The Dogs of War

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 28 2003,20:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think this "order to shoot civilians" paranoia is a bunch of crap.  The overall strategy in Iraq is towin the hearts and minds of the civilian population.  The coalition has gone out of its way to NOT target civilians, instead, focusing on pinpoint bombing and positive target identification that put greater risk on coalition forces.  If anyone has substantial evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it presented, instead of the repeatedly unsubstantiated claims that make the poster look like a retard.<span id='postcolor'>

It's your hysterial interpretation of the information that makes it look absurd. Nobody said that American-British forces are going to carpet bomb Iraqi cities or start shooting Iraqi women and children in the streets.

What we are talking about is a change of ROE when it comes to suspected combatants dressed as civilians. During the first days of the war the ROE dictated not to shoot until shot upon and absolutely do not shoot at civilians. The Iraqi have exploited that and now American-British forces are adapting to that fact. The policy now seems to be that suspected combatants in disguise are dealt with very carefully with the principle shoot first ask questions later. This will of course endanger the male civilian Iraqi population but the US/UK forces have a higher priority to protect themselves.

Now we have this information from two independent sources, which by modern day journalism is enough to declare it worth printing.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Mar. 28 2003,2100)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nobody said that American-British forces are going to carpet bomb Iraqi cities or start shooting Iraqi women and children in the streets.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually,

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Mar. 26 2003,13:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">British troops have been ordered to engage ANY I repeat ANY persons in civillian clothes. No matter if they are actually fighting or not. Basra has been declared a military target wich in the language of war means that any inhabitant, military or not is an enemy and will be shot if possible.<span id='postcolor'>

that is exactly what was said.

Semper Fi

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

"So now we don't like CNN, and an embedded reporter?  "

I dont recall anyone saying they really liked CNN at any point at all. Ever.

Well, almost.

And the general concensus has been that what embedded journalists say is subject to strict censorship. I dont recall anyone really argueing these points.

What i have found unbelievable is that

"As for American and British KIA, I'd put the number between 300-500 based on scraps of information that I have."

To me that looked more like the WIA figures for the time it was posted. Id guess coalition KIA might be pushing 150-250 max about now. But of course i have been seduced by the CNN Bush mind control system so pay no attention to my utterances.

This is what Balschoiw said

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It looks like the war on civillians has started on full scale. British troops have been ordered to engage ANY I repeat ANY persons in civillian clothes. No matter if they are actually fighting or not. Basra has been declared a military target wich in the language of war means that any inhabitant, military or not is an enemy and will be shot if possible.

In Bagdad missiles hit crowded civillian, NOT MILITARY, areas and resideantial zones.

We all share the opinion that coalition forces try to break the civillian will now to enforce a revolution within Bagdad. US troops around Bagdad are scared of the losses and a possible defeat that would (even if only parts of the invading army would be defeated) be a major loss for the coaltion forces on the international stage.

Therefore we will see a lot more "misguided" rockets the next hours, days...<span id='postcolor'>

THATS what you think a change of ROE backs up and supports?

Sorry but to me that looks like a somewhat wild conspiracy. At very least without more evidence.

-------------------------------------------------

50 people killed ,dozens injured in another Baghdad blast. Probably another stray bomb.

(unless its a CIA plot to somehow force the Iraqis to overthow Saddam by killing them)

Everyone knows that Churhill and Hitler were overthown by their populations as soon as large scale civilian bombings started.....

[Antichrist 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 28 2003,20:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where is the carpet bombing?

Where is the indiscriminate shelling and seige of Basra?

Where are the huge numbers of civilian casualties from indiscriminate targetting?<span id='postcolor'>

Well, what about two bombings of the market in Baghdad that killed around 70 people so far?

[Blake 0]

Where is the shock and awe? This Rumsfeld doctrine seems to lead towards lenghty war. Shocking first strike with superior firepower which I expected didn't materialize. Pentagon seemed to ignore the facts that majority of servicemen in Iraqi defence forces didn't experience the Gulf War and actually have grown up with propaganda thinking they won that war. No wonder they are now making stiff resistance when the paralyzing strike with superior firepower didn't materialize. Peace-meal coalition attacks only encourage and feed the determination of Iraqi forces.

From strategic point of view I was very surprised that they didn't rely on superior, paralyzing firepower and more numerous forces right from the beginning. Pentagon screwed up the Northern front politically and didn't even bother to send 4th inf south in time for the initial attack.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 28 2003,14:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where is the carpet bombing?

Where is the indiscriminate shelling and seige of Basra?<span id='postcolor'>

Have you seen all the cut up civilian buses on the highways?

[bn880 5]

Weather forecast is particularly bad for next week in Iraq: Reuters Article

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Mar. 28 2003,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Everyone knows that Churhill and Hitler were overthown by their populations as soon as large scale civilian bombings started.....<span id='postcolor'>

What in the world have you been smoking mate

[Badgerboy 0]

Actually I saw footage of a bus that had been riddled with bullets. US Mariens were picking through the remains, and confirmed that they were military personel. The also found a couple of handguns in the luggage.

Only two survived, the rest were shot in their seats from automatic fire.

Then I realised, if they were not armed, how the hell were they a legimate target? Most were wearing civilian clothing as well, so I don't know who the hell made that call. Blasting buses of unarmed soldiers is just not cricket!

(The segment was on Sky News earlier today)

[bn880 5]

I have seen this also. Some men apparently were dragged out and shot or were outside unarmed and looks like they were executed... well, anyway, this is inconsequential compared to what civilians go through.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Mar. 29 2003,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Mar. 28 2003,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Everyone knows that Churhill and Hitler were overthown by their populations as soon as large scale civilian bombings started.....<span id='postcolor'>

What in the world have you been smoking mate        <span id='postcolor'>

And can I get some of it from you?

I just saw a brief thing on the news about the Marines finding a place that may have been used to torture P.O.W.'s?

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Mar. 28 2003,20:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmedic @ Mar. 28 2003,13:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think the word of a CNN reporter (or any other reporter) particularly confirms anything...

Then again, an order such as that may have been given in a particular skirmish with the civilian dressed fighters...but is certainly not the overall doctrine.

They have absolutely started to treat all civilians, and POWs with a high index of suspicion though...as they should.<span id='postcolor'>

So now we don't like CNN, and an embedded reporter?  Which is it.  Suddenly everything is becoming blurry isn't it.<span id='postcolor'>

Well...First off all, I said "the word of a CNN reporter (or any other reporter)" is not confirmation of anything.

I then went on to refer to the fact that perhaps such orders might very well have been given in a particular situation...but they are absolutely not the new battle doctrine.

If they were, then by now the Brits would be having tea in Basara, while stepping over dead bodies.

As far as CNN...I have PERSONALLY experienced their willingness to make statements before they have all of the facts.

I think the embedded reporters are a good thing, but you still have to take everything they say with a grain of salt until their statements are confirmed.

(remember the CHEMICAL WEAPONS FACTORY from a few days ago?)

They are not military, and they can only report what they interpret from what they see/hear...sometimes they are accurate, and sometimes not.

BTW...of the news agencies there, CNN is my LAST choice to view.

[PFC_Mike 2]

I agree, CNN is terrible. They aren't anywhere near what they wre in '91.

Executed POW's? You're joking Bn880! Are you suggesting that the US has adopted Iraqi tactics?

[bn880 5]

Okay first of all, this isn't really about CNN, that was bait... it was a TIME embedded reporter Alex Perry who reported this.

Mike:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Executed POW's? <span id='postcolor'>

POW's? What?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You're joking Bn880! <span id='postcolor'>

What kind of a joke is Bn880?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you suggesting that the US has adopted Iraqi tactics?<span id='postcolor'> Then you can answer this: Are you going to quit working for Hussein?

[Othin 0]

Regarding the cut up buses. It's possible that you saw footage of the bus that tried to run into the Bradley (which ran the front end over). I believe there were a few buses and vehicles involved in this incident.

[bn880 5]

I don't think so, the ones I saw were in different places on the highway, very modern buses... hit pretty badly by bullets. Also I could see there were cars attacked in the fast lane on the highway, you could see the trail of burnt out oil, and htey pulled over 100-200m later, destroyed/burned completely. So small arms fire or MG's mounted on jeeps. Perhaps tank MG.

[Badgerboy 0]

Bn880 is correct. It looked dodgy as hell. I think the troops are getting a little paranoid,and shooting first, asking questions later.

[ale2999 0]

Did u guys see the footage of the xplosion near the communication building? that was a mighty explosion!

[bn880 5]

Nope, since you mention it I'll try and see it.

[Akira 0]

A Kuwaiti mall has been hit by a "Silkworm" missile. One worker is said to have been injured. The attack happened about 1:30am local.

[bn880 5]

Yes actually the missile missed the mall by some yards and likely fell into near by water. There was still a fair bit of damage to the mall and reporters were showing pieces apparently from the rocket. They found a mostly unburned piece of circuit board with chinese writing.

[Badgerboy 0]

Chinese copy of the Styx (Russian) Exported bloody everywhere over the ME.

[bn880 5]

Yep that seems to be the metal at a glance, any of those rockets painted green?

[Badgerboy 0]

I imagine it would depend on the country using it. That picture is of the Russian Styx. The Silkworm looks identical, but has slighty differing performance.

Anti ship missiles like this are major threats in the Gulf. I imagine these would have been targeted as a priority.

[bn880 5]

Here is a link to some of the civilian damage actually recorded and sent out from Iraq:

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>WARNING! EXPLICIT IMAGES SHOWING REAL INJURIES AND TRAUMA</span>WarVictims, VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED