The Iraq Thread 2

[ran 0]

and 2 times (that's much more than that actually) should be more than enough to get the lesson btw , that + the 3000+ deaths on the 9th of september 2001

*11th of September 2001

yeah 11th ... september being the ninth month .sry my memory messed up once again

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

oh no! Dont tell me we did the loop back to 9/11 discussion again. Hell, do we hang around in this forum for such a long time now that we start repeating stories (which we assume telling for the first time).

So here comes my back-on-track question:

What price is the american public not willing to pay. Undertaking a simple worst case scenario (being pessimistic). What would have to happen untill the americans would give a TBA a serious signal that the Iraq-campaign has to end. And what would be the way out?

Retreat & pull out of Iraq? Not supportable!

Let anarchy rule the streets & erect safe basecamps and stay in there untill the storm is over? Not fair!

Send more troops? No, not if you want to create a Vietnam scenario part II!

Demand UN troops: Would seem the only way out of the dilemma. But if the situation turns worse I doubt other nations would like to get involved.

The choices dont look to good I have to admit! The only choice TBA realy has it to succeed and that success has to come quickly. Failure would mean total failure in all areas related.

[Milkman 1]

Quote[/b] ]  

where the heck did that smilie come from?  

The Scream movies. Masked killer murders teenagers blah blah blah. Atleast they were better than the Jason and Holloween movies...

[denoir 0]

And what would be the way out?

Although things arn't looking too good, it's difficult to make any conclusions yet. It's summer in Iraq and from what I understand it makes it just about impossible to get any work done thanks to the immense heat.

The good news is that no US troops have been killed today. If however the killings continue the future presence of US troops in Iraq will be uncertain.

One reasonable solution is to put UN troops that the Iraqis won't see as evil occupiers that have come to take their oil. The problem is that it would require a bin mea culpa from TBA to the world. UN troops largely depend on troops from several EU countries that were opposed to the war in the first place. It's going to take some serious ass-kissing before they will be willing to move a finger to help the US. Right now the attitude is: "we told you so, now you clean up your own mess".

And that makes sense too. Why should French and German soldiers risk their lives for something their people and government were opposed to in the first place. I'm also uncertain if they are capable of providing a large enough force for the task right now. A lot of the available trained UN troops are already busy in other corners of the world. Regular troops could of course be sent in, but that is less than an optimal solution as they lack the proper training and their command structure lacks proper experience. They may very will end up in the same situation as the Americans are now.

I think that Britain should step up and take more responsibility. So far the Iraqis have been comparably less hostile to the British than to the Americans. USA does not have a good rep in that region.

[Schoeler 0]

One reasonable solution is to put UN troops that the Iraqis won't see as evil occupiers that have come to take their oil. The problem is that it would require a bin mea culpa from TBA to the world. UN troops largely depend on troops from several EU countries that were opposed to the war in the first place. It's going to take some serious ass-kissing before they will be willing to move a finger to help the US. Right now the attitude is: "we told you so, now you clean up your own mess".

I agree, a U.N. presence would do much to cool things down with the paranoid and radical elements in Iraq. Bush however, will not stand down. He's got too much Texan cowboy pride. My sister sent me a good Time magazine article recently that basically surmised that George Bush is somewhat delusional in his beliefs. I'll see if I can find a link to it.

Quote[/b] ]And that makes sense too. Why should French and German soldiers risk their lives for something their people and government were opposed to in the first place. I'm also uncertain if they are capable of providing a large enough force for the task right now. A lot of the available trained UN troops are already busy in other corners of the world. Regular troops could of course be sent in, but that is less than an optimal solution as they lack the proper training and their command structure lacks proper experience. They may very will end up in the same situation as the Americans are now.

I don't think German and French troops should be involved at all. Only countries that were initially interested in helping the Iraqi people before, should be allowed to help the Iraqi people now. Those who were indifferent or opposed to any such action should not be allowed any influence or participation in post-war Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]I think that Britain should step up and take more responsibility. So far the Iraqis have been comparably less hostile to the British than to the Americans. USA does not have a good rep in that region.

Initially this was true. It is not so much the case anymore. I saw a PBS interview of average Iraqi citizens on the street the other day (post U&Q assasination) and the general attitude seems to be changing to one of "The Americans are trying hard to help us, and despite some earlier failures, we should try and support their effort." One man expressed desire to kill anyone trying to kill American soldiers and said that it was the duty of average citizens to turn them in to the authorities. Who knows what percentage of the population feels this way, or if that attitude is a trend that will continue, but it does seem to be an indicator of positive changes.

[denoir 0]

I don't think German and French troops should be involved at all.  Only countries that were initially interested in helping the Iraqi people before, should be allowed to help the Iraqi people now.  Those who were indifferent or opposed to any such action should not be allowed any influence or participation in post-war Iraq.

Without them, there is no possibility of creating a UN force. They are by far the biggest contributors, both economically and financially. A lot of other EU countries that are significant contributors (for instance Belgium, Norway, Finland, Sweden) shared the same view as the French, Germans and Russian and won't help unless there is a proper UN resolution behind it. The only way a proper resolution is going to be drafted and passed is if USA gives complete control of the political and financial reconstruction to the UN.

Quote[/b] ]Initially this was true. It is not so much the case anymore. I saw a PBS interview of average Iraqi citizens on the street the other day (post U&Q assasination) and the general attitude seems to be changing to one of "The Americans are trying hard to help us, and despite some earlier failures, we should try and support their effort." One man expressed desire to kill anyone trying to kill American soldiers and said that it was the duty of average citizens to turn them in to the authorities. Who knows what percentage of the population feels this way, or if that attitude is a trend that will continue, but it does seem to be an indicator of positive changes.

We must be talking about two different Iraqs or possibly we live on different planets. The Iraqi resentment towards the Americans has reached new epic proportions and is growing.

There are huge Sh'ia anti-US demonstrations every day. Just the other day it was what - 20,000 or something like that in Baghdad protesting the US occupation. The Sunnis are protecting and supporting the growing guerilla movement. This past week was an all-time high in US casualties since the end of major combat.

Hell, even Wolfowitz admitted in an interview two days ago that US-Iraqi relations were shot to hell and rapidly deteriorating.

[Schoeler 0]

We must be talking about two different Iraqs or possibly we live on different planets. The Iraqi resentment towards the Americans has reached new epic proportions and is growing.

There are huge Sh'ia anti-US demonstrations every day. Just the other day it was what - 20,000 or something like that in Baghdad protesting the US occupation. The Sunnis are protecting and supporting the growing guerilla movement. This past week was an all-time high in US casualties since the end of major combat.

Hell, even Wolfowitz admitted in an interview two days ago that US-Iraqi relations were shot to hell and rapidly deteriorating.

Those aren't the reports I'm getting from the media here. From what I've seen, since U&Q were killed, the radical elements have stepped up their opposition, and the every day Iraqi has calmed down a bit. The infrastructure is starting to come back in some areas, so this has to be helping things somewhat.

[denoir 0]

I'll try to find that Wolfowitz interview for you after I complete writing another post.

Basically he said after coming back from Iraq that the rebuilding of the infrastructure was progressing very slowly, that the Iraqis absolutely resented the American presence and that the US troop weren't too fond of the Iraqis either.

Also he claimed that the US indeed had a plan for post-war Iraq, but that it didn't survive first contact with reality.

In short, he gave an extremely pessimistic view of the situation.

Edit: I didn't find the complete interview, but here are some articles about it that should give you the general idea:

Wolfowitz: Security 'Real Problem,' but Situation Will Improve

Wolfowitz Concedes Iraq Errors

[Major Fubar 0]

I don't think German and French troops should be involved at all.  Only countries that were initially interested in helping the Iraqi people before, should be allowed to help the Iraqi people now.  Those who were indifferent or opposed to any such action should not be allowed any influence or participation in post-war Iraq.

If America's true interest is the wellbeing of the Iraqi people, surely it shouldn't have a problem with stepping aside and letting other countries continue with the job of helping Iraq back onto it's feet...surely they wouldn't put their pride before Iraq's wellbeing...

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Blah, here is how to fix the problem

http://www.theembassyvfx.com/quicktime/tetra.mov

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Hell, even Wolfowitz admitted in an interview two days ago that US-Iraqi relations were shot to hell and rapidly deteriorating.

LOL, I coulda told you that. Shooting at people tends to put a damper on diplomacy.

[Tovarish 0]

Blah, here is how to fix the problem

http://www.theembassyvfx.com/quicktime/tetra.mov

WHOA . Damn impressive CGI

[E6Hotel 0]

Also he claimed that the US indeed had a plan for post-war Iraq, but that it didn't survive first contact with reality.

No plan survives first contact.  Take Fallujah, for example.  After the Army revamped its approach, things calmed down a bit.  

From the admittedly pro-U.S. mayor:

Quote[/b] ]"The tension is reducing every day," he said. "We are seeing a change. People are starting to realize that the soldiers are not here to occupy Fallujah forever -- they're here to help us rebuild."

From an admittedly not pro-U.S. taxi driver who had a foot shot off by U.S. soldiers:

Quote[/b] ]He said that U.S. soldiers have visited his house four times -- to apologize, to provide a medical check-up and twice to assess damages to his property. "They've changed my opinions," said Saleh, 41, who hobbles around on crutches. "I used to hate them, but now I realize they made a mistake and they really want to help us."

BTW, an aside about the demonstration that claimed said foot:

Quote[/b] ]Many residents believed that the demonstrators were unarmed, although local leaders concede that a handful of Hussein loyalists who had infiltrated the demonstration might have shot at the soldiers.

Washington Post

The problem is not that things aren't getting better.  The problem is that things aren't getting better fast enough.

Quote[/b] ]The Americans must provide humanitarian aid, job opportunities, good salaries, said Ali Abdul-Jabbar Wahid, a former captain in the Iraqi army. If they do these things, we will hoist them up on our shoulders.

MSNBC

My opinion is that it doesn't matter whose troops occupy Iraq -- U.S. or U.N. -- the Iraqis will rightfully be suspicious of motives.  The trick now is to prove those motives (i.e. stealing oil) wrong, which will take time.  It's only been three months.

Semper Fi

[FallenPaladin 0]

I don't think German and French troops should be involved at all.  Only countries that were initially interested in helping the Iraqi people before, should be allowed to help the Iraqi people now.  Those who were indifferent or opposed to any such action should not be allowed any influence or participation in post-war Iraq.

This formulation isn`t correct. We Germans and the French thought of the Iraqi people. More than TBA did for sure. We were just not willing to help TBA.

TBA has just two choices: Either continue on their own and take the grave consequences or asking the UN for help. Asking the UN for help would be proof that TBA just wants the best for the Iraqi people, even if it means for TBA to lose the "might" in the Iraq concerning the politics there and the oil.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]I don't think German and French troops should be involved at all. Only countries that were initially interested in helping the Iraqi people before, should be allowed to help the Iraqi people now. Those who were indifferent or opposed to any such action should not be allowed any influence or participation in post-war Iraq.

Since when does anyone but the victim dictates who gets to help? If I am at the scene of a fire, and chose not to help put it out, I cant treat the wounded?

Are you talking about helping people here or dividing up the spoils of war?

Since Sweden didnt take part in the fighting, we cant send field hospitals? Since Belgium wasnt involved, they are not allowed to send food? What, you cant help people if you dont give them a whopping first? Great train of thought there....

"If America's true interest is the wellbeing of the Iraqi people, surely it shouldn't have a problem with stepping aside and letting other countries continue with the job of helping Iraq back onto it's feet...surely they wouldn't put their pride before Iraq's wellbeing... "

Was actually what I was trying to say...

[Balschoiw 0]

Some news and numbers:

In southern Iraq there are an increasing number of attacks on Iraqi Christians, particularly those selling alcoholic beverages (traditionally allowed for Iraqi Christians.) Islamic fundamentalism has traditionally been stronger in southern Iraq, where the principal Shia holy places are located. Christians make up only about two percent of the Iraqi population and most originally come from villages in northern Iraq. The Christians have been in Iraq for nearly 2,000 years, but once Islam arrived 1300 years ago, many have converted or immigrated.

So far, 30 nations have agreed to send troops to help with the pacification of Iraq. These are; Albania, Azerbaijan, Britain, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, Estonia, El Salvador, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Mongolia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, Norway, the Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain and Ukraine.

Centcom announced that in the last 24 hours coalition forces have conducted 29 raids, 1,096 day patrols and 889 night patrols. In addition, troops conducted 122 day patrols and 139 night patrols jointly with Iraqi police.

[USSoldier11B 0]

The original coalition in 1991 included 200 Mujahideen fighters from Afghanistan, I found that very surprising.

[SpecOp9 0]

Another little update...

USA says for Airports to be aware near the end of this summer, as there is expected to be more hijackings...

NEWSFLASH: Uncle Sam says:

"Go ahead and try"

[Longinius 1]

Yeah, and its not like we have had scores of warnings before. Its getting tiresome, to be honest.

But as long as the population is kept fearful, support for the War Against Terrorism has solid support I guess.

[SgtBarnes 0]

Yeah, and its not like we have had scores of warnings before. Its getting tiresome, to be honest.

But as long as the population is kept fearful, support for the War Against Terrorism â„¢ has solid support I guess.

Talking of this, does anyone remember the tanks at Heathrow Airport during the Iraq build up? What the hell was that in aid of? Were they expecting to face the 1st Al-Queda Armoured Battalion?

Blatant scaremongering

[CosmicCastaway 0]

More news of 'sexed up' documents:

Satire...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]I don't think German and French troops should be involved at all.  Only countries that were initially interested in helping the Iraqi people before, should be allowed to help the Iraqi people now.  Those who were indifferent or opposed to any such action should not be allowed any influence or participation in post-war Iraq.

Only countries that were initially interested in helping Iraq? If you would be standing right in front of me while saying this I would ...need some serious breathing exercises to calm down my anger.... (well you got the message)

Are you people not noticing that you are constantly wrong?

Stop inspections, Saddam is fooling all you peace-loving nations anyway. To find the WMD is not a question of time, it is a question of determination!

Then, Boom Bang US ignores basically ALL international voices, calling the entire world traitors and the UN "piece of the past" if it doesnt cooperate.

French, German and russians propose to station UN troops in Iraq peacefully? Ah bullshit, that is again one of those silly lib gay and pacifist solutions. No we need a war!

Our incredible great CIA has unquestionable proof of WMD and we will move in before those can be used against us. War against terror! Stupid incompetent international UN inspectors cant do the job. we know it better.

The war was unbloody for the americans but definetly not for the Iraqis. DO YOU SERIOUSLY CALL THOUSANDS CIVILLIANS CASUALTIES HELP! DO YOU REALY TELL ME THAT PREVENTING A WAR MEANS THAT WE DID NOT WANT TO HELP THE IRAQIS. Now that is a very perverted mind! Not wanting a nation to suffer a war means not wanting to help them? And dont give me the silly example of WWII cause now we now that the threat of Saddam was zero to none.

All you have done is removed a dictator from power so far...at what cost? The country is drowning in anarchy. Intelligent missiles prevented unecessary damage but raids later on flattened more buildings than carpet bombing could do.

2 soldiers dead per day. Yeah things are really calming down, and infrastructure is improving (still no secured water and electricity even in Bagdad). Guards surrounding the ministry of oil but not even a single guard in front of hospitals or the national museum of history (one of the most significant treasures worldwide). Initially a large amount of your troops should have been sent back to the US end of July...they will stay (oh they stay because things are actually running so well that they intend to stay for holiday in Iraq)!  The amount of organised attacks is increasing. The US general in chief has recently admitted for the first time that his troops are actually facing organised guerilla attacks!

Hell right now you are not helping a bit. Your stupid incompetent president and his unsophisticated uncultured administration has published a lot of rethorical diarrhea but failed in every concern, using Iraq as a playground in their holy bullshit crussade!

So far I have never read such a useless comment from your side. It seems you are desperately trying to convince yourself that you were right. You are more and more failing!

If we want to help we do it! We dont need the US to allow us to give aid to Iraq. Or is it allready considered as US teritorry? Or maybe you get me wrong. "Helping someone" in german does not mean having a second aim in mind. We can help without getting a share of your occupied oil.

[bn880 5]

Hell right now you are not helping a bit. Your stupid incompetent president and his unsophisticated uncultured administration has published a lot of rethorical diarrhea but failed in every concern, using Iraq as a playground in their holy bullshit crussade!

Haha, man that was funny! The holy bullshit crussade, ROFL.... yep.

[FallenPaladin 0]

"Uuh, haven`t seen Albert that upset lately

Therapy 1

Therapy 2

/me sings " Oh oil can you seeeeeeeeeee..."

[denoir 0]

More news of 'sexed up' documents:

Satire...

LOL.

"Fox News immediately greeted this evidence as, "compelling" and devoted two hours of programming to repeating the phrase over and over again in authoritative tones."