Russia General

[sudayev 27]

Russia and China suffered the worst casualties during World War II and thus have the greatest reasons to oppose attempts to rehabilitate Nazism and militarism, Russian President Vladimir Putin said after meeting China’s President Xi Jinping.

“We consider the cynical attempts to rewrite history so that it matches someone’s urgent political interests, to rehabilitate Nazis and their collaborators, as absolutely inadmissible,†Vladimir Putin said in his address to members of the Russian-Chinese conference on the role of USSR and China in the victory over Nazi Germany and militarist Japan in the Second World War.

Militarism, expansionism, historical revisionism and cynism.

Says who ?!?!

[ProfTournesol 956]

We consider the cynical attempts to rewrite history so that it matches someone’s urgent political interests

At least, i agree with that one ;)

[sudayev 27]

The Sino-Soviet Alliance for Friendship and mutual assistance promotes enduring world peace

Edited May 9, 2015 by Sudayev

[Sub-Human 10]

Militarism, expansionism, historical revisionism and cynism.

Says who ?!?!

The history of WW2 has been re-written by both Soviet and Putin government alike many times... At this point it is hard to know what is truth, and what is lies.

As one Soviet veteran wrote, the government tries to present this event as a heroic fight of the Russian nation. When in reality it was a horrible crime against humanity, not just by the Nazis, but by the Soviets, whose leadership massacred millions of Russian soldiers.

Theft and destruction of German property, rape of Russian soldiers (female) by officers, abuse, death squads, 'minefield clearing', just some of the taboo topics Russian media would never talk about.

The fact that Putin makes it a commercial event, full of Georgian ribbons and military showcases, parades and fireworks, is quite pathetic, really.

[Rydygier 1302]

Pathetic or not, so far seem quite effective. Hammer into the own nation's heads from the childhood such way manipulated view on the history year after year, keep before their eyes visions of imminent Nazis threat rebirth, then you can do virtually anything with full public support of Zealots wishing to follow shiny and glorious path of their ancestors, just by pointing "neonazis" anywhere you like... Oh, and optimally condemn such ways as if this applied to the others.

It is so effective not only because people in general want to believe, their nation is great, the best and everything, but also because manipulators are using the truth to build this pyramid of lie - carefully picked parts of the truth to be precise. Excuse me such a cheap pun, but the most durable lies lie not in what has been said, but in what was left unsaid. Far too durable to convince any believer just by talking to him on the some random internet forum. Anyway, it's not about telling the ignored facts, its about the will, the readiness to change the mind in the first place, which is the more unlike to emerge, the bigger worldview shift/revolution it would cause, the more incumbent current worldview is, the more life choices and derived views are rooted in it. Such mental inertia is the common thing. There is chosen/imprinted during whole life subject of faith, and there is a mind serving to it by "proper" interpretation, filtering and assessment of the incoming data to defend and strenghten this subject. Apparently the best, one may expect in this particular case is "others do same or worse", like it would explain anything. No wonder, who in such situation should expect more?

Edited May 9, 2015 by Rydygier

[oxmox 73]

http://i.imgur.com/W76QFBG.jpg

The Sino-Soviet Alliance for Friendship and mutual assistance promotes enduring world peace

Well, the excessive actions of western/US interests actually drives Russia towards China and vice versa, experts warned about it already longer ago....a China-Russian-Axis can be only a nightmare for the western industrial countries.

Edited May 9, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Well, the excessive actions of western/US interests actually drives Russia towards China and vice versa, experts warned about it already longer ago....a China-Russian-Axis can be only a nightmare for the western industrial countries.

You forgot two important points: China only cares about China. And Russia is one of China's commercial and geopolitical opponents.

The China-Russian axis will last as long as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

[Tonci87 163]

You forgot two important points: China only cares about China. And Russia is one of China's commercial and geopolitical opponents.

The China-Russian axis will last as long as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

I think the same. Sooner or later China will again look towards Russia and see all those natural ressources they have...

[oxmox 73]

You forgot two important points: China only cares about China. And Russia is one of China's commercial and geopolitical opponents.

The China-Russian axis will last as long as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

China cares about China, Russia cares about Russia, USA cares about USA, ..... national interests. Yes, China is for Russia a geopolitical issue aswell western/US interest. Russia is actually under pressure and surrounded.

We will see if, how long and deep a closer cooperation between Russia and China will go along. It will be influenced by the confrontation with the geoplitics of the USA but also from Russia and China.

Russia and China

An uneasy friendship (The Economist, May 9th)

THE celebrations in Moscow on May 9th to commemorate the capitulation of Nazi Germany 70 years ago will speak volumes about today’s geopolitics. While Western leaders are staying away in protest against Russia’s aggression in Ukraine (and the first annexation of sovereign territory in Europe since the second world war), China’s president, Xi Jinping, will be the guest of honour of his friend, Vladimir Putin.

Western sanctions over Ukraine, and what looks set to be a long-term chilling of relations with America and Europe, has given Russia no option other than to embrace China as tightly as it can.

Next week, in a further symbol of the growing strategic partnership between the two countries, three or four Chinese and six Russian naval vessels will meet up to conduct live-fire drills in the eastern Mediterranean.

The exercise, which follows several similar ones in the Pacific since 2013, aims to send a clear message to America and its allies. For Russia the manoeuvres signal that it has a powerful friend and a military relationship with a growing geographic reach

Relations between China and Russia have been growing closer since the end of the cold war. Both, for different reasons, resent America’s “hegemony†and share a desire for a more multipolar world order.

--> As fellow permanent members of the UN Security Council, both with autocratic governments, Russia and China find common cause in sniping at Western liberal interventionism. ( *A reason for worldwide NATO expansion and semi-memberships ? An adventurous path...)

The two countries settled all of their long-standing border disputes in 2008, just a month before the Russian-choreographed war in Georgia. Russia saw the deal as a way for it to concentrate more of its military forces in the west as a deterrent against the further expansion of NATO.

As long as Russia could sell to Europe all the gas required to keep the Russian economy growing, it could put deals with China on hold. These included plans for two gas pipelines from Siberia into China that were announced in 2006 and then quietly dropped as the two sides bickered over prices.

All that has changed. The Ukrainian crisis is, as Russian media put it, forcing Russia to “pivot†its economy towards Asia in an effort to lessen the impact of Western sanctions by finding alternative markets and sources of capital.

--> For China it is a golden opportunity to gain greater access to Russia’s natural resources, at favourable prices,as well as to secure access to big infrastructure contracts that might have gone to Western competitors and to provide financing for projects that will benefit Chinese firms

In theory, Russia’s incursions into Ukraine and its seizure of Crimea violate two of China’s most consistently held foreign-policy tenets: non-interference in other states and separatism of any kind. But China abstained from voting on the UN Security Council resolutions condemning Russia, while Chinese media have given Russia strong support. China has quietly welcomed a new cold war in Europe that might distract America from its declared “rebalancing†towards Asia.

But problems ahead are discernible. One is that both countries are competing for influence in Central Asia, once Russia’s backyard

Mr Putin wants to establish his Eurasian Economic Union partly to counter growing Chinese economic power in Central Asia, through which China wants to develop what it calls a Silk Road Economic Belt. (* probably not only counter China but also the EU and the US, the root of their definition of a new "sovjet power" isnt it ?)

China is using the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation (SCO), of which Russia and Central Asian nations are also members, to boost its security ties in the region as well: it often holds counter-terrorism exercises with its SCO partners. Another difficulty is Russia’s military and energy links with countries such as India and Vietnam, both of which are rivals of China. But the biggest problem of all may be Russia’s irritation with being forced into an increasingly subservient role in its relations with China. For Russia the partnership with China has become painfully necessary. For China it is nice to have, but far from essential.

more:

http://www.economist.com/news/china/21650566-crisis-ukraine-drawing-russia-closer-china-relationship-far-equal

Edited May 9, 2015 by oxmox

[drebin052 323]

Sooner or later China will again look towards Russia and see all those natural ressources they have...

Molotov-Ribbentrop isn't really a valid comparison. There isn't going to be a swarm of the "Yellow Horde" streaming up into Vladivostok or Moscow any time soon.

The mainland government has zero interest in annexing any part of Russia through force of arms simply because they don't need to. Why waste effort and manpower on a blitzkrieg (that they would win if nukes weren't involved) when they can just buy their way into the country? Set up a company here and there, bring in Chinese workers, purchase all the available real estate legally or through other under the table means, and eventually displace the local Russian population. And presto! Welcome to the new province of Haishanwei!

The Kremlin wouldn't object to it. After all, you wouldn't bite at the hand that feeds you now would you?

I should add that this is a "strategy" that is being employed throughout much of the world too. It's just less...visible in some regions.

[astral4eg 10]

The history of WW2 has been re-written by both Soviet and Putin government alike many times... At this point it is hard to know what is truth, and what is lies.

As one Soviet veteran wrote, the government tries to present this event as a heroic fight of the Russian nation. When in reality it was a horrible crime against humanity, not just by the Nazis, but by the Soviets, whose leadership massacred millions of Russian soldiers.

Theft and destruction of German property, rape of Russian soldiers (female) by officers, abuse, death squads, 'minefield clearing', just some of the taboo topics Russian media would never talk about.

The fact that Putin makes it a commercial event, full of Georgian ribbons and military showcases, parades and fireworks, is quite pathetic, really.

You're so funny...

Rhetoric similar to a typical Ukrainian, I'm guessing.

Now let's proof to official sources (not tabloid press)

[Sub-Human 10]

China cares about China, Russia cares about Russia, USA cares about USA, ..... national interests. Yes, China is for Russia a geopolitical issue aswell western/US interest. Russia is actually under pressure and surrounded.

We will see if, how long and deep a closer cooperation between Russia and China will go along. It will be influenced by the confrontation with the geoplitics of the USA but also from Russia and China.

China is using Russia as a cheap gas pump. Just like dozens of small countries in Africa, Asia, Europe and Americas used USA and USSR for financing of their infrastructure, economy and military whilst pretending to be friends. The difference being, of course, that China is under no threat of invasion.

Other countries, mainly in Europe (Bulgaria, Greece), also pretend to like Putin in exchange for a few billion dollars they can get off him.

You're so funny...

Rhetoric similar to a typical Ukrainian, I'm guessing.

Now let's proof to official sources (not tabloid press)

Read memoirs by authors such as N. N. Nikulin, whose works were published a good 30 years after he wrote them.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Sub-Human

[Tonci87 163]

You're so funny...

Rhetoric similar to a typical Ukrainian, I'm guessing.

Now let's proof to official sources (not tabloid press)

If the whole world agrees on one version of history, but only Russia has a different one (since Putin came to power), what does that tell you? I already told you, all information should be available to you for research in the russian archives.

[mistyronin 1181]

Rhetoric similar to a typical Ukrainian, I'm guessing.

Now let's proof to official sources (not tabloid press)

We already commented you different books, documents and sources. A lot of them inside Russia and kept by the Russian Gov.

The Red Army during WW2 was a completely mess, full of criminals and perverts.

A good metaphor of how the Red Army "liberation" of Europe was, is that when the Russian soldiers "liberated" concentration camps like Auschwitz or Ravensbruck they raped systematically most of the female inmates and beat or sent to the Gulag the Russian males. What kind of monster could rape a woman that is more a skeleton than anything else because of food deprivation, sickness, torture and long confinement.

Only in Poland and Germany more than 2 million babies are accounted due to the Red Army rapes. There's even reports of Red Army soldiers gang raping old ladies. That was encouraged by Stalin himself (there are some orders that prove that "war sex partners" were even recommended). Not to talk about the diaries of generals like Zhukov were you can see how "he cared" about his soldiers, bulling them and using them as cannon fodder.

In honor to truth it was not all of them, there's a few accounts of proper officers that shot some of their crazy soldiers for raping or stealing.

And the best of all, is that as I told you, all this information is collected in the Soviet Archives in Moscow. That's the only good thing about the Soviet bureaucracy that they kept everything documented, even their worst crimes.

[Tonci87 163]

The advance of the red army was so liberating that they east europeans had a hard time to decide who was worse, the germans or the soviets. For them one great evil got replaced by another.

[sudayev 27]

Only in Poland and Germany more than 2 million babies are accounted due to the Red Army rapes. There's even reports of Red Army soldiers gang raping old ladies. That was encouraged by Stalin himself (there are some orders that prove that "war sex partners" were even recommended). Not to talk about the diaries of generals like Zhukov were you can see how "he cared" about his soldiers, bulling them and using them as cannon fodder.

Liberation to some, enslavement to others.

In my region known for production of cement, all cement plants were plundered ekhm...ekhemmm... "liberated" from machinery, soviets they also liberated railroad tracks leading to plants. People had to start from scratch because the only things the soviets left for them - were revolutionary slogans written on the wall.

Nevertheless they were taking everything. Farming equipment, tools, livestock, grain supplies, household items, bicycles, watches (the more the better) electrical wiring, chemicals and toilet seats as well...

Do you know when and where the largest cattle runs happened in Europe? When Soviets "liberated" entire cattle and livestock from terrains of Poland. Very little were left to locals, usually animals of "second quality" and not anyone could count for farm animal - only ones loyal to the new communist authorities. In terms of today's dollar value, the amount of robbed materials reaches up to 54 billion $ (depending on the used calculator). And yet it would still not include interest ...

Regarding rapes... Where I live there is a large number of Silesians and German minority. Soviets were very cruel for them and anyone could count for gang rape, from little children to weakened old people. Those who survived this often share their testimonies which are very drastic and memorable. Soviets were also "taking revenge" on useful objects as well. Once I read in memoirs of one survivor from 1945,after she, her mother and her grandmother were multiply raped (which resulted in death of her grandmother), the Soviets decided to desecrate the bakery. More than 20 men defecated inside the stove as it was a toilet. People had to demolish it and build a new one.

For example in city of Poznań, Soviets made an announcement they need a group of young Polish girls to help in field hospital. The girls showed up... and they were raped later on. Such "wild times" were only tolerated by Soviet command only first few hours upon entering (but there were exceptions to this rule), but it was enough for evil to be done. These are small examples, but such things were taking place anywhere where the "liberation" front went though - Czechoslovakia, Hungary...

Soviets had also good excuse for killing people - because of the anti-communist resistance movements aka Cursed Soldiers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_soldiers they have sworn to weed out. If you decided not to share food with hungry and thirsty Soviet men - bullet in the head or tortures at the NKVD-affiliated security office for refusing in building of socialism. Stalinism at it best.

Here is some reading, it's based on historical publications which list you can find at the end of article. Translates well into English

http://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/2015/05/08/rosja-jest-nam-winna-54-miliardy-dolarow-poznaj-prawde-o-tym-jak-sowieci-ograbili-polske/3/

http://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/2015/04/26/mamy-prawo-do-wszystkich-polek-sowieckie-gwalty-nad-wisla/

Edited May 10, 2015 by Sudayev

[astral4eg 10]

About of rapes:

from wiki, translated by goole

Estimates of the number of raped:

Estimates of the number of women raped range from tens of thousands to two million. German historian Miriam Gebhardt leads estimate that US soldiers raped nearly 190 thousand women at the end of the Second World War. D. Herzog agrees with the view that in the eastern zone of occupation were "of one to two million of rapes" soldiers of the Soviet Army.

Irish journalist Cornelius Guan in his book «The Last Battle» claimed that the estimated doctors, with whom he said have been raped in Berlin from 20 000 to 100 000 women.

The American journal «October» in 1995 in an article by Professor Atina Grossmann «A Question of Silence: The Rape of German Women by Occupation Soldiers» reported the details of how these numbers were derived. According to her, despite the collapse of the Nazi state, the health care system continued to function. In Berlin, a doctor with the consent of the Protestant churches did to clients - victims of rape, abortions are free. All that was required of women - is to provide written evidence of its signature (affidavit). Such evidence has been obtained to Berlin from 20 000 to 100 000 (the researchers admit that some of them - false). The article says Grossmann uniformity of all these "evidence" - the rapists they mostly described as "Asian or Mongolian type."

Number of 1.9 million across the occupied territory were received feminists Yor and Zander «on the basis of Hochrechnungen (projections or estimations)» - that is, extrapolation and estimation.

Measures of the Soviet command to combat violence and looting

In an article published in the English language book describes the fact of decisive intervention of the Soviet command to stop the abuse of German women and children, namely, the three men were hanged in front of part of the violence against the Germans.

In the four years of war and occupation by the Soviet Union lost over twenty million people were killed at the front, shot and tortured in captivity, killed in bombing and shelling of Soviet cities, slave labor and terror in the temporarily occupied territory. In the course of only one Berlin offensive Soviet troops lost more than 78 thousand. Killed and more than quarter of a million wounded. Death and deprivation during the war came to every Soviet family, and hate the soldiers and officers who joined with bloody battles on enemy territory, was boundless. According to the Russian historian and president of the Association of Historians of the Second World War OA Rzheshevsky, failed to prevent violence, but it still was kept, but with the passage of time and minimized.

April 20, 1945 was issued a directive of the Supreme Command commander and members of the military council of the 1st Byelorussian and the 1st Ukrainian fronts number 11072 to change the attitude towards the German prisoners of war and civilians:

1. The need to change the attitude of the Germans as a prisoner of war and to civilians. Handle With Germans better. The brutal relationship with the Germans is their fear and makes them hard to resist, not surrender in captivity. Civilians, fearing revenge, organized in gangs. This situation is not to our advantage. A more humane attitude to the Germans, we facilitate the conduct of hostilities in their territory and, of course, reduce the tenacity of the Germans on the defensive.

2. In the areas of Germany to the west of the mouth of the river Oder, Furstenberg, then Neisse river (to the west) to create the German administration, and in the cities put the mayors - the Germans. Ordinary members of the National Socialist Party, if they are loyal to the Red Army, do not touch, and only detain the leaders if they do not have time to escape.

3. Improving relations with the Germans should not lead to a decrease in alertness and familiarity with the Germans.

- GHQ - Joseph Stalin

[mistyronin 1181]

astral4eg are you telling us that a German (is not English) book from 1975 and an article of the Russian Wikipedia edited by you are your sources against the Soviet Archives that were opened to the public after the fall of the Soviet Union (1992)? Why did you even edited it, trying to hide part of it :j:

Non edited Google translated Russia Wikipedia (in bold the parts you "accidentally" omitted)

Estimates of the number of women raped range from tens of thousands to two million [43] [67] [68] [69] [70] . German historian Miriam Gebhardt (Miriam Gebhardt) provides estimates that US soldiers raped nearly 190 thousand women at the end of the Second World War [71] . D. Herzog agrees with the view that in the eastern zone of occupation were "of one to two million rapes" soldiers of the Soviet army [72] .

Karl of Bam, a history professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said [73] :

"[...] Of course, not all behaved but a minority nemalochislennoe do it."

Antony Beevor, has 1.4 million women raped in Pomerania, East Prussia and Silesia, considering it as "the greatest mass rape in history" [74] .

Irish journalist Cornelius Ryan (Cornelius Ryan), in his book «The Last Battle» claimed that the estimated doctors, with whom he said have been raped in Berlin from 20 000 to 100 000 women. [75]

The American magazine «October» in 1995 [76] in the article by Professor Atina Grossmann "A Question of Silence: The Rape of German Women by Occupation Soldiers" [77] reported the details of how these numbers were derived. According to her, despite the collapse of the Nazi state, the health care system continued to function. [78] In Berlin, a doctor with the consent of the Protestant churches did to clients - victims of rape, abortions are free. All that was required of women - is to provide written evidence of its signature (affidavit). Such evidence has been obtained to Berlin from 20 000 to 100 000 (the researchers admit that some of them - false). The article says Grossmann uniformity of all these "evidence" - the rapists they mostly described as "Asian or Mongolian type." Explaining the surge in the number of abortions, which many authors, Grossmann argues that all «nonmedical or noneugenic» (not justified by the medical or " eugenic "reasons) abortions for Germans in the Third Reich before 1945, were banned. Not to sell contraceptives, even - they were distributed only among ostarbeiters . It is also significant that in their "evidence" the woman pointed out as the main motive for abortion is not moral, and social and economic aspects (for example, that it can not afford to have another child).

The film and the book HELCOM Zander and Barbara Yor «BeFreier und Befreite» authors proceed from the fact that the number of women in Berlin who have been raped (some - several times) greater than 100,000, but details vary widely. [79] Number 1 9 million throughout the occupied territory were received and feminists Yor Zander «on the basis of Hochrechnungen (projections or estimations)» - that is, extrapolation and estimation.

Edited May 10, 2015 by MistyRonin

[John Kozak 14]

astral4eg are you telling us that a German (is not English) book from 1975 and an article of the Russian Wikipedia edited by you are your sources against the Soviet Archives that were opened to the public after the fall of the Soviet Union (1992)? Why did you even edited it, trying to hide part of it :j:

Non edited Google translated Russia Wikipedia (in bold the parts you "accidentally" omitted)

He's editing out anti-russsian propaganda, those pesky imperialists edited the page right before he pressed Ctrl+C.

Nice catch.

[mistyronin 1181]

On a side note, from the same Wikipedia entry that you mentioned, I think there's a really interesting part.

According to Anthony Beevor, the original cause of the violence of Soviet soldiers on the German women (in East Prussia) was revenge for the crimes committed in the Soviet Union. "But then, when the original fuse rage in several Soviet soldiers died away, the main cause of degradation of women and sadistic relationship to it became something else. Three months later, during the Battle of Berlin, Germans were not so much for the Red object of hatred as the object of extraction . The soldiers continued to humiliate women, but this humiliation was rather a consequence of inhumane treatment of the Soviet commanders to their subordinates. This Beevor adds suppression and repression of sexual sphere by the Soviet state, which deprived Soviet soldiers needed sex education.

IMHO it's important to also note that most of the Red Army soldiers were uneducated conscripts, that were treated like animals or worst by generals that cared more about getting points in their career in their race to Berlin than for their subordinate lives. I mean they were not beast by nature, but they became like that due to the circumstances and their authorities (as I said there are some decrees from Stalin himself that encouraged them to behave like that).

A good book on the matter precisely is the Berlin: The Downfall 1945 of Antony Beevor (ISBN 978-0-14-103239-9), tho I warn you that is not for the faint of heart, the couple of times I read it, it took me a long time because after few pages I had to take breaks to digest everything. That author worked deep in the WW2 Soviet Archives and has a lot of documents translated in that book (he also gives the ID in the bibliography in case you want to check the original ones by yourself).

On the book (from Wikipedia too):

The book encountered criticism, especially in Russia,[3] centering on the book's discussion of atrocities, which were committed by the Red Army against German civilians. In particular, the book describes widespread rape of German women and female Soviet forced labourers, both before and after the end of the war. The Russian ambassador to the UK denounced the book as "lies" and "slander against the people who saved the world from Nazism".[4]

Oleg Rzheshevsky, a professor and the president of the Russian Association of World War II Historians, has stated that Beevor is merely resurrecting the discredited and racist views of Neo-Nazi historians, who depicted Soviet troops as subhuman "Asiatic hordes".[5] He argues that Beevor's use of phrases such as "Berliners remember" and "the experiences of the raped German women" were better suited "for pulp fiction, than scientific research". Rzheshevsky also stated that the Germans could have expected an "avalanche of revenge" after what they did in the Soviet Union, but "that did not happen".[6]

Beevor responded by stating that he used excerpts from the report of General Tsigankov, the chief of the political department of the 1st Ukrainian Front, to cite the incident. He wrote: "the bulk of the evidence on the subject came from Soviet sources, especially the NKVD reports in GARF (State Archive of the Russian Federation), and a wide range of reliable personal accounts".[7] Beevor stated that he hopes that Russian historians will "take a more objective approach to material in their own archives which are at odds to the heroic myth of the Red Army as 'liberators' in 1945".[8]

UK historian Richard Overy, from the University of Exeter, has criticized Russian reaction to the book and defended Beevor. Overy accused the Russians of refusing to acknowledge Soviet war crimes, "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history".[6]

Edited May 10, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

I think it´s really funny that he tries to argue with people who have a very good historical knowledge (history was my main subject) by cherry picking only the parts he likes. He also refuses to accept that the Soviet State archives in Moscow have all those documents needed to prove the soviet crimes. Just like the Germans, the Soviets documented and archived pretty much everything. It´s blatant and obvious trolling by him, unless he is paid to do that crap wich I believe to be more likely with every bullshit post he makes.

[astral4eg 10]

astral4eg are you telling us that a German (is not English) book from 1975 and an article of the Russian Wikipedia edited by you are your sources against the Soviet Archives that were opened to the public after the fall of the Soviet Union (1992)? Why did you even edited it, trying to hide part of it :j:

Does it change anything? I try to put the essence in the minimum amount of characters for easy reading. And about 1.5-2 million, you can read in English version Wiki .

It is also, I too did not become lay out..

Front Commander was ordered to bring this directive "to every officer and soldier of existing forces and institutions of the front" and "produce in parts of knowledge testing instructions comrade. Stalin all categories of military personnel. "[83]

The commander of the 4th Panzer Army of the 1st Ukrainian Front Lelyushenko recalled [84]:

The commanders of formations, units and political authorities in connection with the military council ordered the army to strengthen military discipline and vigilance with regard to the local population, recalled the international mission of soldiers of the Red Army. On these issues among soldiers conducted outreach to all commanders, political workers, Party and Komsomol organizations. Short halts during refueling fuel tank, replenish ammunition - in short, every minute was used for promotional and educational work.

At the same time explanatory and educational work was accompanied by political bodies rigid punitive measures by the military commandant's office and the military prosecution. According to the Military Prosecutor's Office, in the first months of 1945 for atrocities committed against the local people were convicted by military tribunals over 4 thousand officers and a large number of rank and file. A few show trials ended in imposition of the death penalty

if I have correctly understood, this book was first translated into English 1975 and then into Russian 1999

=========================

As expected, I received a ban, and even in the next topic of Ukraine ..

Therefore, I will write here

I think it´s really funny that he tries to argue with people who have a very good historical knowledge (history was my main subject) by cherry picking only the parts he likes. He also refuses to accept that the Soviet State archives in Moscow have all those documents needed to prove the soviet crimes. Just like the Germans, the Soviets documented and archived pretty much everything.

Where I am denied the Soviet crimes? There was no such. Everywhere here provides data with the maximum number 2kk raped, 20kk represirovanyh etc. I cited similar data from the other side and from the same archives and Wikipedias..

It´s blatant and obvious trolling by him, unless he is paid to do that crap wich I believe to be more likely with every bullshit post he makes.

Trolling is this thread where over 83 pages of trolls and sling mud Russia. How many positive news about Russia in this thread? Yes, somewhere around 0, only trolling and dirt. And those who are trying to get something to say against receives ban. And the others just do not write here because they are afraid of being banned.

Have fun.

ps. No, I don't get money for it.

Edited May 14, 2015 by astral4eg

[oxmox 73]

China is using Russia as a cheap gas pump.

It is not only about Gas and economics, it is about a political and military cooperation. And here lies the danger when geopolitical interest are going into a confrontation.

For the Ukraine for example Russia was (and is) a very important partner for gas deliveries, and they did cheated them i.e. Timoshenko & Co..There are also hints about stolen gas and avoiding tax.

The Ukraine and as far I remember one or more baltic country exploited cheap gas delivieries. Why do you think some people got so rich in such short time in the energy sector.....

What did they do ? They obtained Gas from Russia for a special friendship price but sold enormous amounts of it for higher prices on the world market.

Edited May 10, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Does it change anything? I try to put the essence in the minimum amount of characters for easy reading. And about 1.5-2 million, you can read in English version Wiki .

IMO yes, it changes quite much the point of the entry itself.

As I said before there were a few officers that acted responsibly, I can't recall the details but I have read myself documents of few officers that disciplined their men for their brutality (for instance a lieutenant that shot on spot one of his soldiers for committing a rape).

To me what's more important it's not the specific cases but the crazy orders given by the Soviet High Command (Stavka), even some signed by Stalin himself.

If that had happened nowadays, all the Stavka officers would have been condemned for crimes against humanity, and what's probably worst, against their own subordinates. In the WW2 Red Army it was probably the only one were it was more probable to be tortured and killed by your own mates than because of the enemy fire.

Even nowadays the дедовщиÌна is a big problem in the Russian Army.

Edited May 10, 2015 by MistyRonin

[John Kozak 14]

I think it´s really funny that he tries to argue with people who have a very good historical knowledge (history was my main subject) by cherry picking only the parts he likes. He also refuses to accept that the Soviet State archives in Moscow have all those documents needed to prove the soviet crimes. Just like the Germans, the Soviets documented and archived pretty much everything. It´s blatant and obvious trolling by him, unless he is paid to do that crap wich I believe to be more likely with every bullshit post he makes.

A bit of conspiracy theory here, but there has been a

quite convenient fire. Quite sure the Russian history have become much more patriotic after it.

P.S.And by the way, you got it right - there are a lot of paid "internet patriots" who get money for harassing any form of opposition and repost pro-government political notes. Not pointing fingers... Yet.

Edited May 11, 2015 by DarkWanderer