Fixed Wing Flight Model (dev branch)

[John Spartan 89]

@YanYatCheng - the Su35 is a mod. And also the version you have is BETA, so please remember that this is still not final nor official content. The issue you are talking is more of a config mistake on my end... 

[dragon01 902]

Planes can certainly fly backwards (and sideways). You don't even need TVC, just ask Jurgis Kairys. :) That guy can do a Cobra on takeoff. In a propeller plane (really, I saw it with my own eyes). Granted, jet fighters are a bit different in that regard, but I think you can do a lot of those aerobatics with them as well, you just need more speed and airspace.

[twistking 204]

hello guys,

 

i fly fixed wings with mouse and keyboard (mosue for looking around and strafing on gun runs (rudder)) simply because i don't want to switch input devices all the time and the only good thing about fixed wing FM is, that it is so simple, that you can be combat effectiv without proper flight gear;)

 

whts really bugging me however, is the way that throttle input is handled since ofp. when you use keyboard for throttle (standard controls), you always have some sort of speed autopilot engaged, which works in completely strange and unintuivtive ways: sometimes enaging air brakes, sometimes accelerating, but if you want to climb, you still need to have the "shift" pushed all the time. it's irritating and doesn't make sense at all.

 

is there a workaround, to use manual throttle without analog throttle input? the adcanced heli FSM has it. One button to increase throttle, another to decrease throttle.it isn't practically to fly that way, because the helis are so dependent on super prescise throttling, but for planes that would'nt be a problem. i think it would even work, when you just had some steps like: brakes on, 0% throttle, 33% throttle, 66% throttle, full throttle, full throttle+afterburner.

and you would just cycle through this steps.

 

would make things so much better!

 

anyhow, if you guys know a workaround to get me keyboard-flying without auto-throttle/auto-breaking please let me know. :)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Since you guys can't really do an in depth Flight Model overhaul, here's a decent suggestion. Mouse as yoke improvement? In other words, currently, flying without a stick requires some annoying keyboard and mouse combination flying, which is totally fine, but not efficient, and not fun. Not really enjoyable after long periods of time, and not smooth on how the aircraft moves what so ever. Currently, when you use mouse only for flying, it moves the aircraft slightly, and then stops.

 

What my suggestion is, can be best represented as a dot within a box. The dot is in the middle by default. Your mouse moves the dot around the box, and the box represents the aircraft. It would be absolutely helpful if you could create this system where moving your mouse towards you (down, remember, dot in the box now moves down), then the aircraft pulls up. When you move the mouse and stop, the dot stays in that position in the box, and thus the aircraft remains steady in that direction. Same for the roll. You move your mouse, left or right in that box, and stop, the aircraft will continue rolling until you move the mouse closer in to slow the spinning. Moving the mouse to the left bottom of the box will cause a spiral, you are both pulling up, and spinning to the left, thus the aircraft will spiral up, and to the left, until you move the mouse back to center box to steady out the aircraft. Could you guys make this improvements to make flying with mouse and keyboard far more efficient, and it will at least make it feel good to fly as well. 

[x3kj 1247]

It would make it alot harder to aim at targets or to fly straight. There is no selfcentering with a mouse like with a flightstick.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

It would make it alot harder to aim at targets or to fly straight. There is no selfcentering with a mouse like with a flightstick.

Not true. The feature i mentioned is available in almost all main stream flight sims i know. It's the opposite, it makes much better in terms of aiming, because your flying is far more smooth. Take War Thunder for example, though despite their flight model being far more authentic, using the Full Real Control settings gives you a circle in which to move the mouse around in, which is how you perform your aircraft. Hehehe, i actually forgot i have a video of this myself to prove you can fly with Mouse just as smooth as a joystick. Here.

 

Take note to the circle and the dot, and watch how the aircraft performs.

[twistking 204]

i am also skeptical because of the lack of self centering, but if it works as well, as you say, it is an interesting solution.

 

however i think a decent solution for incremental throttle control on mouse+keyboard is even more important.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

i am also skeptical because of the lack of self centering, but if it works as well, as you say, it is an interesting solution.

 

however i think a decent solution for incremental throttle control on mouse+keyboard is even more important.

Self centering wasn't exact mainly because it's in simulator mode. This means that everything the aircraft does is included in it's performance. My mouse was always slightly left of the center because the torque of the Piston creates forces that means if i'm exactly center, the aircraft would always turning slight right and up. Thus, i keep my mouse in a position a pilot would to counter said force. Yes, i only use limited trim.

 

But anyhow, the point is, Arma doesn't have that great of a flight model, but the Mouse as Yoke alone would be an amazing upgrade in itself. Because it doesn't have the amount of detail War Thunder does, there's no need for complex additions of trim and such. So in Arma, if we had the feature, the mouse would indeed be dead center, and the aircraft would  fly straight, with the exception of flaps, depending on if you're that kinda pilot.

[infrareddimming 195]

Honestly War Thunder's RB flight controls would be perfect for Arma. Planes are a joy to fly using the keyboard and mouse in War Thunder and due to the realistic flightmodels they feel weighty and realistic. Same goes for tanks btw. 

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I'm talking less about the flight model itself, but rather more about the mouse being more involved into how the aircraft performs when you move it. It would make flying a massive bunch better, even without a new or  improved flight model. Though, come the time we ever get one (god forbid XD), then having the mouse as yoke feature would then already be there and would then also be a win win.

 

PS. If you notice me flying sideways, or on a slight angle'd turn all the time in that example video, it's because i like to have more situation awareness. Flying straight is never a good idea in my head, and i also like to have a bit more view of the ground as well. Tactical flying.

[Blafirelli 24]

Honestly War Thunder's RB flight controls would be perfect for Arma. Planes are a joy to fly using the keyboard and mouse in War Thunder and due to the realistic flightmodels they feel weighty and realistic. Same goes for tanks btw. 

Afaik WT uses quite complex translation between mouse movement and plane control surfaces and thus might need significant effort to recreate in Arma...

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Afaik WT uses quite complex translation between mouse movement and plane control surfaces and thus might need significant effort to recreate in Arma...

Jeez, ok, it sounds complex yes, but it's probably not. I used to play an aged flight sim known as YSFlight (not actually aged, it's just the developer is a real pilot, and works on the sim completely by himself, but modders make outstanding additions to the game), the game is very simple, yet, the way the mouse and keyboard is used with the flight model makes it a pretty damned addicting game, especially with more realistic addons you can get.

 

But anyhow, the mouse as joystick is, and has been a great feature in the past, and still is. The only thing complex with it, is probably because of how complex War Thunder is in general. Otherwise, it's really not.

[x3kj 1247]

Take War Thunder for example, though despite their flight model being far more authentic, using the Full Real Control settings gives you a circle in which to move the mouse around in

I play WT myself and this controll method is god damn awefull to use, even in arcade. I see no benefit to it, particulary since the work put into a new controll method could also be put into actually improving the flightmodel itself. Also, the controlls for tanks are far more in need of changes, as the controll method causes many handling issues.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I play WT myself and this controll method is god damn awefull to use, even in arcade. I see no benefit to it, particulary since the work put into a new controll method could also be put into actually improving the flightmodel itself. Also, the controlls for tanks are far more in need of changes, as the controll method causes many handling issues.

Well I suppose not everyone will have the same experience using certain control interfaces. But to be honest, in general, the mouse as you is far from terrible. It's harder in War Thunder than it is in other games I've played (YSFlight, which I've had far more experience in). As for tanks, it's about the same. To be honest. Both need just improvements. Flight model and tanks physics on land and in water. But this is the Fixed Wing Flight Model thread, and having the ability, at least as an option to use the mouse as yoke, is better than nothing at this point, even if optional. It's better than moving the mouse as it is to the right of the screen, and having the plane rudder to the right by 1 or 2 degrees. My suggestion provides far more control.

(Note: There's a reason why most Flight sims have the ability, is because it works well, otherwise it wouldn't be available as an alternative)

[x3kj 1247]

 

There's a reason why most Flight sims have the ability

WT has 3 mouse aiming alternatives... why? Because personal preference differs. It does not add more control, it's just different (and from all controll methods you can do with the mouse the most difficult to get used to).

is better than nothing

It solves no issues. It takes work and all it does is add a different mechanic to steer the plane with the mouse.

 

As for tanks, it's about the same

It isn't. This isn't because of physics (including all the issues that are related to it, noteably sound and vehicle handling during turning). This is because of how the controlls are implemented.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

 

 

WT has 3 mouse aiming alternatives... why? Because personal preference differs. It does not add more control, it's just different (and from all controll methods you can do with the mouse the most difficult to get used to).

So you're saying that only having the option to either purchase a joystick or be stuck using keys, which only manipulate the control surfaces of the aircraft fully in 2 directions at once, is completely fine because adding Mouse as Joystick doesn't provide any such benefit, including more control? You'd be wrong. I Googled, and Youtube'd the phrase, "Mouse as Joystick", and found contradictory results. Not to mentioned i played YSFlight for YEARS, which proves otherwise. Sorry, but mouse as Joystick may take probably 15 mins to mess with at most to get used to, but it does indeed add more control. It isn't as difficult to handle as you seem to want it to be.

 

(After all, it'd would take the same amount of time to get used to as a new player trying out helicopters for the first time. Everyone starts somewhere, but not everyone cares about flying a helicopter, much less a fixed wing aircraft to begin with.)

 

 

 

It solves no issues. It takes work and all it does is add a different mechanic to steer the plane with the mouse.

It does. It solves players from having to use keys constantly to get the perfect angle, when using a mouse can give you that perfect angle with seamless effortless movement... Of course with practice. Again, it's just a suggestion, backed up by my experience, and there's a large amount of people out there who would appreciate it as an option. Otherwise, you could keep asking BI to just fix the flight model, of which we all know the answer we are going to get. However my suggestion, is something BI can do without breaking the flight model, or god forbid, the engine, entirely, in the process.

 

As for tanks, i'm aware. I haven't touched a tank since BETA to be honest, and that video you posted is exactly why.

 

 

EDIT: https://youtu.be/f7q9l8kKl04

 

Here we go. Just uploaded an example for everyone to see. Basically, take a look at the cursor. Then watch the plane. I can roll left and right easily, smoothly, unlike with keyboard where you'd be forced to tap it, and constantly micro manage. With the Mouse, you don't have to. Then, i do spirals, and hard turns, you can see moving the mouse down puts you in a turn, or loop depending on your angle. Finally, i landed the aircraft to prove the control gives you smooth control. Trust me, i've never seen anyone land smoothly in Arma, and a large portion of that goes to the control ability of the aircraft, at least 50%, while the flight model itself is the other 50% of the blame.

[K20017 36]

I just wish the aircraft would turn when in a bank instead of having to bank and then use elevator.

 

Plus every aircraft seems to fly crooked after a bit unless you correct it with rudder here and there.  Then you start doing maneuvers and its crooked once again, like you have right rudder deflection in when no keys are pressed.  It is most noticeable on the Buzzard and as a commercial pilot myself, drives me nuts when things aren't coordinated!

[infrareddimming 195]

I'm talking less about the flight model itself, but rather more about the mouse being more involved into how the aircraft performs when you move it. It would make flying a massive bunch better, even without a new or  improved flight model. Though, come the time we ever get one (god forbid XD), then having the mouse as yoke feature would then already be there and would then also be a win win.

 

PS. If you notice me flying sideways, or on a slight angle'd turn all the time in that example video, it's because i like to have more situation awareness. Flying straight is never a good idea in my head, and i also like to have a bit more view of the ground as well. Tactical flying.

I know, hence why I differentiated between flight controls and flight model  :P

 

Afaik WT uses quite complex translation between mouse movement and plane control surfaces and thus might need significant effort to recreate in Arma...

Yeah, Im not expecting a fully revamped flight model and flight control overhaul in Arma 3. I might hold out some hope if they announce a fixed wing DLC (similarly to the heli DLC), but realistically it's probably more of an Arma 4 wish. 

 

I play WT myself and this controll method is god damn awefull to use, even in arcade. I see no benefit to it, particulary since the work put into a new controll method could also be put into actually improving the flightmodel itself. Also, the controlls for tanks are far more in need of changes, as the controll method causes many handling issues.

 

Are you talking about the full real controls specifically? With the instructor disabled? I mostly play planes in RB and those controls would be perfectly suited for Arma (as either default or advanced flight model). Infact, BIS could imitate war thunder's instructor system to differentiate between normal and afm modes. 

[x3kj 1247]

It does. It solves players from having to use keys constantly to get the perfect angle, when using a mouse can give you that perfect angle with seamless effortless movement...

You can roll and use the elevator smoothly with the mouse as it stands, if you bind your mouse to rolling and using elevator (standard keybind even, iirc). You have to use keys for using rudder alot, because without rudder you can't do a gentle turn in Arma. And your control method does not change this in any way. It's nice that this controll method works in games that have a proper flightsimulation. Arma doesn't however. You need obscene amounts of rudder. And since your controll does either only rudder or only roll it changes nothing in "flying smoothly" at present time..

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

 

 

You need obscene amounts of rudder. And since your controll does either only rudder or only roll it changes nothing in "flying smoothly" at present time.. 

You probably didn't see it correctly. Basically, in Arma right now, you can also only Rudder, or Roll, or Pitch. You can hold down a combination of 2 of those at once only, where as with my method, you can roll and pitch, AND rudder. I simply did not rudder because i had no need to. I wouldn't do it in WT either, because it would send me into a flat spin, which i only manipulate in certain situations.

 

There's something i noticed, which is Auto-Rudder, while of course not being ideal in a lot of cases, i think Fixed wing aircraft actually performed better with it. I played Arma 2 sometime ago just to screw around with A-10's and F-35's in a wasteland server, and found that the Auto rudder does actually help a lot. What you can't see i n the example video i posted was that Auto Rudder is also a thing in YSFlight. Chances are, in real life, your aircraft will be fly by wire, and assist you in flying, and in most cases that does include the rudder automatically. If they re-enabled Auto rudder, and then added my suggested method, the flying would probably feel almost as good as it does in YSFlight. Then they just need to polish the flight model, and we'd end up with something decent, instead of now, you bank sideways, and your planes nose remains facing upwards despite the fact your turning and going slightly down.

 

I understand it would take resources to implement my suggestion, so would revamping the flight model, which BI said they aren't interested in undertaking at this time, and i doubt they'll change that decision after Apex. But my suggestion is something they can do, and it would improve flying. It would take less effort than an entire FM re-do, but if they really wanted to take on the flight model, they could probably implement both anyway, as both would actually be the ideal overhaul we're looking for. Besides, it could be optional in the Game>Flight model settings, just like helicopters.

[xxgetbuck123 945]

From what I've heard the Fast jet flight model is just a heavily modified helicopter flight model, which if thats the case is a real shame. I'm as passionate about fast jets as the next bloke is however I do agree there needs to be some sort of update for the flight model.

 

 

You probably didn't see it correctly. Basically, in Arma right now, you can also only Rudder, or Roll, or Pitch. You can hold down a combination of 2 of those at once only, where as with my method, you can roll and pitch, AND rudder. I simply did not rudder because i had no need to. I wouldn't do it in WT either, because it would send me into a flat spin, which i only manipulate in certain situations.

 

There's something i noticed, which is Auto-Rudder, while of course not being ideal in a lot of cases, i think Fixed wing aircraft actually performed better with it. I played Arma 2 sometime ago just to screw around with A-10's and F-35's in a wasteland server, and found that the Auto rudder does actually help a lot. What you can't see i n the example video i posted was that Auto Rudder is also a thing in YSFlight. Chances are, in real life, your aircraft will be fly by wire, and assist you in flying, and in most cases that does include the rudder automatically. If they re-enabled Auto rudder, and then added my suggested method, the flying would probably feel almost as good as it does in YSFlight. Then they just need to polish the flight model, and we'd end up with something decent, instead of now, you bank sideways, and your planes nose remains facing upwards despite the fact your turning and going slightly down.

 

I understand it would take resources to implement my suggestion, so would revamping the flight model, which BI said they aren't interested in undertaking at this time, and i doubt they'll change that decision after Apex. But my suggestion is something they can do, and it would improve flying. It would take less effort than an entire FM re-do, but if they really wanted to take on the flight model, they could probably implement both anyway, as both would actually be the ideal overhaul we're looking for. Besides, it could be optional in the Game>Flight model settings, just like helicopters.

 

Totally agree with that. My brain just despises when I or another pilot turn their aircraft and the ass hangs down... It just isn't right. Looks shocking as well especially when you see and A-10 roll out of a CAS run and its literally at like 15 degrees nose high to the horizon sliding left or right haha.

[K20017 36]

Totally agree with that. My brain just despises when I or another pilot turn their aircraft and the ass hangs down... It just isn't right. Looks shocking as well especially when you see and A-10 roll out of a CAS run and its literally at like 15 degrees nose high to the horizon sliding left or right haha.

It is annoying but it does happen in reality and is called adverse yaw. When banking to the left, for example, the left aileron is up and the right down. The right wing now has a greater angle of attack which produces more lift and more drag so the airplane has a tendency to yaw in the opposite direction when entering a turn.

However, the adverse yaw is very easy to conttol by using the rudder and staying coordinated through the turn. The problem with Arma 3 is that using the rudder with keys is either an on or off effect so it doesn't really help and the coordination of the turn just goes to hell anyways.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

However, the adverse yaw is very easy to conttol by using the rudder and staying coordinated through the turn. The problem with Arma 3 is that using the rudder with keys is either an on or off effect so it doesn't really help and the coordination of the turn just goes to hell anyways.

Also the problem with using the Keyboard to fly, which my suggestion was geared towards solving, with combination of Auto Rudder. This would hold the Flight Model in a decent form until they truly fix it, and by that time, they'll have improved it 10 fold.

 

oukej, what do you think?

[x3kj 1247]

 

You can hold down a combination of 2 of those at once only, where as with my method, you can roll and pitch, AND rudder.

How exactly do you simulate a 3 axis joystick by positioning the mouse in a 2D grid? You can't. Only way to controll 3 axis with mouse movements is to do it with autorudder or some flightinstructor like in WT that automatically coordinates turns. And this is in no way different to the velocity driven aircraft mouse controll we currently have (compared to your method, which is position driven). You have 2 axis of your choice at any time, with 1 axis beeing left out, no matter if velocity driven or position driven mouse controll. The only reason you are flying turns smoothly in WT and whatever else you use with just banking and elevator is because of a proper flightmodel, or instructor/ autorudder, or both.

 

We argued about (in favor) of return of autorudder already several times in the past. DEV stance has been that it's not realistic and won't come back, not even as option.

[K20017 36]

DEV stance has been that it's not realistic and won't come back, not even as option.

 

Do you have a source where this was stated?   I'm curious as current jet aircraft have yaw dampers which are engaged when airborne and remain on for the duration of the flight, it's even a requirement for most, if not all jet transport aircraft.  It prevents dutch roll tendencies and serves to keep coordination throughout flight.  Current jet fighters definitely have sophisticated autopilot systems so to say that the aircraft in Arma 3 during the year 2035 would be unrealistic to have automatic yaw control, that doesn't seem right.