The Iraq thread 3

[denoir 0]

Absolutely, I'm not ruling it out. As a matter of fact I'm very surprised no old shells from the Iran/Iraq war has been found so far. Given the damage to Iraq in that war and during the first Gulf War I would find it difficult to believe that they managed to account for all existing shells.

What I'm saying now is that it hasn't been confirmed and so far we've had more than a few false postives. There have been several claims before that in the end turned out to be nothing. All I'm saying is that we have to wait for proper confirmation from a real lab.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]What I'm saying now is that it hasn't been confirmed and so far we've had more than a few false postives. There have been several claims before that in the end turned out to be nothing. All I'm saying is that we have to wait for proper confirmation from a real lab.

I hear what you are saying. Mustard gas was confirmed by a real lab in early may but was not really reported because it was old.

[Akira 0]

I told my self I wasn't going to post in this thread. Oh well, here it goes.

   I'm just wondering, why do any of you even bother blah blah blah

Simple.

Communication. Debate.

Little, if any, real discussion has occured in this thread since the war "ended." (lol...) It's clear that for the past two years, at least, the American public has been takin' it in the a** with no lube thanks to Bush And Company. Now the Iraqi's are the latest recipiants of Bush Love.

Through this "discussion" many have come, gone, and changed sides among other things. I, as I'm sure denoir and Bals will attest, was one of the "hardliners" early. "Iraq is a threat!" I said. "WMD! WMD!" I screamed. "Bush wouldn't just LIE to us!" I assured our European brethren. Whoa boy. My view has changed emmensly since this whole crap fest took off. Not necessarily from this thread alone, but some of the sources cited in the numerous Iraq Threads, leaves one with food for thought. And just turning on the news is enough to wake anyone up. How many grieving parents (on both sides) can one take? How many pictures of mothers screaming (on both sides) can one take?

I'm not sure how long you have been lurking, but I recommend a search on FSPilot's posts. That is what the world is facing this November. Maybe I'm overstating the importance, but I really believe that world stability will be greatly affected by the next election. Really everything could hinge on it.

Anyway, I digress. This thread is good for multiple view points, and the sharing of knowledge and sources on what is really an Earth threatening situation.

BTW...I used plenty of "" cause I know Tex loves em so  

[denoir 0]

Indeed, I second that. I have learned an incredible amount of stuff by debating in this trade. You read up on a lot of things when you look for information to support your position.

There is nothing more valuable to a democratic system than people having informed political opinions. Debates like this are integral in raising awareness of what is going on in the world beyond occasionaly reading the headlines in the news.

And I'm most happy when I encounter heavy opposition to my views because it always ends up with me learning something new. This thread will be worthless when everybody agrees. As long as there are opposing views and new developments it is highly relevant.

I am also proud of the high quality of debate here. A very good culture has developed over the last years where everybody backs up their opinions with sources. And the sources in turn are critically analyzed. It doesn't get much better in terms of quality.

[ebud 18]

Interesting take on the prison scandal

[Billabong81 0]

That is a very interesting take on the situation. That's a good find Ebud.

[Balschoiw 0]

Most Iraqis see U.S. as "occupiers"

Quote[/b] ]Thu 20 May, 2004 09:58

LONDON (Reuters) - Opinion poll results to be released next week show nearly nine out of 10 Iraqis see U.S. forces as occupiers rather than liberators or peacekeepers, the Financial Times has reported.

It quoted the Iraq Centre for Research and Strategic Studies as saying more than half of 1,600 Iraqis polled wanted the troops of the U.S.-led coalition to leave Iraq, compared with about 20 percent in an October survey.

The poll was conducted before photos showing abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops were made public. The newspaper said on Thursday the Centre was considered reliable enough by U.S. officials that they had submitted questions to be used in the poll.

"Iraqis always contrast American actions with American promises and there's now a wide gap in credibility," the newspaper quoted the head of the Centre, Saadoun Duleimi, as saying.

This basically means the coaltion troops have no chance at all anymore to conduct a seriouse approach to the arising anti-coalition sentiments in Iraq. They wasted it.

While Pentagon has some new pics of abuse and torture:

Pentagon finds more prison abuse photos

Image removed for breaching forum rules on graphic images.

US prison guard posing with a man who died in prison.

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Another disc with 24 photographs depicting "apparent abusive acts by U.S. forces" has surfaced in the investigation of mistreatment of Iraqi detainees at a U.S.-run prison near Baghdad, the Pentagon says.

Thirteen of the photographs appeared to be images already seen in the international media, but 11 have not been identified in previous investigations, according to a Pentagon letter to the Senate Armed Services Committee.

"They may not be original or true photographs," Powell Moore, assistant defence secretary for legislative affairs, wrote to the committee.

He said they were given to the Criminal Investigation Command in Baghdad "under circumstances that warranted investigation, including forensic computer evaluation."

Moore said the committee would be told the results of the examination as they become available.

Two photos not previously seen in the media of U.S. soldiers posing with the body of a detainee at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison were shown on U.S. television on Wednesday evening.

In separate photos shown on ABC News, Specialist Sabrina Harmon and Specialist Charles Garner are seen smiling and giving a "thumbs-up" sign over the body of a man identified by ABC as Manacled al-Jammed, an Iraqi who died in U.S. custody at the prison.

ABC reported on its Web site that the photos were taken by Sergeant Charles Frederick, who in e-mails to his family questioned why those responsible for the prisoner's death were not being prosecuted in the same manner that he is.

Frederick, Harmon and Garner are among six U.S. military police facing charges over the abuse of detainees. A seventh soldier, Jeremy Soviets, was sent to jail and dismissed from the Army on Wednesday after pleading guilty in the first abuse trial.

Senator John Warner, a Virginia Republican who chairs the committee, announced at a hearing on the abuses scandal at Abu Ghraib prison earlier in the day that the Pentagon had found another disc of images. But he said he had no other information at that time.

And forces in Iraq surround Chalabi´s house and search it. Wasn´t he the closest ally to the US lately ?

U.S. Troops Surround Chalabi's House

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. soldiers and Iraqi police surrounded the residence of Iraqi politician Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday, and an aide said the troops raided the house ostensibly to search for fugitives.

The aide, Haidar Musawi, accused the Americans of trying to pressure Chalabi, who was a longtime Pentagon (news - web sites) favorite now openly critical of U.S. plans for how much power to transfer to the Iraqis on June 30.

He said the Americans also raided offices of Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress.

"The aim is to put political pressure," Musawi told The Associated Press. "Why is this happening at a time when the government is being formed?"

There was no comment from the U.S. military press office. Police sealed off the residence in the city's fashionable Mansour district and would not allow reporters to approach. At least two Humvees could be seen, with a dozen U.S. troops milling about.

U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, have accused Chalabi of trying to interfere with an investigation into alleged corruption of the U.N.-run oil-for-food program, in which Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s government was allowed to sell oil despite international sanctions to buy food and humanitarian supplies.

Critics allege that former regime officials, in collusion with U.N. figures, skimmed a fortune off the revenues.

Several armed Westerners were also seen, wearing flak vests and using SUVs without license tags — vehicles associated here with U.S. security.

Some people could be seen loading boxes into vehicles, and neighbors said some members of Chalabi's entourage were taken away.

Salem Chalabi, nephew of Ahmad Chalabi and head of the Iraqi war crimes tribunal, said his uncle told him by telephone that Iraqi and American authorities "entered his home and put the guns to his head in a very humiliating way that reminds everyone of the conduct of the former regime."

The younger Chalabi said the reason for the raid was unclear but "they must be afraid of his political movement."

"They came this morning, entered the office of Dr. Ahmad Chalabi and said that they were looking for people," said Abdul Kareem Abbas, an INC official. He said they wanted to make arrests.

The police took personal documents belonging to Chalabi and his computer.

"At the beginning, we tried to resist. But we couldn't because they came with U.S. troops," Abbas said.

Another official, Qaisar Wotwot, said the operation was linked to Chalabi's recent comments demanding full Iraqi control of oil revenues and security after the June 30 transfer of power.

"It's a provocative operation, designed to force Dr. Chalabi to change his political stance," he said.

Another INC official, who refused to give his name, said the raiding party "didn't tell us what they were looking for and they did not show us a search warrant."

 

No one was arrested, he said.

Musawi said the U.S.-Iraqi force surrounded the compound about 10:30 a.m., while Chalabi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, was inside. They told Chalabi's aides that they wanted to search the house for Iraqi National Congress officials wanted by the authorities.

The aides agreed to let one unarmed Iraqi policeman inside to look around.

"The Iraqi police were very embarrassed and said that they (the Americans) ordered them to come and that they didn't know it was Chalabi's house," Musawi said. "The INC is ready to have any impartial and judicial body investigate any accusation against it. There are American parties who have a list of Iraqi personalities that they want arrested to put pressure on the Iraqi political force."

Musawi said the Americans also seized computers from INC offices.

For years, Chalabi's INC had received hundreds of thousands of dollars every month from the Pentagon, in part for intelligence passed along by exiles about Saddam's purported weapons of mass destruction.

Chalabi has come under criticism since large stockpiles of such weapons were never found. Chalabi, a former banker and longtime Iraqi exile, was convicted of fraud in absentia in Jordan in 1992 in a banking scandal and sentenced to 22 years in jail. He has repeatedly denied the charges.

Chalabi has complained recently about U.S. plans to retain control of Iraqi security forces and maintain widespread influence over political institutions after power is transferred from the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority to an Iraqi interim administration at the end of June.

Musawi said Chalabi "had been clear on rejecting incomplete sovereignty....and against having the security portfolio remain in the hands of those who have proved their failure."

Well it´s wither with us or against us... you know the deal already.

It becomes clear now that the US want to blame Chalabi for all the "evidence" Powell presented at the UN. Why the CIA failed to check the reports about mobile weapon labs and other things is beyond my horizon. I mean they started  a war on these reasons. Wouldn´t it have been a necessity to check the "proof" or do they just go for a scapegoat right now ?

You decide.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

From Ebud's article, which I think is total RUBBISH! Another flat-brain american publishing his little candy-worldpicture.

   Those pictures said volumes.  They said "We're your worst fucking nightmare: We're Americans.  Our women are stronger than your men.  Our littlest women will strip naked the strongest men you can muster, and make fun of their puny cocks while enjoying a cigarette.  Our women love to get naked, love sex, and revel in the sexual prowess of their American male partners.  They'll put impotent "men" like you naked on leashes whenever they want.  America is the most powerful country in the world, and guess what? Women control 70% of its money and 100% of its pussy.  What are you going to do about it? Behead some Jewish "contractor"? Fat lot of good that's going to do.  We'll put on some hearings for show, but you know the truth: we'll do whatever we want whenever we want, and we'll have our women do it.  Just for fun. Think we're kidding? Wait 'til you see our beer ads."

This ignorance and arrogance will make some people fall very deep one day. - I hope -

[PAPABEAR_1985 0]

Sick Opinion

[Pathy 0]

Haha yeh, up until that guy started on about what those pictures "really" mean (as quoted), i thought he knew what he was talking about.....then you realise hes just an ignorant guy who THINKS he knows what hes talking about.....

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/20/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. military personnel and Iraqi police Thursday raided the compound of the Iraqi National Congress and the nearby home of Iraqi Governing Council member Ahmed Chalabi.

Chalabi's nephew, Salim Chalabi, said the forces entered his uncle's home, put a gun to Chalabi's head and threatened him.

Describing what his uncle told him, Salim said the forces were "looking for something" and were upset with Chalabi.

The forces cordoned off the Iraqi National Congress headquarters in a separate building nearby, taking guns away from the security there, Salim said.

Chalabi, a Shiite, is a favorite of the Pentagon but is regarded as divisive and untrustworthy by the State Department.

He is believed to have been a source of intelligence about Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, which have not been discovered in the nine months since Saddam's regime fell.

He was also the champion of a plan to rid Iraq of Baath Party influence that has caused rancor among many Iraqis.(Full story)

[Placebo 29]

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage, and other disgusting/explicit images.

Balschoiw what part of you thinks that posting an image of a corpse is acceptable? I don't see how this can result in anything other than a permanent ban (as is usually the case), the text even says it's a corpse so there's no saying it was a mistake or whatever.

[Balschoiw 0]

Hmm I thought that as only his unwounded head was visible and there were no injuries visible it would have been ok. The image was also broadcasted in media, US media.

You see nothing on the pic that classifies this as a dead one and I thought the "real killing" in rules was related to the action of killing. Now I know better, but if you want to please ban me.

[denoir 0]

Since when is it not allowed to post a picture of a corpse? It was not explicit in any way and such pictures have been posted before.

That rule was introduced to prevent people from being ambushed by disgusting pictures. The picture that Bals posted could have been of a sleeping man. Calling it a violation would be an abuse of the rules.

And yes, the "real killing" part refers to the action of killing, not to the dead people. How do I know that? Because I wrote that rule.

[brgnorway 0]

But you forgot something crucial Denoir:

§7)No public discussion on how the forum is moderated

[SpongeBob 0]

could have been of a sleeping man

he had ice bags on his chest.

[brgnorway 0]

could have been of a sleeping man

he had ice bags on his chest.  

Yes he had - but those pics are hardly offensive - and they are indeed placed well within the context we are discussing!

[Placebo 29]

such pictures have been posted before.

True, like here, result was a permanent ban, I don't recall you defending that person......

Quote[/b] ]And yes, the "real killing" part refers to the action of killing, not to the dead people. How do I know that? Because I wrote that rule.

Actually "real killing" refers to the act of killing or the act of being dead, perhaps keeping it in there like that makes it bad English (I blame Hilandor), but the fact remains photos of corpses have never been acceptable in the years I've been a moderator on these forums.

Quote[/b] ]The picture that Bals posted could have been of a sleeping man.

Hmm yes except for the taped eyes, ice packs and text saying that it was a corpse below the image as well as at the linked website....

[denoir 0]

such pictures have been posted before.

True, like here, result was a permanent ban, I don't recall you defending that person......

I never saw the image so I assumed that it was an offensive explicit image. If it on the other hand was the the same thing as Bals' picture, then I say the same thing.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]And yes, the "real killing" part refers to the action of killing, not to the dead people. How do I know that? Because I wrote that rule.

Actually "real killing" refers to the act of killing or the act of being dead, perhaps keeping it in there like that makes it bad English (I blame Hilandor), but the fact remains photos of corpses have never been acceptable in the years I've been a moderator on these forums.

The point of that rule is to prevent people from being exposed to disgusting pictures. In this case had the corpse been mutilated, covered in blood or anything else visually repulsive then sure. A while ago I posted pictures with flag-draped cascets. You know those were dead people too. Why was I not perm banned?

Anyway "killing" is by primary grammatical definition an act, not an object. You could say that you want it to mean "dead people", but that is not what it says. The level of ambiguity and the possible interpretations alone make it unjust to ban people for it. Add a paragraph saying "no dead people" and it will be clear. Otherwise it is very unfair to ban or post restrict people because the rules are written in incorrect english. Especially when the base definition of "real killing" refers to the act. If you want to ban people for showing dead people, fine (I may not agree with it, but it is your right to do so) but then say that in the rules.

[llauma 0]

Alot more offending pictures are published in common media so I don't understand why to instantly ban a member when he posts a pic that's not even for sure against the forum rules at least not the written rules the members can read.

Is it very reasonable to ban a member without any warnings because of such a vague reason? Balschoiw was even voted the friendliest poster of this forum just a couple of months ago...

[PAPABEAR_1985 0]

Alot more offending pictures are published in common media so I don't understand why to instantly ban a member when he posts a pic that's not even for sure against the forum rules at least not the written rules the members can read.

Is it very reasonable to ban a member without any warnings because of such a vague reason? Balschoiw was even voted the friendliest poster of this forum just a couple of months ago...

True Balschoiw very friendly member.

[bn880 5]

such pictures have been posted before.

True, like here, result was a permanent ban, I don't recall you defending that person......

Yeah but that is because Denoir didn't see it, I was trying to defend Colossus, and failed obviously. It was a little harsh to outright ban IMO.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]And yes, the "real killing" part refers to the action of killing, not to the dead people. How do I know that? Because I wrote that rule.

Actually "real killing" refers to the act of killing or the act of being dead, perhaps keeping it in there like that makes it bad English (I blame Hilandor), but the fact remains photos of corpses have never been acceptable in the years I've been a moderator on these forums.

Quote[/b] ]The picture that Bals posted could have been of a sleeping man.

Hmm yes except for the taped eyes, ice packs and text saying that it was a corpse below the image as well as at the linked website....

Then the rules should be much more clear on the issue, my personal suggestion would be to revise the rules to say what you want them to, and maybe lean off on Balschoiw and Colossus... but hey, I'm not a moderator, just someone who has been around for a while.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Is it very reasonable to ban a member without any warnings because of such a vague reason? Balschoiw was even voted the friendliest poster of this forum just a couple of months ago...

HAHAHA, Bals friendly with his war criminal crap....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....id=1480

Quote[/b] ]

Berlusconi vows to stay 'to the very end' with US in Iraq, bashes opposition

13 minutes ago  

ROME (AFP) - Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi strongly defended Italy's military presence in Iraq (news - web sites), slamming the opposition for demanding a withdrawal from the US-led coalition and accusing them of serving the interests of the "enemies of democracy".

Quote[/b] ]

"Italy considers that it is its duty and its honor to remain to the very end at the side of those who defend the United Nations (news - web sites) Charter in Iraq", said Berlusconi, a day after talks with US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) in Washington.

Quote[/b] ]

He dismissed the opposition's motion for troop withdrawal as "a sign of weakness and wavering".

"I wonder what the warlords in Iraq think when they hear about these motion," he said.

Quote[/b] ]

Before his US trip, Berlusconi came under pressure from his allies and the influential Catholic church to lobby Bush for a radical change in Iraq policy.

Fearless? Crazy? F.. the left? Moral man?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Come on, lets all shut up cause we can only make it worse. Let us sort this us through PM. The only thing we can achieve here is to escalate the issue! SO SHUT UP!

[llauma 0]

HAHAHA, Bals friendly with his war criminal crap....

I dont care what you think but at least the forum members thinks he is much friendlier than you are.