Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[machineabuse 11]

This is how inertia is done in DayZ. The gun only drags behind but it settles down where you stopped your mouse and doesn't make weird left and right movements like in Arma 3. That's more like it should be in my opinion. Pretty much the same as in my right part of the last video.

I don't have DayZ but I must say that looks a lot more "authentic" than the method used in A3.

[artie 0]

I don't know if there are more people like me, that don't like weapon inertia. Maybe they are afraid to post, because everybody seems to like it. I don't play any Multiplayer Scenarios. I only play Singleplayer games. So where is the button in the game options to disable weapon inertia (and fatigue) for all singleplayer scenarios ? I like the possibilities of the game. It gives me hours of hours of fun. But the AI is sometimes so strong, it can see in the dark and through trees and bushes. That frustrates sometimes. And when i only want to play to relax, but the AI has all the advantages on their side, the opposite happens. Realism is OK. But sometimes i only want to play in good old "arcade game style". When realism becomes the one and only goal then in future i have to stop playing for some months, because in game i got a shoot in the arm or wounded my leg in virtual fighting and i virtually have to rest and cure my wounds.

[CaptainObvious 95]

I don't have DayZ but I must say that looks a lot more "authentic" than the method used in A3.

I'm not a huge fan of the DayZ method, it feels a bit too 'precise', however the RIGHT part in the video St.Jimmy posted is pretty much spot on in my opinion.

[Strick 1]

Is there any progress with this feature being disabled or adjusted? All I'm reading is a bunch of blar blar blar...

[roshnak 41]

I'm not a huge fan of the DayZ method, it feels a bit too 'precise', however the RIGHT part in the video St.Jimmy posted is pretty much spot on in my opinion.

Yeah, I think it might be a bit much to have both sight misalignment and increased weapon sway caused by inertia, especially since it seems to be causing inconsistent behavior. I'd prefer if, instead of the increased sway, inertia just influenced the sight realignment time.

Is there any progress with this feature being disabled or adjusted? All I'm reading is a bunch of blar blar blar...

What would you like to be reading?

[Strick 1]

More about the weapon sway formula and how we as players can set the values of our weapon systems in the game play options. Please!

If not then I'd like to read about how people are using the new feature in virtual combat.

My challenge so far is changing the way how I fight in game with the new mechanics. It used to be shoot and move tactics but now I'm finding it frustrating to aim while moving in direction of targets. My left and right flank are even more vulnerable do to weapon rotation sway.

I personally would like to have more positive control of my weapon system in relation to it being positioned with my body such as various stances benefiting or negating the inertia and sway. Example is combat stance action beneifit is less inertia and sway but slower speed. Crouched position weapon inertia great and sway great due to increase in speed to move around objects.

If you want to see my perspective try walking around the house with a broom and only hang onto the end with one hand. Then aim it at dust bunnies and see how many you get before they drop you like dirt.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Strick

[-Coulum- 35]

I don't have DayZ but I must say that looks a lot more "authentic" than the method used in A3.

Why do you think that? Personally, they seem equally "inauthentic". In reality your sights shouldn't misalign like in A3. But In reality your weapon doesn't lag like that Dayz vid either.

However too me the misalignment method seems alot "slicker". It looks and feels pretty smooth and fluent. Dayz method comes across as more clunky and frustrating. To me the A3 method looks superior (though no doubt I would love to see a bit of DayZ method worked in there as well - I want it all of course).

Overall, I don't think there really is a truly "authentic" method to simulating the effect heavy cumbersome weapons have on weapon handling. Simple as that.

Yeah, I think it might be a bit much to have both sight misalignment and increased weapon sway caused by inertia, especially since it seems to be causing inconsistent behavior. I'd prefer if, instead of the increased sway, inertia just influenced the sight realignment time.

To me, the sway is actually the more important part. That is what actually throws your aim off. The alignment in itself is actually really not that big of a deal - your aim will be a couple of feet off and it will take less than a second for it to be spot on again. Even with a machinegun or antimaterial rifle. Put on a holographic sight and the effect is even less. Its the sway that makes it difficult to quickly and accurately engage targets with heavy weapons. Its the important part. Just my opinion though.

I do agree that the sway seems somewhat inconsistent however. I can't pinpoint why I get that feeling. Might be because the sway doesn't seem to kick in until after you stop your rotation. Or maybe its because the sway doesn't seem to be effected by the direction and force you swing your weapon. Or maybe my imagination.

If not then I'd like to read about how people are using the new feature in virtual combat.

My challenge so far is changing the way how I fight in game with the new mechanics. It used to be shoot and move tactics but now I'm finding it frustrating to aim while moving in direction of targets. My left and right flank are even more vulnerable do to weapon rotation sway.

Personally I find that I do fine if I just really take my time. Move from cover to cover. Only engage from cover. If you are playing with others, inertia makes covering ones sector much more important. Everyone cover an angle and there shouldn't be any need to rotate quick to engage targets on the flank.

In short though, don't run and gun, and play with patience. Has been working for me in singleplayer and multiplayer. And if bullets are snapping by your head, (especially against ai) for the love of god, don't try to find the enemy, fight the sway and line up a shot. Reposition to a location that will let you take your time lining up your shots. Finding those spots are what makes things interesting and where tactics and planning comes into play.

Edited October 31, 2014 by -Coulum-

[roshnak 41]

To address the first point, I doubt we'll see any ability to adjust the values through the gameplay options. I believe there is a mod that removes or lessens the weapon sway, at least, though.

As for how I'm using the new mechanics: it has definitely changed the way I play, although I wouldn't say that it has done so substantially.

When you say you're using move and shoot tactics, do you mean that you used to shoot at targets while moving? That is something that I never really did outside of room clearing type situations where I'm not likely to miss the target anyway. I've found, however, that the best way to engage targets at longer range while moving is to wait for the crosshair to naturally pass over the target. This is much easier to do if you are holding your breath.

On a related note, while searching for some reference on shooting while moving (I was trying to confirm something, but, to be honest, I got lazy and gave up when it didn't show up within the first 3 search results), I found this quote from this article:

Reference shooting on the move, it’s a skill all shooters aspire to learn and spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I’ve never had to use it in combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped, planted and made my shots. When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to shoot. I didn’t find an in-between. If I slowed down enough to make a solid hit when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to.

As for shooting and closing on a target, it only makes the bad guys accuracy better and walking into a muzzle may help you to test your new vest sooner than you wanted to.

When you refer to "weapon rotation sway," I'm assuming that you're talking about the inertia effects? If that's the case, then I would ask if you've ever played the game Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield, because the weapon inertia in Arma 3 seems to operate on a similar concept. In Raven Shield, if you turned too quickly, the crosshair would bloom and your weapon would become less accurate. This sort of simulated the loss of control and stability that would come with a rapid body movements and emphasized the smooth, controlled actions that are so often touted as a tenet of "operator" types (slow is smooth..., etc.).

I would like to see some improvements on this model in Arma (have the inertia based more on acceleration than overall speed, for example), and some good suggestions have been offered in this thread, but the basic principle remains: Don't move your mouse too quickly or your aim is gonna be thrown a bit.

By the way, if you tape a laser pointer to the end of that broom in your example, it might change your perspective a bit.

Edit:

I do agree that the sway seems somewhat inconsistent however. I can't pinpoint why I get that feeling. Might be because the sway doesn't seem to kick in until after you stop your rotation. Or maybe its because the sway doesn't seem to be effected by the direction and force you swing your weapon. Or maybe my imagination.

I don't think it's your imagination -- it's definitely inconsistent. There is a bit of a delay before the sway kicks in after you stop rotating, which feels pretty off. I think removing the delay or ramping up the sway during the turn would do a lot to make it feel more natural, along with making it so that the sway always begins at the same point during the "sway cycle." I do think it might be cool if the sway was influenced by the direction and force (probably actually acceleration and deceleration) of your turn. I think there are several ways the system could be tweaked to feel better, to be honest.

Edited October 31, 2014 by roshnak

[machineabuse 11]

Why do think that? Personally, they seem equally "inauthentic". In reality your sights shouldn't misalign like in A3. But In reality your weapon doesn't lag like that Dayz vid either.

It's a lesser of two evils really. Inertia in a firearm is a sensation that is felt and not seen. At very least weapon lagging still allows me to take a turning shot at a reasonable rotation speed. Misalignment on the other hand has me wondering if I should need to take a turning shot if I use the front sight or what if the rear sight is not aligned.

I don't see why I should even need to think about that. Too many people here think that accurate shooting is all about waiting for sights to align, waiting for the hold breath to kick in or some other form of waiting. A lot of competitive shooting is flowing into the shot in a

way that the inertia & sway system sucks pretty hard at.

By way of disclaimer yes this system can be learned and you can get pretty good at it by building certain habits but those habits are for lack of a better word; gamey. Which I would have thought was what such a system was meant to move us away from.

I do agree that the sway seems somewhat inconsistent however. I can't pinpoint why I get that feeling. Might be because the sway doesn't seem to kick in until after you stop your rotation. Or maybe its because the sway doesn't seem to be effected by the direction and force you swing your weapon. Or maybe my imagination.

Both from what I can observe.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Machineabuse
Somehow my formatting was all over the place.

[alsanjuro 20]

I have said it many times that both sway and inertia are over exaggerated and Bohemia is not gonna adjust any time or ever. At the moment it stands i use the sway fix mod which still has sway and inertia but decreased. I have been trolled on so many forums for even mentioning that its over exaggerated by keyboard warriors. I mean when i use a ARCO/RCO sights zoomed in even the slightest move and the sights on screen are nearly going of the screen that would mean that the weapon is moving like 4 inches off. What is the point of this feedback when Bohemia wont respond to any of it not everyone likes the way its done at them moment. Oh boy when you try to use it with track ir i start feeling nauseated and frankly my neck starts getting sore from trying to catch the sights. People that love this sway should go down a shooting range and pick up rifle of some sort and move you weapon from side to side and then come back and tell me if their weapon bounces for a few seconds before it stops and sways in a figure 8. There has been no word from the actual developer on this subject why.

Its funny that military personnel have been trolled on how a weapon behaves. Anytime i see someone post against this sway and inertia you get trolled and these days more and more servers are now arma life, dayz rip offs and king of the hill (aka battlefield 3 with camping). The other thing with this sway and inertia is that the AI some how can run and shoot you in the face from 400m no probs. This needs to be tweeked is it that hard to do.

[enex 11]

Reasoning of Bohemia behind inertia and weapon sway

You guys should read this http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-weapon-sway-fatigue

[alsanjuro 20]

In their oprep they mention things like to be authentic and when i said that the whole sway and inertia is not realistic i get told by people that Bohemia arent trying to replicate realism of weapon handling but to have a more authentic weapon handling those people should check their dictionary to what the word authentic is. Authentic means real not something different and for making gameplay challenging oh they have done that where my weapon tends to bounce all over the screen even after taking few steps. When your muscles are fatigued they dont produce a sway effect but more a shaking effect like they had in arma 2. So please stop with reposting the same oprep since anyone who created this feature for arma 3 has never held a weapon in their life. When i move my weapon to a side i didnt know that your arms and weapon are made of rubber because that is what it feels like at the moment and when i try to adjust my aim on the target it produces more sway and wobbling effect. Its interesting that there has been now response from the Devs on this. I watched some of their twitch streams and its interesting to see that the person who was playing went to some extent to hide how much his weapon was bouncing around even when not moving as fast and would switch to 3rd person to hide it and would revert to 1st when he was rested because its gives me motion sickness as if i was on water. Is it that hard for them adjust it.

[andersson 285]

an attempt to create even more authentic and challenging gameplay

Challenging yes, authentic no.

Look at St. Jimmy's post: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?182228-Weapon-Inertia-amp-Sway-Feedback-(dev-branch)&p=2806257&viewfull=1#post2806257

The barrel should move, but not the stock as that is fixed against the shoulder.

BI is getting there but they should try to make it more authentic. I'm sure more RL shooters like me find this weapon sway strange. Ok if I fold the stock and only hold the weapon in my hands maybe, but that's not the case with the A3 weapons.

Edited October 31, 2014 by andersson

[enex 11]

So please stop with reposting the same oprep since anyone who created this feature for arma 3 has never held a weapon in their life.

Last five pages I checked no one posted link to oprep and within one page there's 10 responses so I don't understand why are you so angry.

I missed it but somewhere was stated that feature can't be replicated as in real life so there has to be made a tradeoff.From what I remember

they were focusing on CQB and size of rifles - making SMGs more effective then sniper rifle for clearing houses for example.The bigger the

rifle the bigger the sway is.Before update sniper/MGs were viable weapons for clearing indoor areas.

[machineabuse 11]

The Oprep may not have been linked but it has been referenced directly and indirectly in the conversation ad nauseum. So far no one has had an issue (even once) with the idea that differentiating the handling expression of small and large weapons. Be assured that people who have even found a thread called "Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)" probably did not do so in a knowledge vacuum.

It is that the method that the idea has been executed in leaves a lot to be desired for some.

It is even more frustrating when one assumes that we are taking issue with the system that we somehow are lacking in knowledge or gaming skill or are unable to... adapt(eeuuuuuurrrrrrghghhhhh).

For the nothing that it's worth, personally; my complaint coming from a person who has put a fair amount of trigger time behind guns for pleasure and sport is that it looks and feels wrong. I can live with it but since this thread exists I'm contributing in the chance it can be done better and I think it can.

[alsanjuro 20]

Challenging yes, authentic no.

Look at St. Jimmy's post: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?182228-Weapon-Inertia-amp-Sway-Feedback-(dev-branch)&p=2806257&viewfull=1#post2806257

The barrel should move, but not the stock as that is fixed against the shoulder.

BI is getting there but they should try to make it more authentic. I'm sure more RL shooters like me find this weapon sway strange. Ok if I fold the stock and only hold the weapon in my hands maybe, but that's not the case with the A3 weapons.

You do have a point there your weapons stock in fixed against your shoulder and why would a weapon bounce around as much as it does it needs fixing, personally it shouldnt have come out of dev branch till it was perfected i mean even the sway due to inertia shouldnt be making a number 8 it should have a tremble/shake effect as in arma 2 as i stated previously. BI is trying to get more customers to get ARMA 3 and i for one have recommended ARMA 3 to a quiet a few of my friends which have military background and they were shocked to find out how much their weapons bounce. Lets say they werent impressed with game which is trying to be a more realistic military shooter. I mean weapon sways a quiet a lot even in the ST.Jimmys video and then you get hurt and and its like ten fold.

I do hope that this gets resolved.

[roshnak 41]

A lot of competitive shooting is flowing into the shot in a

way that the inertia & sway system sucks pretty hard at.

I got a little ahead of myself and hit pretty close to the edge of a target.

By way of disclaimer yes this system can be learned and you can get pretty good at it by building certain habits but those habits are for lack of a better word; gamey.

This sounds like a description of learning how to shoot to me. Yeah, the system is kind of gamey, but this is a video game. Unless you hook a rifle up to your computer, you're not going to replicate the experience and skillset of shooting.

Its interesting that there has been now response from the Devs on this. I watched some of their twitch streams and its interesting to see that the person who was playing went to some extent to hide how much his weapon was bouncing around even when not moving as fast and would switch to 3rd person to hide it and would revert to 1st when he was rested because its gives me motion sickness as if i was on water. Is it that hard for them adjust it.

People aren't using 3rd person to hide the weapon sway, they're using it to show off the character models, animations, and environment, and to give themselves better situational awareness. They were doing this long before weapon sway was introduced.

Challenging yes, authentic no.

Look at St. Jimmy's post: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?182228-Weapon-Inertia-amp-Sway-Feedback-(dev-branch)&p=2806257&viewfull=1#post2806257

The barrel should move, but not the stock as that is fixed against the shoulder.

BI is getting there but they should try to make it more authentic. I'm sure more RL shooters like me find this weapon sway strange. Ok if I fold the stock and only hold the weapon in my hands maybe, but that's not the case with the A3 weapons.

I think we would all like to see the weapon pivoting from the shoulder instead of wherever it's pivoting from now. I'm not sure why it doesn't. I can only imagine that it is some limitation with the way they are using the camera to generate the sight misalignment. If it's not, then I would hope that they would change this ASAP.

Edited October 31, 2014 by roshnak

[machineabuse 11]

I got a little ahead of myself and hit pretty close to the edge of a target.

Only A zone hits count. I shot the same drill with irons and my best time of 20 attempts was 12 seconds (My phone's shot timer app next to speakers). What I learned doing this drill is that yes you can be fast but the feel is still wrong especially when stopping the sights on a target to press the trigger off. My gut instinct is to not pull the trigger until the sights are absolutely aligned, ignoring that I shot faster but the real shooter in me kept telling me I SHOULD be missing.

Again, it's not overly difficult but in some other drills I set up with near and far target transitions I got the feeling that the "bounce" as sway kicks in is animated too slowly. It isn't really clear how as a player I'm supposed to change my movement to get an ideal result but it doesn't seem to be like how I would naturally control stopping on target.

This sounds like a description of learning how to shoot to me. Yeah, the system is kind of gamey, but this is a video game. Unless you hook a rifle up to your computer, you're not going to replicate the experience and skillset of shooting.

Again; ArmA 2 ACE pretty much had standing sway spot on. Day Z standalone does a better job at inertia simulation from the standpoint of physically moving the gun and being able to shoot while turning with the sights aligned correctly. By way of your argument we should be happy with less but again I posit if the system can be improved why not?

FWIW the indie game Insurgency uses a very similar system to simulate inertia, however in their model the limit of movement in the front sight is the boundary of the rear sight aperture. It does seem to feel a fair bit more natural as the stock doesn't appear like it's angling through the player's head when turning to the right. Call it the Gun-Through-Face-Effect.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Machineabuse

[roshnak 41]

Only A zone hits count. I shot the same drill with irons and my best time of 20 attempts was 12 seconds (My phone's shot timer app next to speakers). What I learned doing this drill is that yes you can be fast but the feel is still wrong especially when stopping the sights on a target to press the trigger off. My gut instinct is to not pull the trigger until the sights are absolutely aligned, ignoring that I shot faster but the real shooter in me kept telling me I SHOULD be missing.

Again, it's not overly difficult but in some other drills I set up with near and far target transitions I got the feeling that the "bounce" as sway kicks in is animated too slowly. It isn't really clear how as a player I'm supposed to change my movement to get an ideal result but it doesn't seem to be like how I would naturally control stopping on target.

First of all, I doubt either of us put the practice into this drill in Arma that the guy in the video put into it in real life. Don't you think that if you shot it in Arma as often as would be required to get good at this drill in real life you would be able to bring that time down?

I would also like to note that I tried the same drill without sway (by toggling freelook whle in ironsights), and my results weren't significantly different. Although, to be fair, doing this changes the aiming sensitivity, so that probably threw me a little.

What do you mean by "the 'bounce' as the sway kicks in?" Are you referring to what was happening in St. Jimmy's video?

FWIW the indie game Insurgency uses a very similar system to simulate inertia, however in their model the limit of movement in the front sight is the boundary of the rear sight aperture. It does seem to feel a fair bit more natural as the stock doesn't appear like it's angling through the player's head when turning to the right.

This seems to just prove that the system can work, though, doesn't it?

By the way, the stock isn't moving through the player's head not because of the front sight boundaries, but because the wepaon is pivoting from the shoulder, which is something that I think should be happening in Arma 3 as well.

[machineabuse 11]

First of all, I doubt either of us put the practice into this drill in Arma that the guy in the video put into it in real life. Don't you think that if you shot it in Arma as often as would be required to get good at this drill in real life you would be able to bring that time down?

Well you are talking about Kyle Lamb here. There are skill aspects that are handled by ArmA's simulation that we aren't in control of. Think of it as inhabiting the body of a guy who has already learned to control his body to certain degrees. Sight alignment while turning evidently not one of them ;)

I would also like to note that I tried the same drill without sway (by toggling freelook whle in ironsights), and my results weren't significantly different. Although, to be fair, doing this changes the aiming sensitivity, so that probably threw me a little.

What do you mean by "the 'bounce' as the sway kicks in?" Are you referring to what was happening in St. Jimmy's video

Yeah, that exactly. It seems to behave sort of correct except in slow motion.

This seems to just prove that the system can work, though, doesn't it?

My original position was that the system CAN work it just needs more work done to it to meet the stated goals of the OPREP

By the way, the stock isn't moving through the player's head not because of the front sight boundaries, but because the wepaon is pivoting from the shoulder, which is something that I think should be happening in Arma 3 as well.

You didn't understand my sentence I think. To clarify; The weapon inertia system has the effect of looking like the weapon is going through the player's face because of the camera motion. In reality you face would be in cheekweld to the stock, hence you would never see the side of the weapon opposite your head unless you released the cheekweld to look over the gun.

[Strick 1]

Good points all. I have found a few tricks in to avoid the weapon inertia and sway punishment. First and foremost align your body toward incoming targets. Next raise weapon to engage threat. Double tap "alt" key to go into freelook mode. Next hold breath to get a precise shot. Fire! After target has been eliminated from the field off battle tap "↠turn left" or "→ turn right" to change direction of body to traveling direction. Rinse and repeat! It seems as the though when your weapon is at the high ready position and freelook is engaged the weapon inertia and sway is not factored. Brilliant! Or maybe a bug... Anyways enjoy.

[Variable 322]

I feel that weapon sway is exaggerated and comes into effect too early after walking with the weapon lifted. It almost makes moving with the weapon up useless. Also, I think it should be hardly unnoticeable when prone even when very fatigued. A weapon simply can't dance like that when the elbows are stuck on the ground.

[Sim.M 48]

Sorry I haven't responded to all your demands for more information. Bluntly put; I don't feel the sway improves my gaming experience in any way, shape or form. It makes me feel ill (nausea). I have played the series since OFP, run a server for over 4 years and play nearly every day, but since this 'feature' was put in I find myself becoming very motion sick during games. Do I have to justify that? I should think not. I also feel that since this was a 'feature' I should (and so should every other sever admin) be allowed to turn it OFF.

I'm not going to post videos of my experience, or go over with other folks what they figure is happening - its moot. I want the ability to turn this off - you guys can have it, but to me, it is ruining something that I really enjoy.

BIS - put in a config to let me turn this stupid thing off, please!

[Jona33 51]

Sorry I haven't responded to all your demands for more information. Bluntly put; I don't feel the sway improves my gaming experience in any way, shape or form. It makes me feel ill (nausea). I have played the series since OFP, run a server for over 4 years and play nearly every day, but since this 'feature' was put in I find myself becoming very motion sick during games. Do I have to justify that? I should think not. I also feel that since this was a 'feature' I should (and so should every other sever admin) be allowed to turn it OFF.

I'm not going to post videos of my experience, or go over with other folks what they figure is happening - its moot. I want the ability to turn this off - you guys can have it, but to me, it is ruining something that I really enjoy.

BIS - put in a config to let me turn this stupid thing off, please!

unit enableFatigue False;

[gijoe775 2]

This inertia sucks, Are you guys telling me that a solder can't run a few paces and turn around to shoot at a target with out the weapon swaying two feet to the left and right before you can steady the rifle on your target. the only thing this is doing is making me sick.

Edited November 1, 2014 by GiJoe775