Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[machineabuse 11]

BlackPixxel pretty much summed up the solution I would suggest as well (albiet more clearly than I could have managed :)).

In fairness I still think the "camera trick" method is pretty ingenious in it's efficiency and shouldn't be thrown out the window, it does however need to have the math moved around to provide a more reasonable facsimile of how target acquisition is supposed to work. Animations are expensive in money, time and hardware overhead.

@Chortles: I actually despise turn rate caps myself. that can stay dead. The part of the BI OPREP I didn't agree with was the dismissal of weapon lagging. That seemed a little like trying to sidestep the discussion of what is arguable just as good if not better a system of representing weapon inertia than sight misalignment. I concede however think that execution is more difficult as it can easily give the end user an impression of latency. Which is a thing we most certainly don't need more of :cool:

Right now as it stands the way iron sights squirm around even when slowly and smoothly turning bears no resemblance to reality. The very least that should be done is to make this system work on a curve with a dead zone for the lower mouse velocities so that you can at least track a running man with zero misalignment. There should also be differentiation for weapon inertia between moving and staying still. Also also wik; pistols exhibiting LESS sight misalignment than RIFLES? What planet is this? :D

[chortles 263]

@Chortles: I actually despise turn rate caps myself. that can stay dead. The part of the BI OPREP I didn't agree with was the dismissal of weapon lagging. That seemed a little like trying to sidestep the discussion of what is arguable just as good if not better a system of representing weapon inertia than sight misalignment. I concede however think that execution is more difficult as it can easily give the end user an impression of latency. Which is a thing we most certainly don't need more of :cool:

Someone was probably thinking back "don't scare off people that we won with Arma 3 into thinking that negative mouse acceleration is back*, that's what kept people away from Arma 2!" (Untrue, but look at how often decisions get made on misassumptions. :rolleyes:) I do appreciate that you appreciate the importance of "end user's impression" though, and I do agree re: the value of getting slower/steadier lateral movement right.

* I'm left thinking of the time that a dev in 2012 proudly heralded the removal of negative mouse accleration.

[St. Jimmy 272]

* I'm left thinking of the time that a dev in 2012 proudly heralded the removal of negative mouse accleration.

I was also so against negative mouse acceleration, but I've found that I can't play the game with the acceleration on or the movement feels very unnatural and too quick for my taste :o Though the acceleration also isn't 1:1 movement so that might be why I can't really get used to it. Actually the negative mouse acceleration in Arma 3 is pretty dam good except if you're using aiming deadzone. The sensitivity is then too high for me. Forget this.

Now there's a real reson to use the aiming deadzone because there's no inertia when you're moving your mouse inside the "free zone".

Edited October 20, 2014 by St. Jimmy

[Brisse 78]

What negative mouse accelleration in Arma3? I thought Arma3 was 1:1 linear.

[St. Jimmy 272]

What negative mouse accelleration in Arma3? I thought Arma3 was 1:1 linear.

Oh it seems like it's just my mouse doing tricks when trying to move it too fast. I've always thought it's just negative acceleration but you're right there isn't any. Only positive acceleration is possible. Aiming deadzone inside the deadzone feels so much different that normal mouse movement felt like negative acceleration :D

[Bouben 3]

Now there's a real reson to use the aiming deadzone because there's no inertia when you're moving your mouse inside the "free zone".

I consider this to be an exploit that needs to be fixed.

[andersson 285]

I'm of the opinion that inside the deadzone the weapon should be 1:1 and when you hit the border and the avatar start to turn you should get sightalignment problems. That's the way it was in OFP, armed assault and arma2, and I love it. Aiming deadzone is just moving your arms/upper body (shooting platform) and just like in real life it's very stable and quick. But as soon as you need to start rotating your body using your legs it gets more difficult. Enable deadzone with 100% and look at your avatar from 3D perspective, it makes sense.

So I don't see it as an exploit. Imo it is as it should be.

I have always played with 100% deadzone, since 2001. With it I can properly track targets and I can also move the gun away for a better look at the area. I personally hate the 1:1 normal FPS run and gun without deadzone. I don't mind other players using it and I think it's really good that we can choose whatever we like.

Too bad deadzone doesn't work with trackir in A3 due to a bug that has been there from the very start....

[DancZer 65]

I consider this to be an exploit that needs to be fixed.

I have made a report 2 months ago. :)

I don't know that this is a feature or bug, but turning from hip(optic mode + free look) not apply horizontal sway.

[roshnak 41]

I'm of the opinion that inside the deadzone the weapon should be 1:1 and when you hit the border and the avatar start to turn you should get sightalignment problems. That's the way it was in OFP, armed assault and arma2, and I love it. Aiming deadzone is just moving your arms/upper body (shooting platform) and just like in real life it's very stable and quick. But as soon as you need to start rotating your body using your legs it gets more difficult. Enable deadzone with 100% and look at your avatar from 3D perspective, it makes sense.

So I don't see it as an exploit. Imo it is as it should be.

I have always played with 100% deadzone, since 2001. With it I can properly track targets and I can also move the gun away for a better look at the area. I personally hate the 1:1 normal FPS run and gun without deadzone. I don't mind other players using it and I think it's really good that we can choose whatever we like.

Too bad deadzone doesn't work with trackir in A3 due to a bug that has been there from the very start....

There was no sight misalignment in previous games. In those games, movement beyond the aiming deadzone caused a fairly harsh turn rate limit to kick in. It was awful and was even worse if you weren't using an aiming deadzone, since it was always on.

[andersson 285]

Ok, I see. I never played with less than 100% so never experienced that. + now when I re-read I get the point, no inertia... Yes, an exploit for sure and it should be fixed.

[St. Jimmy 272]

I still think the free-aim without intertia should be more a feature than an exploit or bug. Kind of gives you something to get mastered if you want.

[machineabuse 11]

A schizm between deadzone and non-deadzone users can only be a bad one.

[Bouben 3]

I still think the free-aim without intertia should be more a feature than an exploit or bug. Kind of gives you something to get mastered if you want.

What kind of feature is that? Why should free-aim be freed of laws of physics?

[machineabuse 11]

22-10-2014

No update this day - the Arma 3 development team will be at a shooting range

Please do rapid target to target transitions from standing and prone with iron sights with expert supervision with a variety of weapons. Also if possible moving target drills. And for the love of ArmA take notes on how to improve the sway behavior :)

[trigger_1154 10]

You can visibly see bipods on some rifles, when will they become usable, or when will we get bipod attachments?

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

You can visibly see bipods on some rifles, when will they become usable, or when will we get bipod attachments?

Going to guess and say marksman dlc. But can't remember if I seen a dev. Confirm or even mention this.

[Brisse 78]

Never been confirmed so it's just speculation but I think it's likely to happen in Marksman DLC. What else are they going to do except the two new firearms?

[twisted 128]

Going to guess and say marksman dlc. But can't remember if I seen a dev. Confirm or even mention this.

Bipods and weapon resting are the most requested feature for arma3. The marksman dlc is the perfect chance for them to allocate resources to it and get it done properly. I really hope they do.

And then stop lmgs being used like rifle but allow them to be rested on surfaces for support. Will add so much to the weapon play.

[Sim.M 48]

do tank and vehicle weapons also sway now? Since some of these weapons weigh over a couple of hundred kilograms it makes sense to me that they should have a lot of movement inertia. On the other hand, a 20cm move to the left of the right of my target should not induce a vomit inducing sway for 2-3 seconds. I think BIS is catering to the PvP crowd who wanted something like this in the game. The AI are unaffected by the sway (and fatigue as well) so its just another way of making the simulation more difficult and in my mind, more unrealistic.

With a weapon held properly I can easily switch targets (turning my body) and drop my sights on them in about 1 second with minimal sway - accurate fire out to about 200M. With this 'feature' that is near impossible now. It seems that I'm just holding the weapon on a pivot or something and it must weigh in excess of 20kg due to how hard it is to bring back on target.

If folks want this 'feature' that's great - but BIS please put a module in the editor (or a server config) that will allow us to turn it off.

There are loads of other features that the community has long waited for that should be worked on. This one wasn't one of them.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

do tank and vehicle weapons also sway now? Since some of these weapons weigh over a couple of hundred kilograms it makes sense to me that they should have a lot of movement inertia. On the other hand, a 20cm move to the left of the right of my target should not induce a vomit inducing sway for 2-3 seconds. I think BIS is catering to the PvP crowd who wanted something like this in the game. The AI are unaffected by the sway (and fatigue as well) so its just another way of making the simulation more difficult and in my mind, more unrealistic.

With a weapon held properly I can easily switch targets (turning my body) and drop my sights on them in about 1 second with minimal sway - accurate fire out to about 200M. With this 'feature' that is near impossible now. It seems that I'm just holding the weapon on a pivot or something and it must weigh in excess of 20kg due to how hard it is to bring back on target.

If folks want this 'feature' that's great - but BIS please put a module in the editor (or a server config) that will allow us to turn it off.

There are loads of other features that the community has long waited for that should be worked on. This one wasn't one of them.

I don't think they were catering to any one player type. I play both coop in a clan and PvP wasteland on random servers. I don't lose touch with either style. I believe the intention of the sway and inertia was to make firefights more intense ,Last longer. Feel more authentic. It still needs polishing player side that is for sure.

A big problem is the ai.

The ai already had an advantage of being deadly accurate, seeing through grass bushes etc and a cat like awareness. Now It can run shoot, run stand and shoot without the problem a player now will having doing this.

[roshnak 41]

do tank and vehicle weapons also sway now? Since some of these weapons weigh over a couple of hundred kilograms it makes sense to me that they should have a lot of movement inertia. On the other hand, a 20cm move to the left of the right of my target should not induce a vomit inducing sway for 2-3 seconds. I think BIS is catering to the PvP crowd who wanted something like this in the game. The AI are unaffected by the sway (and fatigue as well) so its just another way of making the simulation more difficult and in my mind, more unrealistic.

With a weapon held properly I can easily switch targets (turning my body) and drop my sights on them in about 1 second with minimal sway - accurate fire out to about 200M. With this 'feature' that is near impossible now. It seems that I'm just holding the weapon on a pivot or something and it must weigh in excess of 20kg due to how hard it is to bring back on target.

If folks want this 'feature' that's great - but BIS please put a module in the editor (or a server config) that will allow us to turn it off.

There are loads of other features that the community has long waited for that should be worked on. This one wasn't one of them.

The fact that you are describing the inertia as vomit inducing makes me think that you might have encountered a bug in the intertia system. Does the inertia in your game look like the following video?

[drill 1]

Tried out the latest stable version in several PvP games and would like to say, that the weapon inertia and sway are done very well now! It's both good for gameplay and visual part of the game - there's now really a feeling that one controls humans, not robots with hardwired weapons.

Maybe there's still some issues (such of aforementioned issue with freeaim), but overall the current implementation of weapon sway and inertia is already very well done and important improvement of Arma 3.

[Sim.M 48]

I use a TrackIR and the sway is pretty exaggerated, and to me; fake and over done. Like I said earlier it's a feature that was unrequested (unlike weapon resting/bipod deployment) and very much unwanted by some of us. BIS should put their efforts into something that doesn't induce nausea in it's players. I turned off blur - now I want to turn off 'intertia', so put it in a config (for servers) or as an option and you guys who like it can have it.

It is not "an important improvement to Arma 3" what kind of statement is that? It's a unrequested modification to the game that is very annoying to many of us.

So this 'freelook bug' is why I suffer so much sway? That's total BS - I bought the TrackIR to increase my situational awareness and increase my immersion - now with this 'feature' I get nausea?

BIS - put in a config change or an option to turn this off please. It is actually negatively affecting my enjoyment of Arma 3 in a very big way.

Edited October 25, 2014 by 7th_Serf

[Strick 1]

This weapon inertia and sway is messing up my game. In the first time in my life I have found aiming with a mouse to be a pain. Why must I be punished for moving body and weapon in a direction of target?

First fatigue and now weapons. The sad thing is everyone is getting on the band wagon for BIS implementing a feature that won't enhance a person's skill. I can see how this inertia and sway might relate to marksmanship but there is nothing in a players array of in game tools that would allow us to benefit from its application. If possible weapon inertia and sway should be directly linked to three factors: weight, stance and movement.

As of right now weight and movement might be the only factors that impact this feature. But its default values (vertical and horizontal) is set to a level that either increases or decreases the obnoxious sway (barf) timing interval. All in all this weapon inertia and sway feature has taken positive control of my weapon system and given another plus for the AI. Why must BIS keep going into the negatives while modders are left finding ways to plus our game?

My only request because its in the game and most likely not going anywhere is put this feature into game play customization for players to set the values by stance, weight and movement and then I can master the art of shooting backwards while cartwheeling down steep hills. Thanks!

[roshnak 41]

I use a TrackIR and the sway is pretty exaggerated, and to me; fake and over done. Like I said earlier it's a feature that was unrequested (unlike weapon resting/bipod deployment) and very much unwanted by some of us. BIS should put their efforts into something that doesn't induce nausea in it's players. I turned off blur - now I want to turn off 'intertia', so put it in a config (for servers) or as an option and you guys who like it can have it.

It is not "an important improvement to Arma 3" what kind of statement is that? It's a unrequested modification to the game that is very annoying to many of us.

So this 'freelook bug' is why I suffer so much sway? That's total BS - I bought the TrackIR to increase my situational awareness and increase my immersion - now with this 'feature' I get nausea?

BIS - put in a config change or an option to turn this off please. It is actually negatively affecting my enjoyment of Arma 3 in a very big way.

I should start off by saying that I think you are misunderstanding what people are talking about with the "freelook bug." The freelook bug has nothing to do with TrackIR or weapon sway. Currently, if you have an aiming deadzone enabled, the weapon has no inertia effects as long as it is moved around within the aiming deadzone.

When I was referring to a bug you may have been experiencing, I was talkin I was under the impression that you were referring to exaggerated weapon inertia, not weapon sway. If you aren't experiencing what is shown in the video from my previous post, you are most likely not suffering from that bug.

On to the next thing:

I don't really understand how the weapon sway is making you feel nauseated. Except in the case of long range and night vision/thermal optics, the sway does not affect the screen at all (which is what I think would be the most likely thing to cause nausea).

Are you saying that the example in the following video makes you feel ill?

I ask because the optic is basically behaving like any other object that moves around in the game world. Is it something about the pattern or timing that is making you feel sick? Do you think that you would experience the same thing if it were a dragonfly or something buzzing around in front of the screen with the same pattern of movement?