1.54 Fatigue is too Unrealistic

[Von Quest 1163]

What the hell, I'll chime in as well...

Like BL1P, I haven't had much time to play myself, but... So far I think it's a good step forward. I like it. I really do. Maybe this will change as I play more. But right now for the few games we tested this past weekend. We liked it. It makes the upper end of Fatigue more harsh, but its more gentle on the lower end.

In other words, it definitely makes the weight/loadout a better simulated factor that you must manage. But at the same time, you can still jog for a very long time. (Did somebody say forever?) I like it. I think it's a great balance between simulated weight/fatigue and game-play.

The title of the Thread is 'too unrealistic'. Really? So you want it to be more harsh? More realistic would put a cap on the infinite jogging. It's a great balance. A lot of whining going on because we can't sprint everywhere with 200lbs of gear on? C'mon.

BIS also gave us numerous scripting options to plug into to change/fix/enhance/etc this new system.

I think alot of people are getting all worked up partly because BIS put in the visualization bar so you can see what's going on. Just turn that off in your options then. But the mechanics are good (the weapon-sway may be a whole other can-o-worms).

I have a theory though... I wonder if BIS did this Fatigue overhaul thing because they want to branch out into more official Multiplayer endeavours like these tournaments (End Game) and things they are doing.

My 1.7¢

[Beagle 684]

Von Quest

 

You may not have noticed but the main concern we now have it not the stamina or fatigue itself but the new sway and muzzle climb even with rested weapons on bipods that was introduced with 1.54

[shadowze 1]

Been playing since the original OFP demo days

 

I think that the new system makes the game un-enjoyable, I know some are happy with it (more power to you sir)

But a lot of us are not, it would be nice to have this easily configurable with a game setting / flag or something similar

 

Mods to fix this would not be my prefered option, just give us and easy way to configure these options please BIS

 

 

Main gripe is the amount of sway when holding a gun or even binos, it could literally make you sea sick

 

Its kinda turned Arma3 in the the Michael J Fox simulator .....................

[ineptaphid 6413]

So having read this whole thread,I think we can agree that while some of us like the old fatigue,some like the new and some like no fatigue, we are all agreed that the big problem is the sway yes?

I think fatigue is something one can manage and is not too intrusive, but SWAY is the issue for everyone.

[bad benson 1733]

actually. sway was my only problem with the old system too. i'm fine with some penalties but don't make me go ape shit with my aim after casually jogging around. now the problem is too slow recovery of sway. should be great with some tweaks though.

[devilslayersbane 28]

I feel like a better option to sway would be a recoil multiplier. Maybe not arcady amounts like 2x for a fully fatigued soldier, but 1.5x or 1.4x. BI, would this be possible with the new recoil?

[jone_kone 158]

So having read this whole thread,I think we can agree that while some of us like the old fatigue,some like the new and some like no fatigue, we are all agreed that the big problem is the sway yes?

I think fatigue is something one can manage and is not too intrusive, but SWAY is the issue for everyone.

 

Pretty much. I would even almost accept it as is if it would affect binoculars etc. so much. Sure irl you´ll always get some wobble when using binos, but in arma its now really hard to compensate for and really hard to stay on target or make terrain sweeps. With the gun and a sight I find it easier to compensate for the sway and I consider handling it more of a learning thing.

 

Also the sway gives good reason to carry a short and light gun if you´re going room clearing. So in that sense I kinda like it. It does what fatigue does... you really have to think about your loadout now. Before, using a carbine was useless, now it makes much more sense.

[semiconductor 309]

Also the sway gives good reason to carry a short and light gun if you´re going room clearing. So in that sense I kinda like it. It does what fatigue does... you really have to think about your loadout now. Before, using a carbine was useless, now it makes much more sense.

How come? Is there any noticeable disparity between machine gun/rifle and carbine/submachine gun sway? Does sway makes any difference at <50m ranges?

Your post reminded me about Arma 2's features I miss in Arma 3 - weapon collision with surrounding objects and weapon inertia. These were two main reasons why carbines and submachine guns were actually kinda useful - good luck squeezing through a narrow passage/making a fast 180 degree turn with that PKM of yours. In Arma 3 there is almost no point in less powerful but more compact weapons because you literally can navigate buildings with M107 or M240 just as well as with Glock 17.

[sic-disaster 311]

I like the new system, but I do agree that the sway can be a bit too much. Now, I do not care about the sway in an unsupported position. That is fine, and I honestly sometimes prefer a 'non-realistic' method to achieve a more realistic end result. The reason I put 'non-realistic' in between tags is simply because we are in the end dealing with a videogame, which can not handle every single thing exactly like real life. There will always be limitations to what you can do in a virtual playground. In the end, I think it can be good to put in some gamey systems if the end result is more authentic gameplay (example: one might argue that going into ironsights is extremely fast, but because some people can do it in real life they should be able to do it in the game since it's realistic. The end result however is people nearly insta-scoping people as they run around. Now if you make it so that ironsights take a considerable amount of time to put up, you might argue this is unrealistic. But the end result may be that people slow down their movement, walk around more with ironsights already pulled up, and thus manoeuvre more tactically, which is more authentic.)

 

We already have a good weapon resting and bipod deployment system in place. The only thing that is really needed is for these things to be a little more effective a little bit quicker. I get that after sprinting with a ton of gear it is hard to keep your sway in check, since I'm out of breath and my muscles are shaky. But if I plunk my rifle down on a stonewall and press it down with my weight that doesn't require either steady breathing or stable muscles.

Arguably it should be a little harder to press your rifle up against the side of a tree or a building for the same kind of stabilisation. But the sway while unsupported is fine. I don't have a ton of real life experience (though I do have a little) so I can't argue the realism aspect of it. But from a gameplay point of view it will lead to people thinking about their loadout and how they scale various terrains, while moving from cover to cover to have a supported firing position. And that is a good thing, even if the mechanics that get the player to do it are not 100% realistic. I think it's safe to say that for example playing as an AT Rifleman is fairly messed up, since he has a requirement to carry his heavy gear but is severely punished for it almost constantly. In the showcase mission where you play as one (combined assault or something), it is nearly impossible to hit anything no matter how much I walk and keep my jogging to a minimum, even from supported positions. It takes too long for those to be effective.

[Beagle 684]

I like the new system, but I do agree that the sway can be a bit too much. Now, I do not care about the sway in an unsupported position.

In that case I recommend you try a laser designator, Binocular, Range finder or a RPG... weapons and system that can't be supported are not supposed to be supported and still are effected till uselessness. The current Stamina swayn  backfires into a lot of game mechanics not related to rifles at all.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Just one important notice:

 

Don't lower your weapon anymore. You spend bit more stamina when weapon is lowered in the same distance because you move slower.

 

So keep your weapon up, to move faster and spend less stamina.

 

///

Oh and little addition. Maybe not all of the people have even think about this:

If you know that you will be covering a longer distance and there's no threat of getting shot after you've spent your stamina, always use sprint. Always use your stamina pool out with your sprint. If you don't, you're just stupid because it's slower to run the same distance. Unless you've an option and time to just walk anywhere but I believe 99,999% of the players won't do that. Of course it can introduce some sway but you can lie prone and with a good luck rest your weapon and be ready to shoot anyone pretty soon. In CQB you maybe want to reserve stamina for some tight situation, but anywhere else don't do that. It's not likely worth to save any stamina until you get close.

 

 

Have fun.

[Beagle 684]

Just one important notice:

 

Don't lower your weapon anymore. You spend bit more stamina when weapon is lowered in the same distance because you move slower.

 

So keep your weapon up, to move faster and spend less stamina.

 

///

Oh and little addition. Maybe not all of the people have even think about this:

If you know that you will be covering a longer distance and there's no threat of getting shot after you've spent your stamina, always use sprint. Always use your stamina pool out with your sprint. If you don't, you're just stupid because it's slower to run the same distance. Unless you've an option and time to just walk anywhere but I believe 99,999% of the players won't do that. Of course it can introduce some sway but you can lie prone and with a good luck rest your weapon and be ready to shoot anyone pretty soon. In CQB you maybe want to reserve stamina for some tight situation, but anywhere else don't do that. It's not likely worth to save any stamina until you get close.

 

 

Have fun.

all of this makes no sense at all from a real life perspective...just like GTA.

[seba1976 98]

all of this makes no sense at all from a real life perspective...just like GTA.

I think he's trying to point out how silly all the system is, that you can exploit the shit out of it.

[dav 22]

The stamina is unrealistic sure, even a load of 12.7mm magazines can slow you down too much. This will stop players on public servers running around with 4 AT missiles, Mini-Spike and a .338 LMG with ammo boxes. You need to pare it down a bit.

This video shows a more realistic loadout,

the standard Arma player always wants to carry unrealistic amounts of gear. But the weapon sway is unrealistic for sure. A weapon on a bipod should not sway at all and this makes sniping at even 1100 meters annoying. VBS had rock-solid mounted weapons with no sway or recoil when firing. Even with a Browning M2.

In this video, the weapon is rock-solid on a bipod whilst firing, and this is a PKM.

So why does the Navid and the BLUFOR LMG have so much upwards recoil?

Why? Because Arma lost the plot when it went with fake weapons and future warfare. It's on a roll, why stop now.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[galzohar 31]

How come? Is there any noticeable disparity between machine gun/rifle and carbine/submachine gun sway? Does sway makes any difference at <50m ranges?

Your post reminded me about Arma 2's features I miss in Arma 3 - weapon collision with surrounding objects and weapon inertia. These were two main reasons why carbines and submachine guns were actually kinda useful - good luck squeezing through a narrow passage/making a fast 180 degree turn with that PKM of yours. In Arma 3 there is almost no point in less powerful but more compact weapons because you literally can navigate buildings with M107 or M240 just as well as with Glock 17.

 

Actually, while Arma 2 had weapon collision, in reality most weapons had the same collision length, regardless of their actual length. For example, an M4A1 would have the same collision in-game as an M16A4. This meant that sometimes your weapons would collide with a wall even though they should pass through, and some weapons would pass through walls. In Operation Arrowhead they reduced the effect to be less noticeable, which just made the weapons pass through walls even more. In Arma 3, it seems like they completely did away with the feature, which is good considering it was never really functional.

 

If they could implement it in a realistic fashion it would have been great, but I don't miss the horrible implementation Arma 2 had.

 

 

All the exploits you need to use to get the most out of the current system is just stupid.

Sprinting shouldn't be the best way to start a long marathon (covering very large distance as fast as possible).

Running shouldn't be infinite if it's so fast (more than 9-10km/h with gear).

[Beagle 684]

Actually, while Arma 2 had weapon collision, in reality most weapons had the same collision length, regardless of their actual length. For example, an M4A1 would have the same collision in-game as an M16A4. This meant that sometimes your weapons would collide with a wall even though they should pass through, and some weapons would pass through walls. In Operation Arrowhead they reduced the effect to be less noticeable, which just made the weapons pass through walls even more. In Arma 3, it seems like they completely did away with the feature, which is good considering it was never really functional.

 

If they could implement it in a realistic fashion it would have been great, but I don't miss the horrible implementation Arma 2 had.

But now you can see tanks stick their guns through walls...I dont thinks thats a solution at all. BIS has really lost the plot.

But the funny thing is that due to "sway" the question of "stamina" or "fatigue" is now secondary.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Actually, while Arma 2 had weapon collision, in reality most weapons had the same collision length, regardless of their actual length. For example, an M4A1 would have the same collision in-game as an M16A4. This meant that sometimes your weapons would collide with a wall even though they should pass through, and some weapons would pass through walls. In Operation Arrowhead they reduced the effect to be less noticeable, which just made the weapons pass through walls even more. In Arma 3, it seems like they completely did away with the feature, which is good considering it was never really functional.

Yeah it's interesting to hear sometimes arguments about Arma 2 weapon collision. It was actually same or worse to go through a door and in staircase with a pistol than with any rifle and sniper. At least in OA it actually didn't matter at all if you had M107 or Scorpion in your hands, it was the same. I remember that pistol holding animation made pistols even longer than any other type of weapons.

 

The tank barrel collision was likely removed in Arma 3 because AI wasn't good with that inside the towns. Altis towns are pretty dense. It also made tanks flip pretty easily.

[semiconductor 309]

Actually, while Arma 2 had weapon collision, in reality most weapons had the same collision length, regardless of their actual length.

At least in OA it actually didn't matter at all if you had M107 or Scorpion in your hands, it was the same.

Really? That's strange, I remember pretty clearly how I was getting stuck at every building with M240 until I took a rifleman slot with M4. :huh: Maybe the community I played with used some mod to alter collisions (@something-something_advanced_movement?) but I got a clear impression that collision boxes in Arma 2 were working as expected, more or less.

 

Anyway, I would love to see weapon collisions and inertia properly implemented in Arma 3. My inner "Arma 2's grass was greener and also ACE-interactable" grouch starts to grumble each time I see someone rotating around his Z-axis with a speed of a turbofan engine's compressor with little to no penalty towards aim steadiness.

[rasdenfasden 12]

I think the people who are complaining about the new system are used to running around with some pretty nutty loadouts. It's definitely a good thing that weight-induced fatigue is much less forgiving, it really promotes using proper loadouts.

For example, in a TvT I did with my group the other day, I noticed that selecting the light loadouts had a major advantage in mobility that just was not there before. Using a carbine and not bringing excessive amounts of ammo suddenly was sensible!

As for sway being over the top even with deployed bipods, remember that fatigue manifests itself in many ways IRL, some of which are hard to really implement properly in a game.

Yes, your LMG should theoretically be mechanicanically stable when you deploy it while prone. That simply isn't the whole story though.

If you're fatigued, you're gasping for breath, you're feeling light headed, something might be aching, etc. You're definitely gonna struggle getting a good sight picture and stuff. Representing stuff like that with obnoxious effects on screen is a crappy and potentially nauseating solution.

As for sway while standing, just watch a snippet or so of this vid. Look how the poor sod with the BAR (weighs about the same as the OPFOR LMG, minus the massive 150rnd belt) begins to struggle with the weight. While he's no soldier, remember that he isn't carrying as much as one either.

So while excessive weapon sway isn't perhaps a perfect solution, it sure is better than adding weird camera effects and not allowing you to shoulder your gun.

[semiconductor 309]

So while excessive weapon sway isn't perhaps a perfect solution, it sure is better than adding weird camera effects and not allowing you to shoulder your gun.

I think that it should be other way around: player should get sway penalty for carrying too much instead of receiving a reward for carrying little. In the first case player can enjoy normal sway unless he did something very wrong, in the second the sway is terrible unless player does everything right.

 

The problem with sway is that player feels himself completely powerless in regard of sway control. Here's what I'm talking about: I'm crouched, my stamina just had fully recovered from the long run, I'm pushing the RMB button with all the force my middle finger can exert... and yet my weapon still dangles around. WTF, what else the game needs from me? I'm at kneeling position, my stamina bar is full, I'm holding my breath. There's nothing more I can do so why the heck this goddamn weapon keeps wondering around the screen? The game says I'm already recovered, why on Earth my weapon behaves like I don't? This is very frustrating.

Obligatory comparison with A2 mod: ACE had it so much better. It was actually punishing player for carrying too much (by means that include, but not limited to, sway penalty) without being extremely annoying or counterintuitive.

[devilslayersbane 28]

I think the people who are complaining about the new system are used to running around with some pretty nutty loadouts. It's definitely a good thing that weight-induced fatigue is much less forgiving, it really promotes using proper loadouts.

For example, in a TvT I did with my group the other day, I noticed that selecting the light loadouts had a major advantage in mobility that just was not there before. Using a carbine and not bringing excessive amounts of ammo suddenly was sensible!

I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. While I agree that it shouldn't be very forgiving, I also feel like there are better ways to model this.​

As for sway being over the top even with deployed bipods, remember that fatigue manifests itself in many ways IRL, some of which are hard to really implement properly in a game.

Yes, your LMG should theoretically be mechanicanically stable when you deploy it while prone. That simply isn't the whole story though.

If you're fatigued, you're gasping for breath, you're feeling light headed, something might be aching, etc. You're definitely gonna struggle getting a good sight picture and stuff. Representing stuff like that with obnoxious effects on screen is a crappy and potentially nauseating solution.

 As for bipods, bipods became absolutely 100% necessary when the old system introduced the insane sway. Now deploying a bipod just changes the pivot of the sway instead of actually fixing the problem. Even still, with deployed state event handlers they could have made it to where fatigue regenerated more quickly to model how you're not holding the entire f*cking weapon anymore. There could have been a ton of other implementations for fatigue such as induced ragdoll to model passing out, increasing radial blur to model how focused you end up being on one thing after wearing yourself out. And the best part, these could be optional (ok, maybe not the blur). It could be to where you have a new "realistic" setting where you'll start to pass out, and the tunnel vision  would be extremely punishing, etc. If you're saying that these effects aren't obnoxious in real life than you're sadly mistaken. Also, I seem to remember throwing up from nausea at my first PT test.​

As for sway while standing, just watch a snippet or so of this vid. Look how the poor sod with the BAR (weighs about the same as the OPFOR LMG, minus the massive 150rnd belt) begins to struggle with the weight. While he's no soldier, remember that he isn't carrying as much as one either.

This too could be modeled with something other than sway, such as a new LMG specific animation (because most LMG's are rarely fired from the sholder). Also, it should be noted that while he's not carrying as much as a soldier, your body is capable of localized fatigue, meaning that your arms can be tired even when your legs aren't.​

So while excessive weapon sway isn't perhaps a perfect solution, it sure is better than adding weird camera effects and not allowing you to shoulder your gun.

I​ disagree. It's not a perfect solution, and a radial blur to simulate tunnel vision would be a much better solution.

 

[TheBigOne_014 16]

The new fatigue system it's more real in my opinion! But the new weapon Sway!?!?!? Even with the bipod and fresh it's completly unrealistic, it has an incredible amount of sway that is very difficult do counterbalance.

[RakkSolodier3187 2]

This realism took a turn for the worse with this update. Stamina, weapon sway, loadout calculations are the most unrealistic factors making this update horrible. Being ex-military we've jogged, ran, dove kicked in doors and i can't remember being so tired I couldn't hold my weapon on target even if out of breath, and if I couldn't weapon resting worked. Here you sprint 25 feet across a road and can't control your weapon for 10x the amount of time. The loadout system is jacked as well. I remember carrying over 800rnds when I was a saw gunner in Iraq along with a bunkerbuster/at4 at times and all the extra equipment bandages, MRES, water etc that we carry and our plate armor with grenades, and another 200rnd belt with the weapon already holding a drum of 200rnds if you load that amount in game you walk everywhere because your loads to heavy. I'm sorry but ruck sacks weighed over 220lbs entering Iraq and if you needed to move you drop it and or move your a** accordingly. The bipod system and weapon resting needs fixing as it still barely reduces weapons sway. I see things about excessive loadouts and the amounts of ammo brought etc. Unfortunately thats what happens when BF and COD players want to play a realistic game they don't think of reality and run and gun lifestyles.  8-12 magazines is a standard, A rocket launcher of some sort and a spare rnd would help because arma armor so add that and bandages and grenades. 2 frags - smoke smoke smoke,chemlights, food, water not needed in game so extra weight can be spared so extra mag or 3, uniform, equipment, sounds logical to me.  So loadout wise ok, it may be ok but a little overboard. The weapons sway is definitely the most unrealistic thing along with weapons resting and stamina is horrible I think it was closer to real before. That's all I have about this update so far.

[rübe 127]

The weapons sway is definitely the most unrealistic thing [...]

Current weapon sway might even be "realistic" (in terms of distance travelled, not so much the pattern maybe), but that still wouldn't mean that it's appropriately modelled. The extend of sway might be spot on and still translate horribly to the game. Your brain can do amazing things to stabilize your view(!) in real life. I don't think this really works the same while looking at a computer screen. And having an input device without immediate physical feedback (keyboard/mouse) doesn't help either. Hence a proper *model* needs to account for such things.

[seba1976 98]

Spot on ruebe, spot on. That is the feeling I'm getting increasingly with every new realism improvement. I was gonna say more, but yeah, basically, it's exactly what you've said. Thanks.