PuFu 4600 Posted February 14, 2017 12 minutes ago, daphne said: I could easily make a standalone game if I wanted to make profit no, realistically, you couldn't... Quote I created a mod because this is the platform that I am passionate about... you haven't created a mod, you are paying others to create a mod... Quote This engine has way more potential than many people think, although it has it's shortcomings and limitations. Afterall this is the game that introduced me to programming and modding, and I would love to stay and keep developing content for ArmA 3 as a platform. you would love to, but as soon as you couldn't make a profit out of it, you would move on, is that what you are saying? Quote Developers trying to make a living making mods? Bring out the pitchforks! :) this happened before, check CSGO and TF2... Quote edit: Maybe partially, if they get rid of the monetization guidelines we can transfer existing assets over to another engine like Unity/Unreal. you can do that just fine as long as that content was not made using BI tools (and if you are using BI tools for modelling you are doing it wrong). Quote Money is required to cover such a project as ours, I wish this was different and that everyone would work for free. how come before server monetization people were able to do it without money changing hands, and most do it now just the same way we have been doing for over a decade? your "project" is not a project, is a business model. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daphne 52 Posted February 14, 2017 11 minutes ago, PuFu said: no, realistically, you couldn't... you haven't created a mod, you are paying others to create a mod... you would love to, but as soon as you couldn't make a profit out of it, you would move on, is that what you are saying? this happened before, check CSGO and TF2... how come before server monetization people were able to do it without money changing hands, and most do it now just the same way we have been doing for over a decade? a) Yes, it just takes time and money. b) I don't know why you are saying this? I am the main developer of the mod, I lead a development team consisting of several people. I have accumulated many hours developing content for ArmA 3 over the last years c) Like I said, free and sustainable don't go together. d) I very much am a believer that there is a career for people out there to create mods. e) Server monetization was happening before on a very large scale to the point were B.I. couldn't go after all the server owners, they created a system where they can regulate the system and maintain communities so they would follow the rules and stop communities from unauthorized usage of mods (if anything this system allows B.I. to do something legally against questionable server owners by revoking their monetization license, they cannot enforce modders intellectual property) -Kane 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dscha 147 Posted February 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, daphne said: d) Server monetization was happening before on a very large scale to the point were B.I. couldn't go after all the server owners, they created a system where they can regulate the system and maintain communities so they would follow the rules and stop communities from unauthorized usage of mods. Is this System you are talking about already active or do i miss something? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PuFu 4600 Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, daphne said: a) Yes, it just takes time and money. b) I don't know why you are saying this? I am the main developer of the mod, I lead a development team consisting of several people. I have accumulated many hours developing content for ArmA 3 over the last years c) Like I said, free and sustainable don't go together. c) I very much am a believer that there is a career for people out there to create mods. d) Server monetization was happening before on a very large scale to the point were B.I. couldn't go after all the server owners, they created a system where they can regulate the system and maintain communities so they would follow the rules and stop communities from unauthorized usage of mods. -Kane a. i was thinking we were talking about realistic ideals not utopia ones. The amount of knowledge time and money to create a game from scratch (even by licensing an existing engine) similar to what you want to achieve using BI game as a platform is not something negligible. others have done it, RO2/Squad etc but the realistic answer isn't "just needs time and money" b. let's move on, i wasn't bashing you i was talking about a principle. c. define sustainable....? there are mods and modders in this community that have been doing it long before you even heard of arma...what is not sustainable about their content? d. agreed, was happening even before BI "legalized it". But the current system neither regulates or maintains all that much, there are at least as many servers and communities simply ignoring said rules than abiding them. BI also doesn't actively manages it (how could they without a real automated system in place), things needs to be reported on an individual basis, checked rechecked etc... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daphne 52 Posted February 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, dscha said: Is this System you are talking about already active or do i miss something? Yes, you can report monetized communities if they are using your mods without your permission on a monetized server: https://www.bistudio.com/monetization/approved/arma3 They will grant the server owner a period of time to delete the mods from their server, if they do not co-operate, they will get their monetization license revoked and bohemia will proceed with further action against said community. But keep in mind Bohemia can only do something legally if there is a violation of their EULA. -Kane Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daphne 52 Posted February 14, 2017 9 minutes ago, PuFu said: a. i was thinking we were talking about realistic ideals not utopia ones. The amount of knowledge time and money to create a game from scratch (even by licensing an existing engine) similar to what you want to achieve using BI game as a platform is not something negligible. others have done it, RO2/Squad etc but the realistic answer isn't "just needs time and money" b. let's move on, i wasn't bashing you i was talking about a principle. c. define sustainable....? there are mods and modders in this community that have been doing it long before you even heard of arma...what is not sustainable about their content? d. agreed, was happening even before BI "legalized it". But the current system neither regulates or maintains all that much, there are at least as many servers and communities simply ignoring said rules than abiding them. BI also doesn't actively manages it (how could they without a real automated system in place), things needs to be reported on an individual basis, checked rechecked etc... a) It was just a shortened defintion. ArmA as a platform already provides a third party content creator with the "basics". Realistically speaking yeah it would take a lot of effort, work and time compared to making a mod. c) Sustainable in the sense of being able to keep paying the developers and gaurantee the user constant support and updates. This might not be mandatory for a lot of other content, and may only apply to our project. d) Yeah, this is a common problem in arma. Many people don't have the courtesy to even ask a modder if they can use their work, and regardless of their answer they will do it anyways. It will always be hard for someone to shut down another community, they have their own website, their own servers. etc. I think regulating (even with the shortcomings like you mention) it is a better solution than no solution at all. -Kane Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dscha 147 Posted February 14, 2017 10 minutes ago, daphne said: Yes, you can report monetized communities if they are using your mods without your permission on a monetized server: https://www.bistudio.com/monetization/approved/arma3 They will grant the server owner a period of time to delete the mods from their server, if they do not co-operate, they will get their monetization license revoked and bohemia will proceed with further action against said community. But keep in mind Bohemia can only do something legally if there is a violation of their EULA. -Kane My posting was filled with nothing but pure irony. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
das attorney 858 Posted February 14, 2017 18 minutes ago, daphne said: c) Like I said, free and sustainable don't go together. You should probably go and tell an organisation like Wikipedia that their model is flawed. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chairborne 2594 Posted February 14, 2017 15 minutes ago, daphne said: Money is required to cover such a project as ours, I wish this was different and that everyone would work for free. Money is required when you need to hire professionals to do the job that is usually done by dedicated community members for free (which is what happens in 99% of modding projects in arma). Free and sustainable don't go together. For you. Because it works for everybody else not just in arma but in a plethora of other games, and the rare unicorns with paid mods are games that require legitimate professional and engineering skills that you can't just learn by reading a wiki page in 15 minutes (not to mention technical data gathering, which usually translates in very expensive books and the likes), case in point DCS and FS (and im sure there's more, all of which most likely have in common one thing, that is extremely detailed simulation). 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daphne 52 Posted February 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, das attorney said: You should probably go and tell an organisation like Wikipedia that their model is flawed. I was referring to our community, not the model as a whole. 9 minutes ago, Chairborne said: Money is required when you need to hire professionals to do the job that is usually done by dedicated community members for free (which is what happens in 99% of modding projects in arma). That's a great thing! we also have people that work on our project for free. However paying professional 3D-modellers, programmers, designers etc. opens up for our community to make more content in a shorter time span, the user commits to us, and in return we commit to them. -Kane Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
das attorney 858 Posted February 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, daphne said: I was referring to our community, not the model as a whole. I see no difference Kane. Wikipedia provide a service that everyone enjoys, and their users are happy to support it with donations. Given that is fact, then if other service providers give a good enough service, then their users should be more than happy to cough up some cash to keep them running. I would assume that would be the case for your server. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
m1lkm8n 411 Posted February 15, 2017 I'm curious to know how many of these mods are stolen from the community members you are replying too... either way if you need a sweet shed I got one for you 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daphne 52 Posted February 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, das attorney said: I see no difference Kane. Wikipedia provide a service that everyone enjoys, and their users are happy to support it with donations. Given that is fact, then if other service providers give a good enough service, then their users should be more than happy to cough up some cash to keep them running. I would assume that would be the case for your server. There was a period in which we were not monetized, during that period we saw that we weren't making enough money to cover our developers and staff. This model does not work for us unfortunately, I am sure however that it may very well work for others! 2 minutes ago, m1lkm8n said: I'm curious to know how many of these mods are stolen from the community members you are replying too... either way if you need a sweet shed I got one for you That is a legitimate concern for modders, including mine. However you are free to check out our modpack to make sure we haven't stolen anything: ftp://158.69.123.192/@A3PL/Addons/ -Kane Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
das attorney 858 Posted February 15, 2017 1 minute ago, daphne said: There was a period in which we were not monetized, during that period we saw that we weren't making enough money to cover our developers and staff. This model does not work for us unfortunately, I am sure however that it may very well work for others! That's a very polite way of dodging the question. Let's leave it for other readers to judge. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bad benson 1733 Posted February 15, 2017 45 minutes ago, das attorney said: You should probably go and tell an organisation like Wikipedia that their model is flawed. or the arma/ofp modding community for that matter. worked just fine forever only fueled by pure will power lol. not even necessary to go outside the armaverse to find an example. it's fine, if people want to make money with mods. everyone has the right to have an opinion. it gets sketchy however when there is a personal interest involved and arguments don't hold up 2 seconds of examination. like when it comes to this topic, having been a member of this community forever, i kind of think the bigger picture is more improtant than the personal interest. i have well over 150 k subscribers on steam i think (haven't checked in a while) and at some point i was a little bitter that i only received donations from very few people who were almost all beta testers/friends or people i gave extensive individual support without the intention of getting anything back. but when i got frustrated about not even ever receiving a donation of 1 buck, thinking with that subscriber count it's all it takes to make something, i realised it's tainting what made me start this in the first place. me wanting that feature myself and just passion for the thing itself and conquering the challenge. sure i would love for people to be more grateful for ongoing updates and fixes. but you can't force them and that is good. that's not what a donation is. and if you get one it makes you appreciate it even more even if it's from a friend and not some entitled stranger. also, something cool for free is a beautiful thing. look at blender. projects like that make me believe in humanity. now i know i sound like a hippie. but maybe that's just because i am one 26 minutes ago, m1lkm8n said: either way if you need a sweet shed I got one for you lmao! 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
das attorney 858 Posted February 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, bad benson said: now i know i sound like hippie. but maybe that's just because i am one Yes but you're my favourite German hippy mate! :) 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fresh- 6 Posted February 15, 2017 On 2/12/2017 at 9:00 AM, djotacon said: Sorry but I dont believe nothing of your history, sound like "horror" history for kids. I see in this debate newbies "parachuting" in this thread speaking about the "armaggedon"... Ok lets check your history. In the sims racing theres very few game that have a "huge" mod scene in the last years. None of this mod can be "monetized" mainly because they are using pro-cars - or copyrighted content- in his mods but even with that there's only two big scenes with this amount of mods: RFACTOR scene: Completely active today Race07 scene: With mods this year but abandoned because the main sim now isn't updated and the company was shut down. None of two scene was monetized ever. Can you give me more "facts" about your "history" to prove this "incredible history"? I don't need to prove anything, and it's not 'horror history', it's what happened, and i lived it. Funny enough that you mention rFactor, i was once lucky enough to steward the largest rFactor community website as admin, the one my bosses once thought to 'liquidate', and which was eventually made to run 'sustainably'. That website was like a baby to me for almost 4 years, and since i left, i don't think those tasked with taking it over have released many mods, if any. In fact, i think the site might literally be 'neglected'. So hopefully that 'community' now lives in the official forums, but i doubt it's still as active today as it was a few years back. I think Assetto Corsa has now taken the mantle, and for good reason. Point being, it was precisely an aspect of 'monetization' that eventually led to the inherent downfall of that 'community', or at least its primary 'meeting ground', even if you weren't aware of it. But more importantly, as somebody else mentioned in the comments, introducing 'monetization' into modding potentially introduces copyright liability and other unwanted complications. Many people don't realize that when replicating 'assets' into the game engine, in some cases, a form of copyright infringement can have taken place. Again, from my personal observations within a similar environment, if one creates replicas of existing 'content' (planes, vehs, guns, products) for a free mod, no profits = no foul. In fact, perhaps it's deemed as 'free' advertisement and considered a positive thing. On the other hand, if your 'content' is sold or generates 'revenue', and is based off of existing 'base models' for which BIS may not hold a license, then you're now facing an entire different set of circumstances, depending on your 'revenues', and why that saying goes, 'money changes everything'. Chairborne said it best in a roundabout way, these communities should be left for the folks whose primary drive is passion, fun, learning and collaboration, not profits. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fn_Quiksilver 1636 Posted February 15, 2017 i don't quite get why people are attacking daphne if his server is voluntary by all parties (relevant addon makers are okay, players are okay, admins are okay) then what is the problem? arguing against money and profit in general is just silly also: - maybe ~750 hours spent actually playing arma - does not count all the time spent in notepad++ and VS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
m1lkm8n 411 Posted February 15, 2017 Hmmm...offered us to look at files to make sure nothing is stolen but the files are all ebos. Interesting since I doubt any of you own vbs. Im all for people making money but to do it by riding the coat tails of hard working modders is a shame. A slap in the face at those who work hard just for the pleasure and fun. But anyway. I actually created a new buldozer cursor tool if you guys need it... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
R0adki11 3949 Posted February 15, 2017 12 hours ago, daphne said: Money is required to cover such a project as ours, I wish this was different and that everyone would work for free. Free and sustainable don't go together. Sorry i really don't understand why you believe money must be used to make a project like yours work, there are plenty of other Arma3 communities that don't need money to make their projects work. I am sorry to say but Arma Life communities for me will always be the cancer of Arma (OFP, Arma1, Arma2, Arma3 etc). 9 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
taro8 806 Posted February 15, 2017 I don't really get the people that buy stuff they can't afford and then cry they are broke, demanding they need to bailed out of their own mistakes. If you can't afford to keep up your project you either overextended, or jumped into too deep waters. 101 of saving money: DO NOT DO STUFF YOU CAN"T AFFORD! Want to make money out modding skills? Make a game. Unity is available for download for anyone interested, good starting point as any. I do want to create a mecha strategy game in a future and I do realise that I lack the skills. That is why I decided to jump deeper into arma modding, to learn more, improve my skills, ask people around for opinions etc. I was modding games for years and years, for free, but it did let me gain experience with stuff I would have never had an opportunity to work with ever. This experience allowed me to get the job I have now (as shaky as it is). Money is fucking super-mega-space cancer to modding. I was there, in the trenches when the paid Skyrim modding hit. It was a COMPLETE SHITSHOW! Money breeds greed and evil. You want friendly, helpful community? Don't poison the well with money. Sure people are dicks to each other all the time, but Hey! Welcome to real life! At least people in in the forums wont stab you to steal your groceries. The reason why gamedev communities are able to function as well as they are, even when money is involved, is because the customer base is HUGE and diverse, everyone can get a piece of the pie. Arma mod user community is tiny, tiny fraction of that, so all modders would be in position of competing with each other for the finite resource of money that SOME people would be willing to pay for mods. The community is too small to go though this without a complete meltdown. I wonder how many hours it will take for mod piracy to crop up, if paid modding ever happens to infect Arma. Forever Free 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
road runner 4344 Posted February 15, 2017 43 minutes ago, m1lkm8n said: Hmmm...offered us to look at files to make sure nothing is stolen but the files are all ebos A tool that caused a LOT of issues between BIS, and Mikero and the creator when he released both the encunter and decunter, his youtube video page was quickly shut down, now nothing remains, he really did put the cat amongst the pigeon's with that little tool. Personally There's only really one reason why you use ebo's if you're not a developer, and that's to stop people from checking contents, partly because they're using other peoples stuff, and partly because they're more secure to stop people ripping from them.. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gossamersolid 155 Posted February 15, 2017 2 hours ago, road runner said: Personally There's only really one reason why you use ebo's if you're not a developer, and that's to stop people from checking contents, partly because they're using other peoples stuff, and partly because they're more secure to stop people ripping from them.. Agreed. Basically the same concept as people obfuscating their scripts as well under the guise "I don't want anybody to steal my missions". If you ever learned off of anybody else's scripts/code and then you go around and purposely make your's unreadable - you're a piece of shit. This community was built upon people learning off of each other and helping each other out. As long as credit is provided, I see no harm in people learning off of each other's work. I always encourage people to feel free and use my work, as long as credit is provided. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alwarren 2767 Posted February 15, 2017 15 hours ago, daphne said: That is a legitimate concern for modders, including mine. However you are free to check out our modpack to make sure we haven't stolen anything: ftp://158.69.123.192/@A3PL/Addons/ That is actually not how it does (and should) work. Modders should not be required to check your modpack to make sure you haven't stolen anything, YOU should check your modpack and make sure you haven't stolen anything. This is exactly the thing I effing hate about the monetization. In theory, I should not have to look myself if someone stole one of my mods. In reality however, I have had so many cases that I can't really count them anymore, and some only because some other modder was the victim of the same thieves and notified me. It's a pest. I am not implying, or try to imply, that you are stealing anything, but surely you see why this is a serious concern for us modders. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
