Ebo files for the community. is it needed?

[nuxil 2]

As the Title says.

After all this mess about copyright/license infregements & Ip theaft that has been in the spotlight recently.

I wanted to hear what your thought about this is.

Would you like to be able to protect your work somewhat by encrypting it in form of a ebo and should Bis give us the choice to encrypt our pbo files?

[haleks 8212]

Well, one thing we learned : once your license has been breached and your worken stolen, there's not much you can do.

Of course this community has been amazing in the way it stood up against A3L - but I doubt the same amount of energy can be raised each time a mod is stolen out there.

(Not to mention that we can't rely on BI on that matter.)

Obviously the best way to deal with that and to protect ourselves is to prevent these thefts - the ability to pack ebo's would be the way to go, imo.

[bad benson 1733]

ebos would shut down reverse engineering which has always been a big part of learning for everyone i know. people have always learned from eachother's work. and it should stay that way. encryption only hurts the wrong people along with the few it is meant for.

i only see this worsening the lack of mutual respect and degree of cooperation in this community. we shouldn't let us all be corrupted by a few corrupt individuals.

[nodunit 397]

Had a post but then brain went blank..

[nuxil 2]

ebos would shut down reverse engineering which has always been a big part of learning for everyone i know. people have always learned from eachother's work. and it should stay that way. encryption only hurts the wrong people along with the few it is meant for.

Not eveybody would release their work in a ebo form.

There are other ways to learn beside "reverse engineering".

Besides one could always ask the author of the ebo how he did. "this & that" if your really curiouse or cant figure that out on your own.

It's very convenient to look at others work. but thats all it really is. convenient.

Since its mutch faster than waiting for a forum reply, a pm, a email etc

If you as a model maker want to protect your work so its less change for it to be stolen and used someplace you would rather not see it used.

Why not let us have the ability to do this. i really dont see the issue and i dont really see how it would hurt the people.

Optional methods for learning besides "peeking at others content"

1 this forum

2 sky & irc groups

3 biki

4 example pack from bis

5 other forums. "armaholic etc"

6 community guides.

7 youtube videos.

8 so on.

Edited November 17, 2014 by nuxil

[bad benson 1733]

tell me. what is the difference between some modders config and a config sample in the "official" samples, the wiki or some forum post?

i agree that the things you listed are equally a part of learning too but you are fooling yourself, if you think anyone ever learned everything he knows about arma modding by it being explained to him/her step by step by someone else. and one of the biggest parts is looking at the actual game files and not just the samples.

you try to make it sound like it's the lazy and cheap way by using the word convenient. but it's not. there is no difference where the knowledge is coming from. are sample models okay to look at because BI said so or because the modellers who made them got already paid for making them and lost the rights to them?

there are even people excessively commenting their code for others to understand it and if BI would give us even more samples or god forbid full access to all models and animations, it would only help modding as a whole. if you don't want anyone to look at what you did you should not publically release it.

there is no difference in the sources of knowledge. there is a difference however between learning from someone's work and ripping it without giving credit. i feel that these days the paranoia of some people is shifting the focus away from th real issue...

i'm not a trained programmer. i literally learned sqf from reading hundreds of scripts and learning to understand what is happening because obviously no one was going to spoon feed me. shame on me easy route i guess :p

[the_demongod 31]

I don't think it's needed. Most of the "regular" arma community (those of us who play arma for what it is, and don't try to turn it into GTA or a survival game) and I'm sure some of the other communities too regularly do a very good job respecting licenses and content. There is nothing wrong with simply pulling apart a mod to see how it works, as long as you don't steal any of the contents.

It's only since this whole A3L life mess (and subsequent large influx of seemingly immature players, both to A3L and to KoTH, etc) that we've actually experienced issues with content infringements and such. I'm sure we'll see large increases of mod licenses that say "Not to be included in Arma Life" from now on, but I have a feeling that after the recent events, people will all be reminded that despite being free, modded content does not in fact belong to you.

It'll sort itself out with time.

[nuxil 2]

one of the biggest parts is looking at the actual game files and not just the samples.

yes this is true. i have most of them depbo'd :p

we learn alot from them.

you try to make it sound like it's the lazy and cheap way by using the word convenient.

Well. in the end this is what it is.

Its convenient because its faster than to dig though 1/2 internett for a solution or wait for a reply from the author.

Also looking at pbo files is not a right we have, its a privilege. this can be changed by Bis if they like.

there are even people excessively commenting their code for others to understand it and if BI would give us even more samples or god forbid full access to all models and animations, it would only help modding as a whole. if you don't want anyone to look at what you did you should not publically release it.

Yes. thats why i said. not everyone would ebo their files.

If some people excessively commenting their code for others to understand i dont think that they would ebo the files.

Let say i spend 900Hours doing my models + texturing. i dont want to see my models end up in. example a mod for cryengine.

Why can i not have the option to both release my work for others to enjoy and protect it at the same time?

there is a difference however between learning from someone's work and ripping it without giving credit.

yes ofcource its different. your even allowed to do this. even if the license sais otherwize.

as long as its for personal use. a copyright act has no meaning in this matter..

if falls under the "fair use , for educational propose etc".

Edited November 17, 2014 by nuxil

[naizarak 4]

no, encrypted files are not the answer. bis just needs to stop being so useless about this whole situation

[shx 11]

(Not to mention that we can't rely on BI on that matter.)

Seriously, why should they?

[...] the ability to pack ebo's would be the way to go, imo.

If the game manages to extract these assets without a unique password, a thief can too.

we shouldn't let us all be corrupted by a few corrupt individuals.

Absolutely. As long as there are humans, there will be people to trying to profit from someone else's work.

even if the license sais otherwize. as long as its for personal use. a copyright act has no meaning in this matter..

Caution.

The question if a certain part of a license might be invalid, depends heavily on the jurisdiction applied.

((While your statement is certainly true for EU member countries, it is almost definitely not true for some other countries. International copyright law is complicated.))

[IndeedPete 1038]

Despite the game itself being proprietary I can only hope both community and BIS content stays "open source". I stopped counting how many scripts, missions and addons I took apart to see how they're working. Of course, there will alwys be people stealing other's work (hell, noticed a guy using one if my textures without asking in his mission on steam just a few days ago). But as others said: By encrypting community content you hurt the wrong people. If you want to create proprietary content or even make money with your work, open your own indie-gamestudio.

Edited November 17, 2014 by IndeedPete

[Make Love Not War 10]

Ebos would create greater damage to the modding community than the problem they are attempting to solve (piracy). Without the ability to learn and build upon the work of others the Arma modding community will largely cease to exist in short order as the barrier of entry for potential newcomers will become far too daunting.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Ebos would create greater damage to the modding community than the problem they are attempting to solve (piracy). Without the ability to learn and build upon the work of others the Arma modding community will largely cease to exist in short order as the barrier of entry for potential newcomers will become far too daunting.

This is a valid point ...

However, I think all modders/scenario designers should have the option to further protect their IP if they choose to release publicly.

If there is money to be made and no penalty for doing so, a market will appear and then whether you like it or not, anything your release publicly will be assigned a market value by those community admins who have a donations button and a large monthly bill to pay, and who stare religiously at the server rankings. If your work has substantial value, some people will do whatever they can to capitalize on that, from scratching your name out, to editing a line here and there, whatever.

This is also a moot conversation, as many community content creators already go to great lengths to protect their IP. Look at KOTH for instance. Ever tried to read the KOTH PBO?

While it was a sting to see the obfuscation, I support Sa-Matra's approach, as that seems to be one of the few ways to at least buy some time to have content you release publicly be used how you would like it to be used, rather than capitalized on by another right away.

So back to the OPs question ... Is it needed?

No, of course it's not needed. But, without it, you--whether you know it or not--have already experienced reduced publicly released content, and will continue to experience less quality released content, proportional to the size of the 'for $$$' market that grows around free and vulnerable mods. The licensing crap is not worth the .txt it's typed on, and all it has ever been for is a leg to stand on if a legal case ever arose. Beyond that, its merely a bluff. Increasingly, communities are calling that bluff and just scratching out the license, since it rightly holds no weight when the person who typed/pasted it isn't willing/able to defend their IP.

EDIT:

As far as solutions?

I think, strategically, the choke point is the server browser.

Edited November 17, 2014 by MDCCLXXVI

[fluttershy 2]

Yes Ebos might hurt the community, especially newer addon makers and people interistied in creating content. Then again, from a personal standpoint, have never turned anyone away asking for help, neither have i experienced anyone saying "GTFO" when i kindly asked for some helpful tipps.

Ask and you shall recieve is the saying right? Ebos could help protect created content from beeing re-release with slight tweaks under a new name but as they would, most likely, involve a tool, that tool can also be backwards engineered and the ebo would just be a more fancy pbo. MDCCLXXVI is right about the Licenses and the willingness by the creators to actually defend their IP. Then again, seeing how low the respect for creators and there content is, considering the latest incidents, no one will stop at a little CC License at the end when it even goes as far as taking content from other games with huge publishers behind them.

The problem isn't really that we need encrypted files or better licenses, the fact that the bastards are blantly stealing from the community, telling the creators to p*ss off plus other involved players do not even realize how much was stolen is what piles this problem up to a giant mountain of angre and hate.

[semiconductor 309]

Despite the game itself being proprietary I can only hope both community and BIS content stays "open source". I stopped counting how many scripts, missions and addons I took apart to see how they're working. Of course, there will alwys be people steeling other's work (hell, noticed a guy using one if my textures without asking in his mission on steam just a few days ago). But as others said: By encrypting community content you hurt the wrong people. If you want to create proprietary content or even make money with your work, open your own indie-gamestudio.

Totally agree. Though I understand and share the anger of modders, ability to learn on other's work is crucial to Arma and denying this ability will be an end of the line for the series.

On the other hand, BI's inaction doesn't helps either.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Semiconductor

[x3kj 1247]

There should be ebo's for the community, definitley for models, textures, animations and maybe sounds. You are not supposed to debinarize models, and you can't edit them anyway, so you could as well put them in the ebo. There is nothing you can learn from sounds, binarized models and animation files, at least nothing you couldnt learn from non-ebo vanilla files as well. Configs are not worth to encrypt, you can read them anyway ingame, and they hold very little "intelectual value" too. Scripts - The author should decide whether it's for everyone to learn or whether it's not.

In the end - even if there are ebo's that wouldnt stop others from getting all of it's content. If you want non ebo version for whatever reason, ask the damn author like you should do in the first place. And you could always use the ebo "as is" together with another addon to change it somewhat.

[koffeinflummi 96]

Have to agree with Benson here, this would be the equivalent of "letting the terrorists win" by acting in fear because of a few idiots.

Yes, you aren't supposed to unpack other people's work, but - as others have said - reverse engineering is important for learning, and as long as you don't release debinarized stuff, noone gets hurt.

[nodunit 397]

Even with a locked pbo wouldn't you still be able to rename the file itself and create some kind of script that links the ingame file to become an extension of another or a file that references the supposed more encrypted file and pushes it onto the mission/server?

I'm asking out of pure ignorance here, I really don't know much about the coding side of things and the other dark wizardry.

[nuxil 2]

Have to agree with Benson here, this would be the equivalent of "letting the terrorists win" by acting in fear because of a few idiots.

Its not about letting them win or act in fear.

Well. fear in the sence that your work can be stolen.

Modeling, texturing, and making animation takes hundreds of hours.

If someone wants to add one extra layer of security to their work, why not let them do this if they like.

and as long as you don't release debinarized stuff, noone gets hurt.

You know. a quick search on google with the right keyword gives you the tool to debinarize models.

So you can be indeed get butt hurt even if its binarized.

And all this about the community will die etc is just bull.

I can equaly say the the opposite. Allowing people to encrypt their work will bring more modders to the game.

Because they know its a rather safe engine to use and with the extra security layer it will make life a bit harder for people to steal your work..

When i say steal your work. i am not just talking about someone in the arma community taking your addon and release as its own.

Im talking about theaft of models/textures etc that can easly be ported to other game engines.

Besides the community at its soul is rather open and helpfull. people do get help when they ask for it.

So i dont see how this will be the end of the community if someone wants to protect their work.

Edited November 17, 2014 by nuxil

[x3kj 1247]

Even with a locked pbo wouldn't you still be able to rename the file itself and create some kind of script that links the ingame file to become an extension of another or a file that references the supposed more encrypted file and pushes it onto the mission/server? I'm asking out of pure ignorance here, I really don't know much about the coding side of things and the other dark wizardry.

Nobody knows how the encryption stuff works. But yes that could be a possibility. Access to some ebo content isnt limited for BIS stuff (e.g. the scenery objects). So unless access is prevented by the game by some other means you can also use it.

But if you for example put a mod icon in it (e.g. like RHS has) it's obvious that you are using this addon. There would be no doubt as to whom it belongs to. You can use it in arma, but you can't use the content by any other mean (e.g. debinarizing the models illegally and selling them on some 3d site, which has happend a couple of times, or using them in other games). And that would be very much ok for me. Clear indication of original author and no use outside of arma.

[koffeinflummi 96]

You know. a quick search on google with the right keyword gives you the tool to debinarize models.

So you can be indeed get butt hurt even if its binarized.

I'm not talking about not releasing debinarization tools. I'm talking about not releasing debinarized content.

Its not about letting them win or act in fear.

Well. fear in the sence that your work can be stolen.

Modeling, texturing, and making animation takes hundreds of hours.

If someone wants to add one extra layer of security to their work, why not let them do this if they like.

I know that things take time. I have spent more than 2000 hours on it myself.

It seems to me that most (if not all) of the people in this thread who actually have spent alot of their time creating content for Arma are saying that this could cause problems...

Edited November 17, 2014 by KoffeinFlummi

[nuxil 2]

I'm not talking about not releasing debinarization tools. I'm talking about not releasing debinarized content.

my point was, binarization of a model isnt really any protection. you can easly debin it.

So you spent 2000h on your model(s). let me ask you this.

what would you do if you find your models on turbosquid or other sites someday for sale. or some other studio bought it from turbosquid and put it into production. when you know you could have prevented this by encrypting your files.

Do you think its as easy to tell them "hey thats my model. stop selling and using it". no its not. its tedious roade to take. you must provide evidence. etc.

You might even have to go as far as take it to court.

If a proffesional modeller worked 2000h on a model. whats its value in terms of money? not cheep i bet.

Edited November 17, 2014 by nuxil

[slatts 1978]

If BIS release a EBO packer. Someone could just reverse engineer that and make a De-EBO tool right?

[nuxil 2]

people can already do that with ollydbg or other debugers.

no encryption is 100% bulletproof

[koffeinflummi 96]

So you spent 2000h on your model(s). let me ask you this.

what would you do if you find your models on turbosquid or other sites someday for sale. or some other studio bought it from turbosquid and put it into production. when you know you could have prevented this by encrypting your files.

I send a Cease and Desist (or, if they happen to be German, which is quite likely, as most of the things I created involve the Bundeswehr somehow, an "Abmahnung") to the person uploading it. If they don't stop, I sue them. That's nothing new. That has happened before, especially in the German community (not to me personally, but to people I know).