Jets - Hitpoints

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

On 1/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, Talon2321 said:

Could someone please fix the issue with the throttle and make it more controllable and precise?

I've made a perfect suggestion a while ago when it was relevant, on how Throttle could be better handled. No sauce.

[Asheara 214]

Hello,
thanks for your interest and feedback in the new hitpoint system! I'll try to answer some of the questions for you:

Quote

Why is the left rudder hitpoint called "HitLCRudder" amd "HitLCElevator", but right one is called "HitRRudder" and "HitRElevator" ? Has this special meaning?

Yes, it does - LC stands for "Left or Central" - for cases the individual plane has only one of these controls instead of two.

 

Quote

Why implement all these hitpoints on the vanilla planes, if AA cannon hits damage all the hitpoints pretty much equally? 

The released plane with hitpoints is still in a way work in progress. Armor and damage values will be tweaked, it's not even its final form! When releasing hitpoints on Wipeout, its main purpose was to show to community how it will be done, so there's something to look forward to and prepare their mods, and we didn't do this fine tuning of the values yet. However, it's on the list!

Quote

There are 2 undefined hitclasses on the wipeout (Hit point name " ")

Those are hitpoints for the lights :) Not explicitly defined in the config like the rest. However, try to shoot the light, you'll see it's getting the damage.

 

Quote

Hello! I would like to chip in with a few suggestions!

I actually work with aircraft systems, from Power Plant to fuel systems, landing gear, flight controls, air conditioning and more. I hope I can be of good use and a resource to the new damage mechanics. What I would like to share is a few simple but immersive hitpoint changes/additions to ARMA jets. All of my ideas will be heavily oriented around real-life aircraft system design, with regards to the arma 3 engine limits and timeframe before DLC release!

 

Thanks a lot for your suggestions and feedback! It is indeed very valuable to us, and we'll do what we can about it. I'll happily look into it, however, you're right that we'll need to fit it in the timeframe before the release and the list is already quite long :)

[teabagginpeople 398]

On 25/02/2017 at 1:06 AM, darksidesixofficial said:

I've made a perfect suggestion a while ago when it was relevant, on how Throttle could be better handled. No sauce.

 It's kinda a big deal one would think. 

 

Cheers for the detailed reply Asheara.

[eriktrak 76]

Any plan on hitpoint degradation due to airframe stress? For example: rudder damaged - but still functioning - and pilot doing manoeuvres which stress significantly the airframe (high speed turns) therefore the partially failed rudder degrades to an unusable state?

 

   

[Strike_NOR 898]

9 hours ago, eriktrak said:

Any plan on hitpoint degradation due to airframe stress? For example: rudder damaged - but still functioning - and pilot doing manoeuvres which stress significantly the airframe (high speed turns) therefore the partially failed rudder degrades to an unusable state?

 

   

As much as we would love to see this, I am pretty certain this would require Take On Helicopters RotorLib style improvements to the fixed wing flight model, which I think the devs already have confirmed they will NOT have the time to do.

 

So... let's hope for modders to create those kind of scripts with the new possibilities of more hitpoints to choose from :)

[x3kj 1247]

On 2.3.2017 at 7:43 PM, Strike_NOR said:

So... let's hope for modders to create those kind of scripts with the new possibilities of more hitpoints to choose from :)

That would require beeing able to read accelerations or forces in the 3 axis via script, which you can't currently. You can only get it "in proxy" from animations that use this as source, or show it in a dev overlay in dxdiag.exe

 

On 27.2.2017 at 2:18 PM, Asheara said:

Yes, it does - LC stands for "Left or Central" - for cases the individual plane has only one of these controls instead of two.

Does that mean that in case of a central version (i.e. if there is no Right sided Hitpoint of this), that a hit to ,say, HitLCElevator will automatically prevent any pitching of the plane?

 

Quote

Those are hitpoints for the lights :) Not explicitly defined in the config like the rest. However, try to shoot the light, you'll see it's getting the damage.

The unnamed hitpoints for lights and also unnamed selections can be an issue when trying to use Set- and GetHitPointDamage script command for generell usage (also, every turret and gun has the same class name when getHitpointdamage is concerned)

Edited March 4, 2017 by x3kj

[JoshuaZBB 2]

We need sensors and targeting pod (TGP) inside the cockpit cam!

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by JoshuaZBB

[Asheara 214]

On 3/4/2017 at 2:01 AM, x3kj said:

Does that mean that in case of a central version (i.e. if there is no Right sided Hitpoint of this), that a hit to ,say, HitLCElevator will automatically prevent any pitching of the plane?

Yes, indeed it should work like that :)

 

On 3/4/2017 at 2:01 AM, x3kj said:

The unnamed hitpoints for lights and also unnamed selections can be an issue when trying to use Set- and GetHitPointDamage script command for generell usage (also, every turret and gun has the same class name when getHitpointdamage is concerned)

Yes, I know... however, i'm not sure if anything can be done about it (well, everything is possible, this is just outside of my power / config power), as hitpoints for the lights are being generated automatically by the engine based on "hitpoint" parameter in Reflectors subclasses. But I'll note it down and investigate whether anything can be done about it. You pointed out a nice case with the scripting, good sir! 

And to JoshuaZBB - nice and valid suggestion. However still a lot to be done and it's nearly upon us!

[Warlordz 0]

Quote

And the challenges you may face include:

• Leaking fuel
• Reduced / complete loss of thrust after either one / both engines have been damaged
• Malfunctioning HUD and MFDs
• Gear that is no longer retractable if you landed too roughly
• Loss of control authority and adverse flight tendencies (a gameplay counterpart to tailrotor loss in helicopters) after taking hits in wings and control surfaces

 

This is some good stuff.

My concern though, is that Bohemia will still slack off when it comes to the actual points of penetration from the shrapnel. If a missile hits, because of it's bland and "super-simple" damage system, the aircraft will receive random malfunctions instead of them being accurate to what got hit. 

Let's not forget that a tank just had to fire at one engine on a jet to render the pilot dead. 

HOPEFULLY Bohemia adds a "Ricochet" system to jets (and tanks before the DLC even comes out because... logic) so that jets can survive more gunfire; heavy or light. 

 

I also want Bohemia to add spasms after taking damage so that even with the HUD flickering or dead, the jet continues to face malfunctions like thrust decreases and failed(or forced) weapon discharges.

Would be cool.

[Strike_NOR 898]

9 hours ago, Warlordz said:

Would be cool.

 

There are so many variables to consider in real life, that even DCS-quality simulators have to make sacrifices. 

 

Consider that arcade style games use a simple hitbox/hitscan damage model.

You fire the gun, a random line is traced from the gun based on "accuracy" properties and the engine detects if the "line" touches a hitbox. If it does, the hitbox has a damage coefficient that draws from the players HP pool.

 

This is good old Call of Duty or Counter Strike mechanics.

 

Then you have Battlefield. It uses ballistics, so each bullet physically travels through air with a trajectory based on muzzle velocity and gravity. It does, however, deal a fixed amount of damage when it collides with a hitbox.

 

Finally you have ArmA. And please correct me if I am wrong, but here the bullet is fired from the gun, with a certain muzzle velocity, projectile mass and air-resistance. This projectile travels until it hits something. Once hit, a whole new set of parameters are calculated, such as bullet energy, target material and angle of impact. This determines what the next step will be: will it ricochet? Will it penetrate, and if so, how far? What happens after penetration? Does the bullet exit with less velocity, a new angle etc?

 

Additionally you have different damage types in ArmA, indirect damage (explosions) and penetration damage (based on hitpoints, firegeometry etc) which determine what the projectile will do inside a vehicle.

 

The point being, all of this requires heaps of CPU power to calculate. Now imagine a minigun in ArmA, firing at 2000 rpm, that's like a whole CPU benchmark.

 

Many games, like battlefield, "simulate" miniguns by shooting relatively few projectiles per second (maybe 4 RPM), but they deal splash damage on impact. When coupled with visual effects (like many tracers and many impact effects) it gives the appearance of firing 4000 RPM. The game, however only fires 240rpm, which saves LOADS of CPU power, but is not realistic at all. This means that if you are standing next to the point of impact, you are really taking splash damage from the minigun and not direct damage, like in ArmA. In ARMA, it is the actual bullet that kills you.

 

One thing ArmA does not do by default, is generate shrapnel projectiles. Some mods manage to do so (ACE mod), but they are resource heavy. A real life experiment with a 155mm artillery shell showed that it produced about 2000 fragments. Think about computing that in a full-blown artillery strike in Arma, where each fragment has calculated trajectories, air resistance, penetration, ricochet and energy. 

 

I believe what ACE does is a compromise where it scans the area for objects within the fragmentation radius, then sends X amount of fragments towards those objects. This gives the impression of 360 degree fragmentation, but only uses resources calculating the ones that are likely to strike players.

 

 

To get to my point:

 

As far as I know, planes in ARMA 3 can ricochet projectiles. I have seen this when firing 50 cal tracer at attacking aircraft. If I strike them at an angle, the tracers may actually bounce off the plane. As far as HE ammunition goes, I am not 100% sure, but I do think they can ricochet also. Bullets to calculate penetration on ArmA aircraft, for instance you can shoot through the floor of a helicopter and kill the crew. You can shoot through a wing or tailfin also if the caliber is high enough (or rather if the weapon penetration is high enough).

 

However, ArmA deals with explosives in a strange way, which, if you ask me, needs to be updated before Tanks DLC. To my knowledge it relies on Indirect fire damage, which is an exponential damage that correlates with distance to target. The closer you are, the more HP you lose. This is fine for high explosive weapons that simulate a blast/shockwave. But what about missiles? Most Anti-Tank missiles, for example, are designed to kill by a high-explosive blast that is focused on a tiny spot. These come from so called "hollow charges" or "shaped charges". Some weapons also create Explosively Formed Penetrators. These charges are designed to penetrate very thick armor. I have not verified this, but I heard a rumor that BI have implemented "submunitions" for missile-type weapons. This means that as a programmer, you can make a missile spawn a high-velocity projectile upon impact that will rip through the target and cause direct damage. This is way better than using the previous indirect fire damage that will deal splash damage to everything within its radius. Overall this gives a much better simulation of defeating armored targets.

 

 

 

When it comes to Anti-Air missiles, they are most often designed to kill by fragmentation. The companies that develop these missiles acknowledge the fact that hitting a highly maneuverable target, moving at high speeds at great distance is really hard. So chances are that you will physically miss the target. Therefore, many Anti-Air missiles come with proximity fuses or built-in software that recognizes a near-miss. This will cause the missile to detonate, even if it's ~10m off to the side. An AA-missile's warhead is usually a quite small amount of explosive, wrapped in either metal rods or pellets that create a "cloud" of shrapnel. These will easily shred through aircraft aluminium and damage internals such as fuel systems, computers, wires, engines, hydraulics etc.

 

However, ArmA does not simulate the individual projectiles. 

 

The great news is: We now have more hitpoints. We now have the possibility to damage more things on aircraft. This makes jets extremely more vulnerable to small-arms fire and AA guns. Missiles will probably still continue to deal only indirect fire (splash damage), meaning that if your right wing gets hit by a missile, everything within X amount of meters from the point of impact will take damage, no matter what.

 

But, consider what I said earlier about mods. ACE does simulate fragmentation, so imagine they just copied the code to Anti-Air missiles and lowered the explosive damage. This means that missiles would work more like in real life, where fragments can kill the pilot and damage individual hitboxes (systems) more randomly.

 

Either way, Aircraft Hitpoints is a huge win :)

 

 

 

 

I recommend anyone curious to the damage of Anti-Aircraft missiles to watch the conclusion of the dutch air crash investigation video on flight MH 17. 

 

[dragon01 902]

4 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

Many games, like battlefield, "simulate" miniguns by shooting relatively few projectiles per second (maybe 4 RPM), but they deal splash damage on impact. When coupled with visual effects (like many tracers and many impact effects) it gives the appearance of firing 4000 RPM. The game, however only fires 240rpm, which saves LOADS of CPU power, but is not realistic at all. This means that if you are standing next to the point of impact, you are really taking splash damage from the minigun and not direct damage, like in ArmA. In ARMA, it is the actual bullet that kills you.

Actually, that's exactly what ArmA does, too. If you don't believe, fire up Virtual Arsenal and spawn a minigun-armed vehicle, then shot a short burst near an AI unit (but miss it). You'll see it take a small amount of damage, despite all bullets going to the side of it. On the other hand, it takes less damage than when directly hit with a bullet of the same caliber. This is very obvious in VA. Another, a bit more subtle, example is when you try to hit somebody by "sweeping" the minigun around and spraying an area with it. You'll score a lot less hits than you'd expect to, because the damage output is actually concentrated around individual "physical" bullets as opposed to spread evenly.

 

I'd love to see realistic miniguns, but IIRC, this is an engine limitation.

[GBee2 68]

36 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

Actually, that's exactly what ArmA does, too. If you don't believe, fire up Virtual Arsenal and spawn a minigun-armed vehicle, then shot a short burst near an AI unit (but miss it). You'll see it take a small amount of damage, despite all bullets going to the side of it.

 

I'm sure if someone fired a minigun in my general direction I'd suffer some damage, probably a heart-attack or physical debilitation resulting from a chronic panic attack. I would also do permanent damage to my underwear.

[dragon01 902]

Sure. But a bullet stream whizzing past you wouldn't cause holes in your arm to magically appear. :) 

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Chances are if someone firing a minimum in your direction, your running for your life without a second thought. XD

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

I am LOVING these hit point updates.  I've been doing a lot of dog fighting testing and in one session I had to belly land my aircraft because the landing gear was damaged.  Fantastic work BI!!

 

Things like Zu-23 and other bullet-based anti-aircraft are now going to be a genuine threat as even a single hit can render your flight control systems damaged which means either pushing on with the mission in a damaged aircraft or having to return to base.

[Strike_NOR 898]

16 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Actually, that's exactly what ArmA does, too. If you don't believe, fire up Virtual Arsenal and spawn a minigun-armed vehicle, then shot a short burst near an AI unit (but miss it).

 

Actually I have no problem believing that. It's just less obvious in ArmA than in games like Battlefield.

 

7 hours ago, Imperator[TFD] said:

I am LOVING these hit point updates.

 

Word!

[x3kj 1247]

On 10.4.2017 at 4:54 PM, dragon01 said:

Sure. But a bullet stream whizzing past you wouldn't cause holes in your arm to magically appear. :) 

doesnt happen in arma. Minigun bullets simply deal AoE damage like explosive weapons on impact

[dragon01 902]

It does if the bullet stream lands somewhere nearby. This, by the way, reduces the effectiveness of "sweeping" a rapid fire weapon even more - if you're not firing from above, the bullet stream is far less dense than it should be, and as long as the bullets don't actually impact the ground close to the target, there's no effect. "Spray and pray" and walking your shots is a valid technique with real miniguns, but in ArmA, its difficult to actually hit anything if you try that.

[arkhir 135]

On 11.04.2017 at 0:23 AM, Imperator[TFD] said:

I am LOVING these hit point updates.  I've been doing a lot of dog fighting testing and in one session I had to belly land my aircraft because the landing gear was damaged.  Fantastic work BI!!

Wait, WHAT?!

 

You can now belly land without exploding in goodness gracious great balls of fire? How?!

 

Things like Zu-23 and other bullet-based anti-aircraft are now going to be a genuine threat as even a single hit can render your flight control systems damaged which means either pushing on with the mission in a damaged aircraft or having to return to base.

Too bad we didn't get a good old AAA without the combined missile capability for Greenbacks :D But the DLC is awesome anyways.

[dragon01 902]

Actually, their IFV does a surprisingly good job with its main cannon.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

5 minutes ago, arkhir said:

Wait, WHAT?!

 

You can now belly land without exploding in goodness gracious great balls of fire? How?!

 

You sure can mate!  Well at least in the To-199.  When I tried it in the Buzzard I failed but that was only 1 attempt.

[arkhir 135]

Quote

Actually, their IFV does a surprisingly good job with its main cannon.

Haha, yes, it most definitely does. Brought me down in a Xi-an during one of our missions when my JTAC failed to notice me I'm taking cannon fire. LOOKED like a .50 from the ground, so I shrugged it off, and oh boy was I surprised...! :D

 

Quote

You sure can mate!  Well at least in the To-199.  When I tried it in the Buzzard I failed but that was only 1 attempt.

Sick. I was REALLY hoping they'll introduce belly landings when I saw the "GEAR" hitpoint. You hyped me up fam, I'm downloading Dev Branch.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

4 minutes ago, arkhir said:

Haha, yes, it most definitely does. Brought me down in a Xi-an during one of our missions when my JTAC failed to notice me I'm taking cannon fire. LOOKED like a .50 from the ground, so I shrugged it off, and oh boy was I surprised...! :D

 

Sick. I was REALLY hoping they'll introduce belly landings when I saw the "GEAR" hitpoint. You hyped me up fam, I'm downloading Dev Branch.

 

Haha, just wait mate.  Tanks now target low flying aircraft with their main cannons.  I've been shot down twice now on Dev Branch while trying to strafe armoured columns with the Wipeout.

[arkhir 135]

That's good.

 

You definitely should get punished for flying low&slow!

[five_seven5-7 56]

Where is the structural damage now that we have mach 1+ jets? A heavy loadout plane pulling to many GS when its traveling too fast should be consequences