The Iraq thread 3

[DarkLight 0]

I saw some footage yesterday of an american apache somewhere in Iraq.

They saw a car, driving around in the middle of nowhere, really it looked like a field or something.  

The car stops and these guys get out, one of them runs away with something long in his hands.  

Now this something long could've been anything, a tube, a gun, maybe a poster of britney spears.  Anywaaaaayzzzz, the guy ran for like 15m and then threw away the long thing.

The apache was actually filming this, you heared the commander's voice saying something like "he's got something in his hands, ti looks like a gun to me"

Now of course, this was an ideal situation for the great allied soldiers fighting for justice!  If they would send some troops over there and let them arrest these Iraqi men everything could be solved just like that.

If they did have a gun, they could arrest them, torture them until they give enough information about the weapon and then... well... then do with them what they want.  

If what they threw away wasn't a gun, then there's no problem at all.

Now let me tell you that there was no way that these guys could possibly escape.  So just arresting them is what any normal person would do.

But instead, what does the commander decide... of course, SHOOT THEM AAAALL!

What the fuck is wrong with this crappy world?

He just mowed down 3 men, for no reason at all!

"hmmm they look suspicious, let's kill them!  Hell, it's not like it's myyy father, it's not like iiiii give a fuck about any of those dots on the ground!"

I am truly disgusted by any human being that acts in such a way.  If they fire at you, sure, you can fire back.  But these men weren't firing, it wasn't even sure that they had a gun!

And if it was a gun, then they could've arrested them instead of killing them!!!!!

It's like those airplanes bombing human beings because they were firing in the air, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK? THAT THEYRE TRYING TO MOW DOWN YOUR AIRPLANE WITH AN AK??!!

Sometimes i truly wish i was never born in such a fucked up world.

I fucking hate all of you grown ups and your dumb stupid politics....

Grmblz...

Free the iraqi ppl my assss

This operation has been the dumbest piece of militairy shit that i've seen in like a billion gazillion years...

And no, i don't care if that number really exists or not

[Gollum1 0]

Darklight, that video is a few months old IIRC and was discussed for many pages when it was released.

[SpongeBob 0]

That footage was released in early January, and the footage was taken in early December outside Baghdad.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

oh darklight, this footage has already been discussed several times on this forum.

The problem, as I read it from the huge feedback from several forums is that we realy dont know the circumstances. Surely their action can be judged negatively... but we realy dont know where, why, how!

[MLF 0]

IIRC near by US troops had been attacked near by, also its war, i doubt they could have approached and just arrested them. it it was not just "shoot them all", he follwed the ROE.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/22/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Dozens of people killed in a U.S. attack in the Iraqi desert Wednesday were attending a high-level meeting of foreign fighters, not a wedding, and photos shown to reporters in Baghdad support that belief, according to the senior coalition military spokesman.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said six women were among the dead, but there is no evidence any children died in the raid early Wednesday near the Syrian border.

Coalition officials have said that as many as 40 people were killed in the attack.

He said that video showing dead children killed was actually recorded in Ramadi, far from the attack scene.

An Iraqi man interviewed by The Associated Press as the bodies of women and children were unloaded from a truck for burial said they had gathered for a wedding celebration when they were attacked.

"There may have been some kind of celebration," Kimmitt said. "Bad people have celebrations too. Bad people have parties too."

Kimmitt said that troops did not find anything -- such as a wedding tent, gifts, musical instruments, decorations or leftover food -- that would indicate that a wedding had been held.

Most of the men there were of military age, and there were no elders present to indicate a family event, he said.

What was found, he said, indicated the building was used as a waypoint for foreign fighters crossing into Iraq from Syria to battle the coalition.

"The building seemed to be somewhat of a dormitory," Kimmitt said. "You had over 300 sets of bedding gear in it. You had a tremendous number of pre-packaged clothing -- apparently about a hundred sets of pre-packaged clothing; (It is) expected that when foreign fighters come in from other countries, they come to this location, they change their clothes into typical Iraqi clothing sets."

At Saturday's briefing for reporters in Baghdad, Kimmitt showed photos of what he said were binoculars designed for adjusting artillery fire, battery packs suitable for improvised explosive devices, several terrorist training manuals, medical gear, fake ID cards and ID card-making machines, passports and telephone numbers to other countries, including Afghanistan and Sudan.

None of the men killed in the raid carried ID cards or wallets, he said. "We feel that that was an indicator that this was a high risk meeting of high level anti-coalition forces. There was a tremendous number of incriminating pocket litter, a lot of telephone numbers to foreign countries, Afghanistan, Sudan and a number of others."

Kimmitt said while the location was purported to be a sheep ranch, there was no evidence of ranching activities and no livestock.

He said that the coalition would continue to have an open mind about what might have happened, and he conceded there were some inconsistencies still to be worked out.

"The more that we look at intelligence, more we dig in, more we are persuaded no wedding," Kimmitt said.

"We had significant, multiple sources of intelligence" before ordering the raid, he said.

now that the word is out, i bet there will be plenty of other gatherings of insurgents containing those ceremonial items.

[Pathy 0]

Yes lets not forget Coalition troops have to operate within ROE. Which is an interesting point actually, what IS current US/Coalition ROE?

[denoir 0]

Yes lets not forget Coalition troops have to operate within ROE. Which is an interesting point actually, what IS current US/Coalition ROE?

Fire unless fired upon?  

Quote[/b] ]He said that the coalition would continue to have an open mind about what might have happened, and he conceded there were some inconsistencies still to be worked out.

"The more that we look at intelligence, more we dig in, more we are persuaded no wedding," Kimmitt said.

Perhaps it was a wedding between foreign fighters?  

Quote[/b] ]"We had significant, multiple sources of intelligence" before ordering the raid, he said.

I think I remember...I've heard that before...somewhere.. What could that be? Maybe something from the Afghanistan war? Does anybody else here by any chance remember any similar statements made in the past?  

[Tex -USMC- 0]

You are a master of sublinimable messages, Denoir

[denoir 0]

@ 2004,07:22)]You are a master of sublinimable messages, Denoir

My mother used to say that but I always dismissed it as blatant favouritism  

Anyhow, let's take a look at what's happening in the sunny republic of Iraq:

Coalition forces 'seek immunity' [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]The coalition in Iraq wants its troops to remain immune from prosecution by Iraqis after the handover of power, it is reported.

Creating a sovereign Iraq should mean forces become subject to Iraqi laws.

...

Karbala calm as militia withdraws [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

Calm has returned to the Iraqi city of Karbala, after fighters loyal to the radical Shia cleric, Moqtada Sadr, withdrew from the centre.

The holy Iraqi city has seen heavy fighting between the militia and coalition forces over the past month.

Mr Sadr said his forces would withdraw only if US-led troops led first, but the Americans say they have merely moved their troops, not pulled out.

Hehe, I like that last one. "We have not pulled out. We have just moved our troops...um..away from there..um"  

And in related news:

Bush fell off his bike [bBC]´

Quote[/b] ]

George Bush fell off his mountain bike on Saturday, grazing his chin, upper lip, nose, both knees, and his right hand, a White House spokesman said.

The president was 16 miles (26km) into a 17-mile ride on his ranch when he hit some loose soil while riding downhill.

In addition to a military aide and Secret Service agent, Mr Bush was with his doctor, who treated him on the spot and has pronounced him "fine".

...

It is not the president's first accident.

In January 2002, he grazed his cheek after choking on a pretzel and fainting.

And in June 2003, he fell off his hi-tech Segway scooter.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]George Bush fell off his mountain bike on Saturday, grazing his chin, upper lip, nose, both knees, and his right hand, a White House spokesman said.

The president was 16 miles (26km) into a 17-mile ride on his ranch when he hit some loose soil while riding downhill.

In addition to a military aide and Secret Service agent, Mr Bush was with his doctor, who treated him on the spot and has pronounced him "fine".

LOOOL, I just read about it in Aftenposten and the worst thing is that he wore a helmet (well you should really! ) and a mouth guard ? ? ? ?  HAHAHAHA

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]LOOOL, I just read about it in Aftenposten and the worst thing is that he wore a helmet (well you should really! ) and a mouth guard ? ? ? ?  HAHAHAHA

The guy is just trying to protect his teeth...no need to make fun of that...George "Safety Guy" Bush.....

[denoir 0]

George, George, George of the jungle

Strong as he can be

Ahhh

Watch out for that tree!

[Acro 0]

LOL  

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]George Bush fell off his mountain bike on Saturday, grazing his chin, upper lip, nose, both knees, and his right hand, a White House spokesman said.

The president was 16 miles (26km) into a 17-mile ride on his ranch when he hit some loose soil while riding downhill.

In addition to a military aide and Secret Service agent, Mr Bush was with his doctor, who treated him on the spot and has pronounced him "fine".

LOOOL, I just read about it in Aftenposten and the worst thing is that he wore a helmet (well you should really! ) and a mouth guard ? ? ? ?  HAHAHAHA

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media...._ap.jpg

~ post reported ~

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>wounds</span>, carnage,  and other disgusting/explicit images.

 

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]George Bush fell off his mountain bike on Saturday, grazing his chin, upper lip, nose, both knees, and his right hand, a White House spokesman said.

Is it just me, or is that an awful lot of injury sustained for a 'falling off your bike' incident.

But, I would have payed good money to have seen that.

[turms 0]

I bet that Powell and George were in a fistfight

[quicksand 0]

Back to the polls..

Iraq's rebel cleric gains surge in popularity

Quote[/b] ]An Iraqi poll to be released next week shows a surge in the popularity of Moqtada al-Sadr, the radical young Shia cleric fighting coalition forces, and suggests nearly nine out of 10 Iraqis see US troops as occupiers and not liberators or peacekeepers.

The poll was conducted by the one-year-old Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies, which is considered reliable enough for the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority to have submitted questions to be included in the study.

Although the results of any poll in Iraq's traumatised society should be taken with caution, the survey highlights the difficulties facing the US authorities in Baghdad as they confront Mr Sadr, who launched an insurgency against the US-led occupation last month.

Conducted before the Abu Ghraib prisoners' scandal, it also suggests a severe erosion of American credibility even before Iraqis were confronted with images of torture at the hands of US soldiers.

Saadoun Duleimi, head of the centre, said more than half of a representative sample - comprising 1,600 Shia, Sunni Arabs and Kurds polled in all Iraq's main regions - wanted coalition troops to leave Iraq. This compares with about 20 per cent in an October survey. Some 88 per cent of respondents said they now regarded coalition forces in Iraq as occupiers.

"Iraqis always contrast American actions with American promises and there's now a wide gap in credibility," said Mr Duleimi, who belongs to one of the country's big Sunni tribes. "In this climate, fighting has given Moqtada credibility because he's the only Iraqi man who stood up against the occupation forces."

The US authorities in Baghdad face an uphill battle to persuade Iraqis that the transfer of sovereignty on June 30 will mark the end of the US occupation. The removal of US troops was cited in the poll as a more urgent issue than the country's formal status.

Respondents saw Mr Sadr as Iraq's second most influential figure after Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the country's most senior Shia cleric. Some 32 per cent of respondents said they strongly supported Mr Sadr and another 36 per cent somewhat supported him.

Ibrahim Jaafari, head of the Shia Islamist Daawa party and a member of the governing council, came next on the list of influential Iraqis. Among council members, Adnan Pachachi, the Sunni former foreign minister, came some distance behind Mr Jaafari. Mr Pachachi is regarded as the apparent favourite for the ceremonial post of president when a caretaker government takes over.

I would have never expected this,Kimmitt briefings must`ve gotten to my head.

68% of Iraqis are supportive of Al-Sadr,equalling 15 million Iraqis a bit much for a bunch of thugs wouldn`t you say.Even more surprisingly it counts for more then the entire Shia population(60-65%)

15 million Iraqis also want US soldiers out of their country while 20 million see them as occupying forces.

Can anyone else see here a pattern,and all this before the Abu Gharib scandal  

It doesn`t take a genious to have a picture of how the poll would be standing now after the Abu Gharib scandal and the damage of the shrines in Kufa and Najaf.The message is plain and simple:"Get the feck out of our country."

So do they listen to the Iraqis and will they actually "get out of the country if Iraqis ask them to"?<a bit of rethorical and useless question since the answer is self evident>

[denoir 0]

Video Captures Iraq Wedding Party [FOX News/AP]

Quote[/b] ]RAMADI, Iraq  — The bride arrives in a white pickup truck and is quickly ushered into a house by a group of women. Outside, men recline on brightly colored silk pillows, relaxing on the carpeted floor of a large goat-hair tent as boys dance to tribal songs.

The videotape obtained Sunday by Associated Press Television News captures a wedding party that survivors say was later attacked by U.S. planes early Wednesday, killing up to 45 people. The dead included the cameraman, Yasser Shawkat Abdullah, hired to record the festivities, which ended Tuesday night before the planes struck.

The U.S. military says it is investigating the attack, which took place in the village of Mogr el-Deeb about five miles from the Syrian border, but that all evidence so far indicates the target was a safehouse for foreign fighters.

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search) said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.

The wedding videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car -- decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.

An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video -- which runs for several hours.

APTN also traveled to Mogr el-Deeb, 250 miles west of Ramadi (search), the day after the attack to film what the survivors said was the wedding site. A devastated building and remnants of the tent, pots and pans could be seen, along with bits of what appeared to be the remnants of ordnance, one of which bore the marking "ATU-35," similar to those on U.S. bombs.

A water tanker truck can be seen in both the video shot by APTN and the wedding tape obtained from a cousin of the groom.

The singing and dancing seems to go on forever at the all-male tent set up in the garden of the host, Rikad Nayef, for the wedding of his son, Azhad, and the bride Rutbah Sabah. The men later move to the porch when darkness falls, apparently taking advantage of the cool night weather. Children, mainly boys, sit on their fathers' laps; men smoke an Arab water pipe, finger worry beads and chat with one another. It looks like a typical, gender-segregated tribal desert wedding.

As expected, women are out of sight -- but according to survivors, they danced to the music of Hussein al-Ali, a popular Baghdad wedding singer hired for the festivities. Al-Ali was buried in Baghdad (search) on Thursday.

Prominently displayed on the videotape was a stocky man with close-cropped hair playing an electric organ. Another tape, filmed a day later in Ramadi and obtained by APTN, showed the musician lying dead in a burial shroud -- his face clearly visible and wearing the same tan shirt as he wore when he performed.

As the musicians played, young men milled about, most dressed in traditional white robes. Young men swayed in tribal dances to the monotonous tones of traditional Arabic music. Two children -- a boy and a girl -- held hands, dancing and smiling. Women are rarely filmed at such occasions, and they appear only in distant glimpses.

Kimmitt said U.S. troops who swept through the area found rifles, machine guns, foreign passports, bedding, syringes and other items that suggested the site was used by foreigners infiltrating from Syria.

The videotape showed no weapons, although they are common among rural Iraqis.

Kimmitt has denied finding evidence that any children died in the raid although a "handful of women" -- perhaps four to six -- were "caught up in the engagement."

"They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft," he told reporters Friday.

However, an AP reporter obtained names of at least 10 children who relatives said had died. Bodies of five of them were filmed by APTN when the survivors took them to Ramadi for burial Wednesday. Iraqi officials said at least 13 children were killed.

Four days after the attack, the memories of the survivors remain painful -- as are their injuries.

Haleema Shihab, 32, one of the three wives of Rikad Nayef, said that as the first bombs fell, she grabbed her seven-month old son, Yousef, and clutching the hands of her five-year-old son, Hamza, started running. Her 15-year-old son, Ali, sprinted alongside her. They managed to run for several yards when she fell -- her leg fractured.

"Hamza was yelling, 'mommy,"' Shihab, recalled. "Ali said he was hurt and that he was bleeding. That's the last time I heard him." Then another shell fell and injured Shihab's left arm.

"Hamza fell from my hand and was gone. Only Yousef stayed in my arms. Ali had been hit and was killed. I couldn't go back," she said from her hospital bed in Ramadi. Her arm was in a cast.

She and her stepdaughter, Iqbal -- who had caught up with her -- hid in a bomb crater. "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise," Shihab said.

Soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked her to see if she was alive, she said.

"I pretended I was dead so he wouldn't kill me," said Shihab. She said the soldier was laughing. When Yousef cried, the soldier said: "'No, stop," said Shihab.

Fourteen-year-old Moza, Shihab's stepdaughter, lies on another bed of the hospital room. She was hurt in the leg and cries. Her relatives haven't told her yet that her mother, Sumaya, is dead.

"I fear she's dead," Moza said of her mother. "I'm worried about her."

Moza was sleeping on one side of the porch next to her sisters Siham, Subha and Zohra while her mother slept on the other end. There were many others on the porch, her cousins, stepmothers and other female relatives.

When the first shell fell, Moza and her sisters, Subha, Fatima and Siham ran off together. Moza was holding Subha's hand.

"I don't know where Fatima and my mom were. Siham got hit. She died. I saw Zohra's head gone. I lost consciousness," said Moza, covering her mouth with the end of her headscarf.

Her sister Iqbal, lay in pain on the bed next to her. Her other sister, Subha, was on the upper floor of the hospital, in the same room with two-year-Khoolood. Her small body was bandaged and a tube inserted in her side drained her liver.

Her ankle was bandaged. A red ribbon was tied to her curly hair. Only she and her older brother, Faisal, survived from their immediate family. Her parents and four sisters and brothers were all killed.

In all, 27 members of Rikad Nayef's extended family died -- most of them children and women, the family said.

[ozanzac 0]

It's atrocious that such a mistake could be made.

Of all things to bomb. A wedding party.....

That's really f***ed up.

Quote[/b] ]Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

Is it just me, or is that remark extremely childish.

IMO, the really bad people are the ones who bomb unarmed civilians at harmless wedding ceremonys.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I saw the wedding video on UK news and the AP article is correct.

This seems to show either a failure in the US JAG investigation into this incident or that CENTCOM are are not telling the truth.

Either has massive repercusions for JAG investigating the upper levels of the US Chain of Command with regard to prisoner abuse because this smacks of a cover of ordered from the top.

Today George Bush Jnr. must be asked if he ordered a cover up of this murderous attack on a wedding.

PS Cant get to the foxnews site (censored bandwidth overrun?) but the article is available on other news sources.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5045772/

Quote[/b] ]Soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked her to see if she was alive, she said.

“I pretended I was dead so he wouldn’t kill me,†said Shihab. She said the soldier was laughing. When Yousef cried, the soldier said: “’No, stop,†said Shihab.

Fourteen-year-old Moza, Shihab’s stepdaughter, lies on another bed of the hospital room. She was hurt in the leg and cries. Her relatives haven’t told her yet that her mother, Sumaya, is dead. “I fear she’s dead,†Moza said of her mother. “I’m worried about her.â€

When I read things like that this looks to me like another Mie Lai massacre.

Fuming Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

The war on Iraq is "screwed up" according to the highly respected former head of CENTCOM

Quote[/b] ]“There has been poor strategic thinking in this,†says Zinni. “There has been poor operational planning and execution on the ground. And to think that we are going to ‘stay the course,’ the course is headed over Niagara Falls. I think it's time to change course a little bit, or at least hold somebody responsible for putting you on this course. Because it's been a failure.â€

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/21/60minutes/main618896.shtml

The failure comes from the top George Bush Jnr. must go.

Quote[/b] ]In the book, Zinni writes: "In the lead up to the Iraq war and its later conduct, I saw at a minimum, true dereliction, negligence and irresponsibility, at worse, lying, incompetence and corruption."

“I think there was dereliction in insufficient forces being put on the ground and fully understanding the military dimensions of the plan. I think there was dereliction in lack of planning,†says Zinni. “The president is owed the finest strategic thinking. He is owed the finest operational planning. He is owed the finest tactical execution on the ground. … He got the latter. He didn’t get the first two.â€

Those involved in the planning are clearly traitors to the US and they should be put on trial for their crimes.

Seriously angry walker

[Bernadotte 0]

The failure comes from the top George Bush Jnr. must go.

Bush is a stooge, a figurehead, a puppet.  Get rid of him and there's no guarantee that the neoconservative puppeteers behind the scenes will not continue to pedal their vile influence as they did under previous administrations.  For one, I'd much rather see Richard Perle's gang under hot lights for bringing Chalabi et al to such prominence.

Meanwhile, has anyone seen Michael Moore's new film, Farenheit 911?  I'm wondering if he's dared take his attack against TBA much further than the president himself.  I hope so.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Here is the BBC article on the US attack and massacre at the wedding. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3741223.stm

Here is the actual Wedding video

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media...._vi.ram

Kind Regards Walker

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

It's atrocious that such a mistake could be made.

Of all things to bomb. A wedding party.....

That's really f***ed up.

Quote[/b] ]Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

Is it just me, or is that remark extremely childish.

IMO, the really bad people are the ones who bomb unarmed civilians at harmless wedding ceremonys.

Awesome statement. What about saying

"You know killing bad people when they have done something good is like killing good people when they have done something bad"

   

Finally let me add a "very funny" picture for the mainly republican people out there. So funny that I couldnt stop laughing. Hell this is getting sicker and sicker! Mistakes can be made...but then be man enough to admit them, and dont invert the blame because you yourself by NATURE are always right. If one accuses that you are not then he must be anti-american!