Server monetization program

[skruis 180]

Well the primary issue in my eyes is how monetized servers are able to load mods from a source other than an explicit link to the workshop. If you restrict them to the workshop then it should be trivial to verify if they're using an authors officially released addon and/or to also to get a copy of the addons they're using so that you can compare to your own source if you suspect theft. Theft of comparable source is something that will always be an issue (and that's a global software development issue, not just for ARMA addons) regardless of whatever mechanism is used to authorize content on a monetized server but at least via the workshop, there are (I'm guessing Valve has this) mechanisms in place to claim infringement and have an item de-listed which will break the monetized servers 'pack' which will cause problems for their members. In this way, you also pressure the monetized server community to be more legit. Members are not going to want to pay monthly fees to a server that is 'broken' on a weekly basis due to infringement claims. You'll see paying members leave shady servers because the 'hat' they paid for was pulled from the server because the actual author filed an infringement claim with Valve. By establishing a requirement in the server software that monetized servers define workshop id's in order to load workshop published addons, you're automatically, by the function of the process, weeding out the illegitimate monetized servers AND you're protecting the investments of paying players by clearing the community of shady servers. In my eyes, forcing monetized servers to use only workshop content protects the community.

[hbeiramar 12]

I think charging access to a server shouldn't be allowed.

[kklownboy 43]

Modders should be paid.

Its about distribution. And the only way everybody can get paid is thru Steam. You cant play or host a MP game with out it.  It would actually be very easy for Steam to do this. ( I think they will in the near/next two years.  Windows Cloud/UWP/Xbox can play PC folks who have Cloud OS. Will force them too.)

 

Some variation of VAC for paid content, on Servers that make money. They steal they are shut down.  That costs them money so they need incentive $.

Which brings the whole who owns it when it on Steam. Then its a contract.

 

How would Steam be on the side of the Creators and not on the Server owners? Has to be in there interest to pick a side or mange it. Heck they could shut down any server now.

 

For me I think Creators over Servers. Duh...  Would I pay for a Server slot.. I already do in or group... Would I pay for a mod to use on or server... maybe, but I already do some donations. Would I charge players to play on our server.. NO. f-no

 

Would it just be easier to get/buy the   "RHS Steam join a Server Package"   to join RHS monitized servers. Yeah I would. As long as the Mod received the largest portion of the payment.

 

Would it be easier to just get a monthly subscription to "Mods are us Super Steam Package for Monetized Servers on Steam". Yeah it would be.

 

The sooner the better.

 

 

 

 

 

[das attorney 858]

@kklownboy - you make an interesting point.

 

In theory, let's say RHS decided they wanted to monetise, but under these current rules, they can't charge a penny for their mod.

 

They could circumvent it by buying/renting a load of servers and updating their licence so no-one except them can use their mod on monetised servers.

 

Then they monetise their RHS servers and everyone would flock like moths to a light to play them.

 

Obv, other server owners could host RHS content, but then they couldn't charge money for players to play on them...

 

I'm not saying they should do that (they have already stated they will always be free, plus they're too classy to do something like that), but potentially they or anyone else could; which would probably fracture Arma more than it is already.  That's why these current rules are silly imo.

[Alwarren 2767]

The easiest solution to the entire dilemma is to just not allow monetization for anything. Fair solution. Nobody gets to exploit other people's work, nobody gets the short end of the stick. Anything else is causing an imbalance. It's magnitudes better to keep the effing money out of this.

 

If we start charging for addons, then it will essentially kill any cooperation. Ask me if you can use one of my weapons? Well, no, I sell those, and me giving it away to you means I might sell less. Or if I don't sell my weapons, and you sell your pack, then I won't allow you to use any of my stuff because essentially you make money out of my stuff when I don't.

 

Sorry, but I'm with WOPR - the best move is not to play. Keep money out of this mess. 

[das attorney 858]

Ha, WOPR is my PC's name!   (It's not as good as film WOPR obv).

[Varanon 892]

12 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

 

not allowed to think ...

 

not allowed to feel ...

 

gg

Sigh... right... no arguments

[Varanon 892]

12 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

Of course the situation as it is is unfair, that is bc there is no fair and reasonable solution which doesn't also carry a lot of risk for BI.

Yes there is: Just keep money out of it. There, fair, and no risk

[PuFu 4600]

5 hours ago, das attorney said:

@kklownboy - you make an interesting point.

 

In theory, let's say RHS decided they wanted to monetise, but under these current rules, they can't charge a penny for their mod.

 

They could circumvent it by buying/renting a load of servers and updating their licence so no-one except them can use their mod on monetised servers.

we wouldn't need to change the EULA, we (the RHS) being the only ones that own the mod are also the only ones can monetize it...

 

Quote

 

Then they monetise their RHS servers and everyone would flock like moths to a light to play them.

 

Obv, other server owners could host RHS content, but then they couldn't charge money for players to play on them...

 

I'm not saying they should do that (they have already stated they will always be free, plus they're too classy to do something like that), but potentially they or anyone else could; which would probably fracture Arma more than it is already.  That's why these current rules are silly imo.

 

i actually thought about doing that out of protest for the current situation. we could stop all distribution, update and connect RHS addons to some server hosted addon that works as a key - as in you wouldn't be able to even play RHS in SP without a full RPT of addon x requires addon y (or even better add a new section in all p3ds that would require a texture that we don't provide, making sure that you can't even write new configs for it), much less host RHS, and then monetize a few servers (there are TONs of such "private mods" out there, a lot of shady quality)...add default textures to full pink (weapons and all gear and vehicles) all other camo skins needing a purchase - just a cosmetic enhancement, isn't it (within current rules btw).

 

don't freak out, won't happen

[das attorney 858]

Sorry, I was under the impression that you allowed your mod to be monetised by some servers.  I think I was confusing RHS being allowed to be used on some KOTH setups to allowing monitisation for servers.  My bad dude.

 

Anyhow, I can see how you had that notion.  You would probably make 10x the money on server income versus actually being allowed to sell the mod,plus you guys could come up with some "non-gameplay" items to sell to idiots for extra dollar.

 

In addition, you guys are really on the ball when it comes to filing DMCA's to Steam for unauthorised mod uploads, but then it wouldn't be a problem for you in that regard, and it would become Bohemia's problem as they would have to take action against anyone hosting your stuff and trying to make money (all under the current agreement criteria)!

 

Win for mod-makers and lose for server hosters & BI.  End customer still ends up paying so status quo is preserved!  ;)

 

Obv, I say that all in jest, but yeah, mod makers are getting screwed over and server hosters are doing very nicely.  If some mod did that in the future, then tbh it wouldn't surprise me, and BI would have to suck it up as they made this all possible.

[kiory 405]

17 hours ago, Alwarren said:

The easiest solution to the entire dilemma is to just not allow monetization for anything. Fair solution. Nobody gets to exploit other people's work, nobody gets the short end of the stick. Anything else is causing an imbalance. It's magnitudes better to keep the effing money out of this.

Except, peoples work was getting exploited, and addon creators were getting the short end of the stick, before this whole server monetization thing. 

 

Now? Well now addon creators are getting doubly fucked because they can't monetize fuck all, and server operators are all laughing their way to the banks, and even if it did revert back to the old days, the damage has been done, and addon creators will STILL get fucked over, regardless.

 

:edit, toilet thoughts: 

People fail to realize that the majority of the community was already toxic before monetization came along, it's one of the reasons why I don't spend much time here anymore. A lot of you were victims of stolen work, people passing it off as their own, myself included. Money wasn't even involved, perhaps having a paywall will actually diminish that.

[djotacon 190]

If there's no money involved you cant afford a layer and dont make a sue to protect your own assets.

 

No money in mods, no professional acknowledge, no rights, no nothing.

 

Instead insulting people or treating people to avoid this debate I suggest to the "toxic" modders in this forum came to the real world and I think if they want belongs to the real society and leave the fairy world.

[das attorney 858]

37 minutes ago, djotacon said:

If there's no money involved you cant afford a layer and dont make a sue to protect your own assets.

 

Do you think someone could afford a lawyer with the proceeds from their weapon-pack mod?

 

If you do, then you're in "fairy world".

[djotacon 190]

1 hour ago, das attorney said:

 

Do you think someone could afford a lawyer with the proceeds from their weapon-pack mod?

 

If you do, then you're in "fairy world".

 

Do read the previous post?

 

I think the point of the debate right is: can the mods get money for his creations?

 

But as usually in this forum the "toxic" comment appears entering in a personal way.

 

Get lost.

 

Back on topic:

 

Right now we have a "wolderful world" of rat kids that believe that all the addons in this world are free - even the DLC - because important industry lobbiers make a great campaing to avoid that the modders can't make money for his "work".

I read in this forum explanations like this is a "hobby", or the modders can't ask money for a mod.. and other interested opinions based in the idea that a modder is like a "dog" that can live with "bones".

 

Seeing a entire scene of modders with proffesional skils - see FFAA, or RHS- that cant get money for his work is a complete nonsense.

 

Right now a lot games support the game content provided for modders inside the game - Warframe, Killing floor, etc -, BIS can choose that way or other, but hide the modders from the society like a new form of "slavery" isnt the right way of the XXI.

 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

lots of hostility in here

 

bystanders watching and seeing crabby addon makers, not a good look :)

[djotacon 190]

Asking the rights of the worker class is "crabby"?

 

Asking the right of ask money for a work is a nonsense?

 

The real problem is inside the modder scene is full of people that dont have a idea that means work with software.

[veles-zv 176]

I dislike server monetization, however I feel that each member should contribute to a donation that covers his slot around 2 to 3 dollars is a good amount. as for people stealing mods and using them in monetized server its a very low class practice and should always be frowned upon.

 

As for us modders I feel like one should not put so much effort into a mod if you feel so protective over it, its hobby after all. one should change their attitude over their work and what they release, if you have a mindset that this content is for all to enjoy and the people who take advantage over my work is not the community in which I created this you will have no issue. at the same time I really hated the controversy over fallout 4 modding competition, but anyway fallout 4 was a big joke in every way and no amount of community made mods will save it. 

[kiory 405]

8 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

lots of hostility in here

 

bystanders watching and seeing crabby addon makers, not a good look :)

Nah man, I wasn't being hostile, just venting some frustrations and pointing out that the community (not necessarily the modders themselves) have a less than stellar reputation, before servers were able to monetize. Thieving, backstabbing, in fighting, too much fucking drama, and the addon creators were always the ones on the receiving end.

I'm just sick and tired of hearing that money is the devil, when it could actually benefit the community, certainly modders would have more protection for their work. I know personally for me, if it came to fruition (which I have serious doubts about), I'd take it upon myself to share whatever knowledge I could, write up some tutorials, go through my process, this would only enrich the whole economy and level the playing field, which means more content for everyone. Right now I can't do that, because.. well, time is money and I just don't have time right now, so you see the dilemma. 

I've been fortunate enough to turn my hobby into my job, and I'd be lying if I said that wasn't my overall goal. It's another reason why you don't see me around much anymore, I'd love nothing more to work on Arma mods all day, I was pretty passionate about it, but it doesn't pay the bills at the end of the day.

Saying that, I still think BI would have to have a much larger role in doing QA, or at the very least, much trusted community members/modders to do the QA for them. They can't be selling utter tat, no one wants shit assets.

Anyway, I know people don't really give a shit for what I have to say, I'm mostly disliked these days, I know that, but just my two cents.

[PuFu 4600]

8 hours ago, djotacon said:

Do read the previous post?

he did, but maybe next time you use english when you post, that'd help getting that point of yours across

 

Quote

Right now we have a "wolderful world" of rat kids that believe that all the addons in this world are free - even the DLC - because important industry lobbiers make a great campaing to avoid that the modders can't make money for his "work".

I read in this forum explanations like this is a "hobby", or the modders can't ask money for a mod.. and other interested opinions based in the idea that a modder is like a "dog" that can live with "bones".

 

Seeing a entire scene of modders with proffesional skils - see FFAA, or RHS- that cant get money for his work is a complete nonsense.

 

Right now a lot games support the game content provided for modders inside the game - Warframe, Killing floor, etc -, BIS can choose that way or other, but hide the modders from the society like a new form of "slavery" isnt the right way of the XXI.

what?

modding is a hobby. if you want to turn that from a hobby into a profession, feel free to do that, a lot have..

 

There is no "slavery", no one is making me mod, i am doing because i want to. That said, the issue here is that the server monetization leads to:
a. shady content being used by different groups (ripped content, stolen mods etc)

b. 3rd party mods that were meant as no commercial purpose

 

 

[Alwarren 2767]

12 hours ago, kiory said:

Except, peoples work was getting exploited, and addon creators were getting the short end of the stick, before this whole server monetization thing. 

 

Now? Well now addon creators are getting doubly fucked because they can't monetize fuck all, and server operators are all laughing their way to the banks, and even if it did revert back to the old days, the damage has been done, and addon creators will STILL get fucked over, regardless.

 

I completely agree. When I say "Keep money out of it", I include server monetization. None of it should be about the damn money.

[bad benson 1733]

while i agree that things can get toxic, i don't like the picture that is being painted. seems too generalised to me. while the stuff described definately happens i also met some really nice people in this community and made friends even.

i also think it's naive to think money will not make it more toxic. imho of course.

 

when i lose faith i go to the scripting section of this forum. sure there is the occasional noob getting yelled at for not googling properly but overall you see people helping eachother and learning super fast due to it.

 

2 hours ago, PuFu said:

modding is a hobby. if you want to turn that from a hobby into a profession, feel free to do that, a lot have..

 

agreed. the game industry is booming.

 

 

[kiory 405]

4 hours ago, bad benson said:

while i agree that things can get toxic, i don't like the picture that is being painted. seems too generalised to me. while the stuff described definately happens i also met some really nice people in this community and made friends even.

i also think it's naive to think money will not make it more toxic. imho of course.

 

when i lose faith i go to the scripting section of this forum. sure there is the occasional noob getting yelled at for not googling properly but overall you see people helping eachother and learning super fast due to it.

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree, money could potentially make things more toxic, hell it probably would, but conversely, it's pretty naive to think that it won't help at all and assume the worst, nobody can truly know what the outcome would be, nor know what would happen to the community, it's all speculation at this point and speculation leads to worry, worry leads to people sticking to their old ways and not progressing. If I had stuck to my guns, took the moral high ground yada yada, I wouldn't be making money at all right now and probably wouldn't have a roof over my head at this point, money is essential, not evil, people are evil.

I also remember us being friends, but falling out due to some bullshit, I can't even remember why.

 

[Guest]

I agree that all content generated by users MUST be free and server owners can make anything they want to earn money.

Period.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I voted no for all three things.

 

My stance is, just like modders passively invest their resources into making free mods, so should the server hosts invest theirs into free servers.

 

If BI wants to monetize servers, the stipulation should be 100% vanilla content that BI makes, or actually getting hands on with all the dirt and consequences of monetizing brings into such a multifaceted community where one thing affects a dozen others. Maybe that would encourage them to actually make content people want to play instead of going "Hey everyone we make a sandbox where you can do anything ... as long as you make it".

 

Besides, can you imagine the opposite scenario where monetization of the servers was prohibited, but monetization of addons was permitted?

And then the server host makes a mod for $5 that you have to have to play on a free server?

Sounds like shit? Damn right.

 

With that said, the simplest solution if you are not comfortable in a world where people will take things you made and make them into other things for other purposes you do not like is not to release them.

Anything you release to public can and will be remixed into something you don't like without your permission, no matter the license, price, protection or whatever.

 

You are not living in a world where things like this can be controlled, someone is always bound to get fucked over one way or another, someone will always find a better scheme to take more money for less time invested.

You can lawyer up, defend it all you want. You might win a battle, but you'll never achieve the state where no things will remixed.

 

So there are 3 ways to look at it:
1) Release stuff and don't concern yourself with what happens to it

2) Make money out of your skill with more reliable means

3) Give yourself an ulcer fighting windmills

[Alexis_74 0]

The opening of the free monetization in any case will not go to the detriment of the game, administrators will be more on the content of their projects, more money on advertising, more advertising more players on the servers more players more than the sale of the game, the more players the more popular mods itself a game. In relation to the modders, I never felt sorry for some of the money to give to people who are trying for the Arma community. I think many owners of the servers will agree with me, we are also ready to pay royalties to all whose content we use, whether BIS or the author of some modifications. The community is still waiting for an official response from BIS leaders, I hope you can not make a long wait!

 

Kind regards!