal the clear and present danger of WMD that Bush and his merry men claimed to exist. Saddam was supposed to have tons and tons of current stuff and have fully active programs etc

One "old" shell that was not properly used to be effective.

Quote[/b] ]They found some leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war. And that is really not surprising. Iraq had extensive destruction to its military infrastructure in three wars. It is not at all surprising that records were destroyed. They found leftovers of chemical weapons in Maryland, and I would hope that the US keeps better control of their records than a country that has been at war three times the last 20 years.

It did not have markings (like the "old" mustard they found) for being a "gas shell" but looked liked a ordinary shell. Blend it in with art. shells and they disappear. Also, there are hell of a lot weapons depots in Iraq, and if the shells were not marked, they could of not remeber were they put it.

Quote[/b] ]Answer: the WMD case wasn`t about one tiny shell with sarin gas leftovers but about WMD labs,45 minutes threat,a WMD system capable of attacking neighbours at anytime and even USA,with just a few years needed to expand to nuclear capability and about finger point accuracy in finding the purpoted labs

A lot of shit is missing that Saddam did not account for (i.e. more than 500 (higher) shells missing...).

3:53AM..........                        

[bn880 5]

Gas(or some toxins) in artillery shells is not exactly a well delivered WMD programme, even if he had 2 million shells it's no real threat much greater than say MLRS or a 2000LB cruise missile etc.

[DarkLight 0]

Come on guys!!!

They found a shell, isn't it cleaaar?! Nuke them back to the stone age!!!

Considering the fact that the US government NEVER lies about this kind of stuff, we can say that those evil things living in the east are puuuuure evil!

[FSPilot 0]

This brings up a point I wanted to make.  Even if we did find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, complete with infrastructure and scientists with white powder on their hands, some people would still be going on about how the US lied and this is all just for oil.

Now I'm not saying that what they found proves that Iraq had WMDs all along, or that this IED was what we were looking for.  Just making a point that they're just as hard-headed as we are.

[bn880 5]

And it would be right to do that, if someone has indeed lied like this, then even IF they were accidentally right they should still pay for their treason to their country and for the deaths of thousands.

Oh yeah, things are great in 2004.

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121783,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Iraqi Police Nab Al Qaeda-Linked Terrorist

Friday, June 04, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Iraqi police forces have detained Umar Baziyani (search), an associate of terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, U.S. Central Command announced Friday.

Quote[/b] ]

Baziyani is known to have ties to several extremist terrorist groups in Iraq and is believed to be responsible for the death and injury of scores of innocent Iraqi citizens, according to Centcom. Authorities say Baziyani is also wanted in connection with anti-coalition activities.

Quote[/b] ]

"Al-Zarqawi and his terror will be stopped, God willing," Allawi said in a translated version of his address, adding that Iraq will introduce entry visas for that country. "Terrorism is affecting Arab and foreign investment into Iraq and denying people the chance to work -- it's spreading unemployment."

[Akira 0]

This brings up a point I wanted to make. Even if we did find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, complete with infrastructure and scientists with white powder on their hands, some people would still be going on about how the US lied and this is all just for oil.

Now I'm not saying that what they found proves that Iraq had WMDs all along, or that this IED was what we were looking for. Just making a point that they're just as hard-headed as we are.

While I won't dispute the fact that there are some har heads on both sides....should we have caught them red handed it still wouldn't have excused the WAY in which we caught them....

[DarkLight 0]

True true

IF they'll ever find real warheads that were really hidden, then 85% of the world wouldn't believe it anyway... But i guess that's kinda logical after all that happened.

If i was the US government i'd do a lot to save my ass, maybe even lie... and the rest of the world knows that as well...

You know, our police has this thing (i think it's the same in other countries too), i dunno what it's called in english... But it's a paper that you need to be allowed to search a suspect his house for evidence...

Without that paper the police aren't allowed to search the suspect's house...

If they DO enter the house without permission and if they find evidence, then in theory that evidence cannot be used... So if a cop walks into your house and finds a bag of let's say marihuana, then he won't be able to use it as evidence against you... At least if he doesn't have that permission to enter your house...

Kinda reminds me of the Iraq situation that's going on right now...

Even if they find something, as some ppl said too, the way how you found it wasn't how it should've gone...

Don't you see that just invading a country isn't a good solution? Just like a cop entering a house without permission is a dumb cop...

[Gollum1 0]

You know, our police has this thing (i think it's the same in other countries too), i dunno what it's called in english... But it's a paper that you need to be allowed to search a suspect his house for evidence...

Without that paper the police aren't allowed to search the suspect's house...

Search warrant.

[DarkLight 0]

You know, our police has this thing (i think it's the same in other countries too), i dunno what it's called in english... But it's a paper that you need to be allowed to search a suspect his house for evidence...

Without that paper the police aren't allowed to search the suspect's house...

Search warrant.

Yeah that

[bn880 5]

AKA PITA

Permission to Inspect and go Through Assets

[Pathy 0]

Well lets not forget they did try to find WMD legitimately but for years Saddam blocked the weapons inspectors.....Yes i know you anti war people will say "but but but....they were suceeding in the few months before war"....well just remember how long before that Saddam was blocking them, then (prepares to be corrected on this point) he expelled them (i think).....call that co-operation?

[Gordy 0]

Two blackwater civilian employees died in an convoy attack yesterday. They were Polish.

[bucket man 2]

Well lets not forget they did try to find WMD legitimately but for years Saddam blocked the weapons inspectors.....Yes i know you anti war people will say "but but but....they were suceeding in the few months before war"....well just remember how long before that Saddam was blocking them, then (prepares to be corrected on this point) he expelled them (i think).....call that co-operation?

And reason he blocked them was that some of the inspectors were spying for USA and not just the WMD but regular military bases and similar stuff. They brobably were CIA spooks.

Then when he finally gave all evidence that they infact didnt have WMD's it didnt please Bush anymore.

Its similar to me saying to someone "prove that you didnt steal my bicycle two years ago".

Its imbossible to prove especially if the guy whos bike was stolen doesnt even want to hear the evidence because he already made up his mind.

[Pathy 0]

So you are accusing the UN weapons inspectors of spying for the USA?