Weapon Sway Inaccurate

[spanishsurfer 58]

That's not true.

Obviously its not the same as real combat but I'm sure all players get increased adrenaline, heart rate etc when in an ARMA fire fight.

That will affect mouse control similarly to holding a weapon.

I do think the sway is excessive and should be toned down a bit.

My heart rate and adrenaline do not go up in virtual fire fights...My heart rate might increase a bit when I get up to go take a piss after playing Arma for a few hours, but that's it. :)

[Mirek 166]

That's not true.

Obviously its not the same as real combat but I'm sure all players get increased adrenaline, heart rate etc when in an ARMA fire fight.

That will affect mouse control similarly to holding a weapon.

I do think the sway is excessive and should be toned down a bit.

What? My hart rate or breathing does not affect my mousehold my mouse and my forearm and hand holding the mouse are all resting confortabyl on my desk.

To the weapon sway thing. Iam not expert, i go to shooting range twice a year, we have only 7,62x39 rifle (and some 22LR rifles wich probably noone ever used) on range so no experience with 5.56x45, shooting only from standing unsupported possition so no experience with prone or crouched and we have only 50m shooting range in my town so no experience with longer distances, but comparing my Reallife experience with arma 3 i would say the arma weapon sway is pretty acurate.

[martin_lee 33]

but I'm sure all players get increased adrenaline, heart rate etc when in an ARMA fire fight.

I think that whilst you may get increased adrenaline, that is really, really tiny. Even in the most intense airsoft firefight I've faced (I am the last man on my team, outnumbered 6 to 1 trapped in a small building, down to my last pistol mag. I won), the 'adrenaline' you feel cannot measure up to one trigger by fight-or-flight response, it's not even close. The thing is, it's rather hard to triiger an 'adrenaline rush'. That comes with your body's flight-or-fight response, when your brain thinks your life is in danger. The key is in that last sentance, and that is not something you can consciously trigger, or by any simulated situation (since your brain knows you're safe).

Also, I think adrenaline isn't the culprit at all, actually. Think about it, you get adrenaline rush when you are in fight-or-flight situation, it wouldn't be good if that is affecting your motor skill in a bad way.

I've experience actual adrenaline rushes before due to my rather bad phobia. But after the dust settled, and before the effect wears off, I am pretty much fine except with a high heart rate, no shaky hand or weak knees or anything. AFTER the adrenaline wears off, though, is another world altogether. You crash, badly. You hand shakes, your knees weak, and probably nightmares for the following few days.

If anything, I think it is the stress from the event that is affecting your aim, rather than adrenaline that is causing it.

(For those who might be interested: During the adrenaline rush, I didn't experience any bullet-time effect you see in movies, time didn't slow down. But you do became much more alert, perceive things quicker and make decision much, much faster. Events that may normally take you few second to understand and react, you can do it in a heartbeat.)

[evil koala 6]

I don't think the weapon sway is the problem. The 3D optics/sights are and are one of my biggest complaints with Arma 3. They handle as if I'm shooting an AR pistol; holding a rifle with no shoulder stock out in front of me. The sway is fine. But the reticle should be centered as your view sways. Maybe have a combination of the two methods when moving quickly, but when stationary or moving slowly, the reticle should always be centered.

Also related, track IR should be disabled when looking through magnified 3d optics.

These changes I think would vastly improve the feel of the most popular optics used in game with seemingly little effort. I can't help but wonder how they've stayed this way for so long.

[brightcandle 114]

When firing from prone I find most of the movement of my sights is up and down with my breath. There is almost no horizontal sway in a stable firing position but instead firing is a large part about timing with my pause in breathing and lining that up. So while I partially agree the sway seems somewhat overdone there are mods to make it less apparent and somewhat more realistic and a little less gamey. That is the beauty of A3, if you want something different you just change it, the only stuff we care about from BI is the actual features not the values themselves. So long as we can disable game features or set realistic values it doesn't matter and in this case there are mods to fix it.

[evil koala 6]

When firing from prone I find most of the movement of my sights is up and down with my breath. There is almost no horizontal sway in a stable firing position but instead firing is a large part about timing with my pause in breathing and lining that up. So while I partially agree the sway seems somewhat overdone there are mods to make it less apparent and somewhat more realistic and a little less gamey. That is the beauty of A3, if you want something different you just change it, the only stuff we care about from BI is the actual features not the values themselves. So long as we can disable game features or set realistic values it doesn't matter and in this case there are mods to fix it.

Modding support in Arma 3 is certainly awesome, but it doesn't address all shortcomings. A lot of people play on public servers which tend to run vanilla Arma 3 for compatibility. For example, all of the King of the Hill servers run vanilla Arma 3 and do not allow mods.

[brightcandle 114]

Modding support in Arma 3 is certainly awesome, but it doesn't address all shortcomings. A lot of people play on public servers which tend to run vanilla Arma 3 for compatibility. For example, all of the King of the Hill servers run vanilla Arma 3 and do not allow mods.

I have never once had a productive conversation with BI to get them to change anything to be more realistic. I have had a lot of conversations where they did their thing regardless of what happened in real life (suppressors for example), so they are more interested in building a game than a simulation. I think the problem arma has is its close enough that this little niggles irritate people, they seem unnecessarily arbitrary compared to the other things being more authentic. But the sim always falls apart in places where a simulation really wouldn't, like having 30 rounds after a partial reload instead of 30+1, the sway, the way the scopes behave generally, there is wind in game but no adjustment for windage, there is elevation drop in the game but the elevation adjustment is based on metres, etc etc etc. You can go on and on about the missing features and the choices BI made that are often not very true to life but its not their goal. Its why IMO the game is really best played in a community with decent mods, because without it the game has all these pointless niggles.

[evil koala 6]

I have never once had a productive conversation with BI to get them to change anything to be more realistic. I have had a lot of conversations where they did their thing regardless of what happened in real life (suppressors for example), so they are more interested in building a game than a simulation. I think the problem arma has is its close enough that this little niggles irritate people, they seem unnecessarily arbitrary compared to the other things being more authentic. But the sim always falls apart in places where a simulation really wouldn't, like having 30 rounds after a partial reload instead of 30+1, the sway, the way the scopes behave generally, there is wind in game but no adjustment for windage, there is elevation drop in the game but the elevation adjustment is based on metres, etc etc etc. You can go on and on about the missing features and the choices BI made that are often not very true to life but its not their goal. Its why IMO the game is really best played in a community with decent mods, because without it the game has all these pointless niggles.

I'm sure it just has to do with priorities. BI have made some huge strides recently relative to their slow growth during the Operation Flashpoint and early ArmA 1 periods. They always seem to be focused on bigger picture improvements while sometimes neglecting the smaller issues. Now with their sudden influx of new players and income with DayZ and the rising popularity of the ArmA series, they seem to be addressing some of these lasting smaller, yet still fundamental issues. So here's hoping partial reloads, windage and proper scopes are on the short list of changes.

[enex 11]

I have never once had a productive conversation with BI to get them to change anything to be more realistic. I have had a lot of conversations where they did their thing regardless of what happened in real life (suppressors for example), so they are more interested in building a game than a simulation. I think the problem arma has is its close enough that this little niggles irritate people, they seem unnecessarily arbitrary compared to the other things being more authentic. But the sim always falls apart in places where a simulation really wouldn't, like having 30 rounds after a partial reload instead of 30+1, the sway, the way the scopes behave generally, there is wind in game but no adjustment for windage, there is elevation drop in the game but the elevation adjustment is based on metres, etc etc etc. You can go on and on about the missing features and the choices BI made that are often not very true to life but its not their goal. Its why IMO the game is really best played in a community with decent mods, because without it the game has all these pointless niggles.

In truth, simulating wind-affected ballistics is not the most complicated task; the real struggle comes with the way gameplay is affected by it. Little details like counting how much a bullet is affected at what speed become irrelevant very quickly. The reason is probably surprising to most looking at the company from the outside. How would we tell the player how strong the wind is? By some gadget, one might say, yes, but what if you don't have the gadget? How would you tell the player the strength of wind? Wind is so natural to people - you can feel it - but this feeling is something we can't put into the game. We also considered showing the strength of wind by particles raising up at the target you are aiming at. We had several ideas but we hit a big wall during the process.

That wall is performance. Especially in MP it would be hard to measure, show and compute all the necessary 'helpers'. Our timeframe is limited and the gameplay value is very uncertain because it would make long range shooting much harder than it is. And considering Arma already has a pretty steep learning curve, it could drive away some people that would like to enjoy the game as it is. Some people might say it could be a game option, but should we clutter the game options even more? These questions are very real and very important to us. There are too many questions that don't have very clear answers. That is why we decided not to add this feature to the Marksmen DLC. We are still positive that these can be answered, and with a not-significant amount of time, resolved.

31 rounds chamber:

This was another topic that we brought up in the pre-production of Marksmen DLC. However, there is one simple fact that we can't be oblivious to: weapons in Arma are merely 'shapes'. That means they contain no information about the magazine or ammunition in them. The implementation of such feature would require vast amount of time and effort and - since we already planned big features that you can enjoy (deployment, recoil overhaul, resting, audio overhaul and some basic changes to suppression) - we put the effort and gain to scales and decided to postpone this feature. Much like windage, it is not impossible to do, but again, the balance of effort to value was very disproportional - so we made a decision.

Nevertheless, we hope you'll enjoy the other features that we prepared for you to enjoy. Deployment is shaping up really well and resting is already in the Dev-Branch.

Source: http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-marksmen-weapons

[Gutsnav 13]

I have an idea [sorry for off topic, but it relates to the post above]. You know that wind indicator in the Advanced Flight Model virtual instrument thingy? What if that were to be added to the HUD, and possibly bound to activate at the press of a key(s) ["K", "B", and "RMB"]? It would be a clean white outline, and depending on the wind's speed the indicator would 'fill up' with solid white. Then for those people who don't like to miss, there could be an exact windage reading when the player is in possession of a laser rangefinder and maybe even a laser designator. Some real laser rangefinders have this feature / ability, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were common in the future. Windage could be adjusted with "Home" and "End" keys. There you go. It would be pretty easy to use, but difficult to master :D

Edited March 19, 2015 by Gutsnav

[enex 11]

I was thinking alongside fatigue "blur matte" on the sides.Example would be holding down appropriate key, and blur would swing

in the direction of wind blowing.It would stay in same bounds as fatigue blur but would have different color.

Criticism could be in a shape of hard to distinguish, but then again when you do measuring without a tool,

your result is approximation and the guess based on feel.

Fatigue meter could overlap wind matte despite different colors and make it hard to judge.I would say that I find -

when I'm exhausted wind direction bit harder then rested.

Edited March 19, 2015 by enex

[SouthernSmoke 10]

The sway is outrageous to the point of being absurd, so much so that I find it completely unplayable. I wont even let steam update so I am still on 1.32 simply because I refuse to allow updates to ruin the acceptable (modded) sway and recoil Im using. I bet firing from vehicles is fun.

The common excuse for the ridiculous sway seems to be "shooter is under stress and tired and a game cant simulate the full experience". Nonsense. If the sway appeared only when under fire or when (legitimately) fatigued that would be a different story. But, as it is now, the weapon sways uncontrollably even when standing still with no fatigue at all. Jogging for 10 seconds and then stopping and trying to fire makes it seem as though your a drunk 10 year old girl trying to shoot with a broken arm while having a seizure.

There are limitations in simulating firing in a game that might make it too easy but it goes both ways- when looking out of vehicle windows, a players vision is very limited when in reality they could simply lean over and fully see out that window.

I don't believe BI should make shooting more difficult by creating unrealistic and unenjoyable mechanics just because they are unable to simulate something accurately. Don't make it even more unrealistic by forcing artificial mechanics on players.

It is completely unbelievable. Agree with OP 100%. That being said, I absolutely love Arma. The sway is horrible though.

[St. Jimmy 272]

The sway is outrageous to the point of being absurd, so much so that I find it completely unplayable. I wont even let steam update so I am still on 1.32 simply because I refuse to allow updates to ruin the acceptable (modded) sway and recoil Im using. I bet firing from vehicles is fun.

The common excuse for the ridiculous sway seems to be "shooter is under stress and tired and a game cant simulate the full experience". Nonsense. If the sway appeared only when under fire or when (legitimately) fatigued that would be a different story. But, as it is now, the weapon sways uncontrollably even when standing still with no fatigue at all. Jogging for 10 seconds and then stopping and trying to fire makes it seem as though your a drunk 10 year old girl trying to shoot with a broken arm while having a seizure.

There are limitations in simulating firing in a game that might make it too easy but it goes both ways- when looking out of vehicle windows, a players vision is very limited when in reality they could simply lean over and fully see out that window.

I don't believe BI should make shooting more difficult by creating unrealistic and unenjoyable mechanics just because they are unable to simulate something accurately. Don't make it even more unrealistic by forcing artificial mechanics on players.

It is completely unbelievable. Agree with OP 100%. That being said, I absolutely love Arma. The sway is horrible though.

Then you should be very happy about the next patch because there the sway has been changed so it's better controllable. Test it already in the dev-branch if you don't believe.

[Defunkt 431]

The sway is outrageous to the point of being absurd, so much so that I find it completely unplayable.

Others seem to have no problem playing with it. The following video (made when the sway was much higher than it is now) shows clearly that the system is very manageable and imitates reality very well;

[maffa 29]

I for one am against this 8 shaped sway. It's too gamey. If you dont touch the mouse it goes drawing pattern around, like a drunken fly... it simply doesnt have sense. A perfectly rested soldier has to be able to shoot at a target a hundred meters away without having to fight with his "patterning stress". If it has gone on firing and receiving fire or he run or he's out there for too long, then you might introduce some stress modification, even though i am very wary in forcing physical effects for psychological situations on players.

[roshnak 41]

I for one am against this 8 shaped sway. It's too gamey. If you dont touch the mouse it goes drawing pattern around, like a drunken fly... it simply doesnt have sense. A perfectly rested soldier has to be able to shoot at a target a hundred meters away without having to fight with his "patterning stress". If it has gone on firing and receiving fire or he run or he's out there for too long, then you might introduce some stress modification, even though i am very wary in forcing physical effects for psychological situations on players.

The sway is not supposed to simulate stress or anything like that. It's designed to make shooting in Arma appropriately difficult and skill-based.

The problem with equating the skillset involved in shooting and the skillset involved in using a mouse is that they are completely different. For example:

If you dont touch the mouse it goes drawing pattern around, like a drunken fly... it simply doesnt have sense.

This argument doesn't make sense. If weapon sway was tied to how much you were inadvertantly moving the mouse, there would never be any weapon sway. (Almost) Anyone can move a mouse cursor over a stationary point and hold it there without letting it move at all. The number of human beings who could accomplish the same thing with a gun is zero.

[maffa 29]

Weapon sway on A3 is worse than A2. Weapon sway is a placeholder for other things missing in the game that would make shooting a little more challenging. For example, going on accuracy mode (right mouse btn) is too fast. It shouldnt be that fast, IMHO, expecially as fights draws on. We stll lack windage. But this said, once i rested my weapon between shoulder and cheek, there's no way i miss a stationary target a hundred meters away, unless i miss my aimpoint on the actual target. There are tons of skill based activities in arma that are presented as is, like repairing, curing and vehicle piloting.

In any case i see there are people just happy as it, so i aknoloedge this fact, as much as there are other people that cannot stand it. I wish there was a way to turn it off.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Are you using hold breath button? Helps a lot and it removes up and down sway from the pattern so it's much more easy to control. Also ouy of breath takes like 1s and you can hold breath for 6s again rinse and repeat.

[roshnak 41]

Weapon sway on A3 is worse than A2. Weapon sway is a placeholder for other things missing in the game that would make shooting a little more challenging. For example, going on accuracy mode (right mouse btn) is too fast. It shouldnt be that fast, IMHO, expecially as fights draws on. We stll lack windage.

Are you suggesting that it should take longer for the sights to come up? That wouldn't make the game more challenging or require skill, it would just add a delay before you can shoot. As for wind affecting bullets, I believe the devs have said that they don't want to include this feature as they are not happy with their ability to convey wind direction and strength to the player. Even if windage was included, though, it would only be a factor in long distance shooting or in certain weather conditions.

But this said, once i rested my weapon between shoulder and cheek, there's no way i miss a stationary target a hundred meters away, unless i miss my aimpoint on the actual target.

And how is this not true in Arma 3?

There are tons of skill based activities in arma that are presented as is, like repairing, curing and vehicle piloting.

Arma isn't a first person medical game, a first person mechanic game, or a first person driving game, it's a first person shooter. And even so, flying helicopters is plenty skill based in Arma, with or without the AFM.

By the way, there are mods that significantly tone down weapon sway. Being able to disable weapon sway in the stock game is obviously not an option.

[Wiki 1558]

Indeed, weapon sway sucks so far.

Just played a little and my avatar was totally rested. I ran 5 meters (not sprinted, just ran... and only 5 meters) and when I want look in my optics, it was all f***** up, I had to wait about 6 or 7 seconds before I could have a correct accuracy...

WTF?!!? Even IRL it takes less than 2 sec to be ready to aim and fire in this situation.

Sway definitely needs improvement!

[roshnak 41]

Indeed, weapon sway sucks so far.

Just played a little and my avatar was totally rested. I ran 5 meters (not sprinted, just ran... and only 5 meters) and when I want look in my optics, it was all f***** up, I had to wait about 6 or 7 seconds before I could have a correct accuracy...

WTF?!!? Even IRL it takes less than 2 sec to be ready to aim and fire in this situation.

Sway definitely needs improvement!

This is not true or your game is bugged.

[Wiki 1558]

The optic was absolutely not centered, rather on the corner of my screen, and it was not steady at all.

6 or 7 sec before it came steady on the center of the screen...

[Defunkt 431]

The optic was absolutely not centered, rather on the corner of my screen, and it was not steady at all.

6 or 7 sec before it came steady on the center of the screen...

Are you running without mods (and on which branch)? Maybe you could post some steps to reproduce this in the editor? Nothing like what you describe happens for me.

[Wiki 1558]

Stable, no mod running.

Dunno, maybe my guy wasnt totally rested.

[roshnak 41]

The optic was absolutely not centered, rather on the corner of my screen, and it was not steady at all.

6 or 7 sec before it came steady on the center of the screen...

That doesn't sound right. Here's an old video I made to show off the effects of hold breath, but it's also showing weapon sway under extreme fatigue (more than 60%). The sway may look silly, but the optic is never anywhere near the corners of the screen.