Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[chortles 263]

Weapon resting will come (it bloody has to with the Marksman DLC)

At this point I kind of want it to not appear, just for your disappointment.

On-topic: Has anyone tried practicing "snap-shotting" in the sense of only holding breath right before a shot?

[13islucky 10]

At this point I kind of want it to not appear, just for your disappointment.

On-topic: Has anyone tried practicing "snap-shotting" in the sense of only holding breath right before a shot?

Yeap, it's actually pretty practical at short ranges. Inertia makes it a bit of a challenge at long range, so you won't be doing Travis Haley drills at 300m or anything.

[djotacon 190]

"All of these new gameplay mechanics are now forcing players to think on how to approach a situation something that is fantastic."

Fantastic on what? slow movement due fatigue?, exagerated sway?, imposible aiming?

The other benefit is that with the new shooting mechanics the weapons are more grounded in reality. Making a 300m shot is now relatively hard as it should be.

I think this is a popular think right now but... the true aiming is based in the bullet dispersion and fly of the bullet not the actual situation. Right now we have an 60 years soldier with severe alcohol problems. This is not related with simulation is related with the gunplay.

This is not a fantastic simulation, this an aproximation based in "sway", misalingned sights, fatigue etc... and the main character in the game isn't an rookie soldier with no skills to shoot, is a veteran soldier that fight in a war.

I see very much people clap his hands with this changes but right now the aim is gone away. We have an exagerated sway only moving the mouse and with this kind of fatigue with 20m of run your character suffer a severe fatigue.

This is a complete nonsene to me why in a combat (simulator/game ) I cannot make a shot in a straight line.

Edited August 27, 2014 by djotacon

[gibonez 18]

"All of these new gameplay mechanics are now forcing players to think on how to approach a situation something that is fantastic."

Fantastic on what? slow movement due fatigue?, exagerated sway?, imposible aiming?

The other benefit is that with the new shooting mechanics the weapons are more grounded in reality. Making a 300m shot is now relatively hard as it should be.

I think this is a popular think right now but... the true aiming is based in the bullet dispersion and fly of the bullet not the actual situation. Right now we have an 60 years soldier with severe alcohol problems. This is not related with simulation is related with the gunplay.

This is not a fantastic simulation, this an aproximation based in "sway", misalingned sights, fatigue etc... and the main character in the game isn't an rookie soldier with no skills to shoot, is a veteran soldier that fight in a war.

I see very much people clap his hands with this changes but right now the aim is gone away. We have an exagerated sway only moving the mouse and with this kind of fatigue with 20m of run your character suffer a severe fatigue.

This is a complete nonsene to me why in a combat (simulator/game ) I cannot make a shot in a straight line.

It is making them think about their load out.

Worried about fatigue pack light.

As for the shooting mechanics they are fine. Yes the player is a soldier but at the same time he is human, he gets tired from heavy gear and his aim should suffer.

Don't group Arma with arcade shooters like BF or call of duty and then the shooting mechanics will make more sense.

[dsiOne 10]

"All of these new gameplay mechanics are now forcing players to think on how to approach a situation something that is fantastic."

Fantastic on what? slow movement due fatigue?, exagerated sway?, imposible aiming?

The other benefit is that with the new shooting mechanics the weapons are more grounded in reality. Making a 300m shot is now relatively hard as it should be.

I think this is a popular think right now but... the true aiming is based in the bullet dispersion and fly of the bullet not the actual situation. Right now we have an 60 years soldier with severe alcohol problems. This is not related with simulation is related with the gunplay.

This is not a fantastic simulation, this an aproximation based in "sway", misalingned sights, fatigue etc... and the main character in the game isn't an rookie soldier with no skills to shoot, is a veteran soldier that fight in a war.

I see very much people clap his hands with this changes but right now the aim is gone away. We have an exagerated sway only moving the mouse and with this kind of fatigue with 20m of run your character suffer a severe fatigue.

This is a complete nonsene to me why in a combat (simulator/game ) I cannot make a shot in a straight line.

You have to aim now. People who complain about a "60 years soldier with severe alcohol problems" are complaining about no one but themselves.

[miketim 20]

lOl at 60 year soldier with alcohol problems lol nice one

Also yeah, how many times does it have to be said:

It's not meant to simulate the act of how you aim IRL,

It's supposed to make it reslistic in terms of how much attention and motor skill you put into aiming

But yeah I agree, BI is on the right track with this,

Remember that with new stuff someone always complains

But I will say I never liked sideways sway ingame, whatever I use iron sights lol

[roshnak 41]

This is a complete nonsene to me why in a combat (simulator/game ) I cannot make a shot in a straight line.

If you can't shoot straight then you probably need more practice.

Also, your ideas about what factors influence accuracy in real life are very limited. There are many more factors than the two(?) you have listed.

[froggyluv 2136]

Last night I was a sniper trapped in a town with enemy armor so I had to scavenge an AT weapon -result: a slow and methodical approach and extremely satisfying.

The only real issue I see is an over exaggerated, out of control sway which is almost lol funny. I'd prefer a much smaller radius and possible just more 'jumpy' as not to necessarily make it easier.

Overall, big fan of all the new mechanics.

[miketim 20]

I know what you mean froggy, at least it's better than the terrible horrible sideways sway before it's not too bad anymore

[twisted 128]

Complainers should be heard. Noted. Then ignited if they keep on complaining. Making a point is fine, it's a point of view, but that in itself doesn't mean it's right or wrong. But then to have this constant repeating of the same points to batter others through volume is really irritating.

Inertia isn't what I expectted. and might actually be better than I was hoping, maybe not. But I'm willing to wait it out before jumping to conclusions.

The end product I hope to see are features that make weapon handling more authentic, and so far it's doing the job. Reckon bis is going to do a pretty innovative job here and based on that I'm fucking stoked for the marksman dlc.

[chortles 263]

Also why there's such a thing as too much listening/being responsive to feedback... because sometimes the sum total thereof is actually contradictory/mutually exclusive.

[gibonez 18]

The end product I hope to see are features that make weapon handling more authentic, and so far it's doing the job. Reckon bis is going to do a pretty innovative job here and based on that I'm fucking stoked for the marksman dlc.

Same here.

Although I care very little on how the weapons feel I don't care if they feel authentic I just want the end result of how the weapons perform to be authentic.

Meaning I want the sway, stamina, inertia, recoil , and weapon mechanics to result in.

- Not being able to use an assault rifle to hit people at 900m after a 1 mile sprint

- Having LMGs not work well for CQC but work wonders for suppression and holding ground

- Not having sniper rifle players easily hit 1000m every single time.

I want the way people employ the weapons to feel authentic.

I want.

I want all the weapons to perform best at their real life effective ranges.

Assault rifles - 300m-500m

LMGs - 500-800m

Sniper rifles 800-1000m

Pistols - 100m

SMGS -200m

Etc simply don't want the zero sway, laser accurate fire that you used to be capable of before.

[maddogx 13]

Some off-topic posts deleted. Please remember that this thread has a very narrow scope and is specifically about feedback on the current implementations of inertia and weapon sway, e.g. problems, how they can be tweaked etc. Anything not relevant to that will likely be deleted.

I would only like to point out now that I've slightly updated the original post to specify the discussed matter and thus remind some of our community members to stay on topic and refrain from discussing other, albeit important, issues here. Thanks for understanding!

As with fatigue mechanics before, we would like to gladly ask you for a valuable, constructive and civilized feedback upon the features of weapon inertia, sway and breathing. We would like to gladly ask you to refrain from discussing other features like weapon resting / deployment, bi-pods and so on. We clearly recognize them all as an important issues, but such discussions are completely pointless here.

[chortles 263]

Yeap, it's actually pretty practical at short ranges. Inertia makes it a bit of a challenge at long range, so you won't be doing Travis Haley drills at 300m or anything.

I admit that this is what I'm focused on in terms of "does the implementation work"... that, and "does it noticeably hamper long range in an inappropriate way?" (by which I mean "where sway might be more appropriate"), so how are you defining "short ranges"? I imagine longer than 'mere' room-clearing distance... and do you notice an appreciable difference between said room-clearing distance and the outer boundary of what you call "short ranges" with the inertia? (Admittedly my idea to "snap-shot" with right-before-the-shot breath holding was adopted before the fatigue mechanic, much less the sway and inertia.)

P.S. For anyone wondering, it should be noted that the AMRs (M320 LRR and GM6 Lynx) had their weight/mass increased in a previous dev branch build, which presumably further affected their inertia (no idea about any sway difference).

[DancZer 65]

I think lot of players have fear against weapon inertia because of the AI. I'm sure that BIS take care of the AI so ADAPT and WIN.

---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

Question for BIS:

In the upcoming Helicopter DLC is going to be firing from helicopter. Will the helicoper move/sway affect to the weapon inertia?

[djotacon 190]

I give my opinion about the actual state of the Inertia and Sway.

Right now this additions needs a severe tweak because are very exagerated to me and I think that instead improve the realism is damaging the playability of the game. This my opinion not a complain.

I have more than 2000h playing Arma 2 and more than 1100 hours playing Arma 3 developing mods/scripts and missions. I'm not a child using a serious thread to make false complaint because I dont have enougth knowledge about the game core mechanics.

My proposal is very simple use this new and powerful ideas (sway/inertia/fatigue) to increase the realism not to transform a soldier in a slow human tank.

I propose before an idea about using the bootcamp to increase values of the soldier using training (more Streng/endurance/skills) and I think is a good idea to enforce the idea that we have a real soldier but adding this type of parameters is very dificult inside the core mechanics of a game like Arma but is a good start point.

And I dont understand why when another ideas that are diferent are pointed like (complaints, fears, etc..) for members of this community. The devs dont have a cristall ball and they are asking us for a constructive way to improve his development and all ideas are good to help them to make a good work.

Edited August 28, 2014 by djotacon

[Greenfist 1863]

I propose before an idea about using the bootcamp to increase values of the soldier using training (more Streng/endurance/skills) and I think is a good idea to enforce the idea that we have a real soldier but adding this type of parameters is very dificult inside the core mechanics of a game like Arma but is a good start point.

You mean we should open the bootcamp every once in a while and run on a treadmill to keep our avatar fit?

[froggyluv 2136]

You mean we should open the bootcamp every once in a while and run on a treadmill to keep our avatar fit?

Thanks for the morning laugh out my coffee moment

Yeah thats a little extreme, but I actually do like the idea of RPG type stats effecting soldiers in real time.

[Ophichius 10]

So to all those saying they like the sway and inertia changes, I have to ask: Why? Are you actually enjoying the unrealistic wobble and bobble of your sights around the screen, or do you just like the idea of forcing people to slow down and be more methodical?

I've seen a lot of people simply dismissing critics out of hand and fervently defending BIS' 'vision' of what they want with no real justification or rationale behind their responses. Meanwhile a number of the people who have raised complaints have done so citing actual issues where the game now diverges from actual shooting methodology.

Furthermore, those who are defending sway using the pithy statement "Go back to CoD" to dismiss criticism are ignoring that the current sway and inertia mechanics are just as artificial as any mechanic in BF4 or CoD. They bear no relation to actual weapon handling, being arbitrary values picked to enforce a certain play style upon players.

So again I ask, why defend this change? What appeals to you about it?

[vegeta897 13]

I've seen a lot of people simply dismissing critics out of hand and fervently defending BIS' 'vision' of what they want with no real justification or rationale behind their responses.

Most of the justification and rationale is right in the OPREP. In short, it's about diversification of weapons and loadouts. Your choice of weapon and gear have significamt impacts on how you can perform on the battlefield, where before there was no reason to not simply grab the most powerful weapon. This is BIS's goal.

the game now diverges from actual shooting methodology.

By design. A game can never recreate actual shooting methodology, and BIS has decided to not attempt doing so. They said this themselves in the OPREP:

"In short: mouse-controlled weapon movements can never exactly represent the handling of real firearms. Because of this, we decided to avoid blindly adhering to the specific mechanics of physical simulation and, rather, focus more upon the experience of selecting, using and mastering firearms."

Furthermore, those who are defending sway using the pithy statement "Go back to CoD" to dismiss criticism are ignoring that the current sway and inertia mechanics are just as artificial as any mechanic in BF4 or CoD. They bear no relation to actual weapon handling, being arbitrary values picked to enforce a certain play style upon players.

"Go back to CoD" is definitely not something that belongs in this thread or any other, but I don't very much like "it forces a certain play style" either. It diversifies play styles. Without making weapons that handle very differently in real life handle differently in the game, players have no reason to not choose the most powerful and high capacity gun in any situation, CQB or ranged. What good is player choice if there is one choice that is better than all the others? Now a player's choice to use an SMG with holosight in a CQB environment has distinct advantages. Before, a Zafir would be just as easy to use and thus there was not reason not to use it since it has a clear advantage in stopping power and no downside.

Explain this to me: How is BIS enforcing a certain playstyle by giving unique advantages to the weapons that were previously worse in every way compared to the big rifles and LMGs? If anything it's doing the opposite. If you're looking at a Zafir and a Vectyr in an ammo crate and are about to clear some buildings, your choice is obvious if the Zafir has zero disadvantages compared to the Vectyr in terms of being able to whip around and take down targets quickly in a small space. BIS is trying to give more value to choosing the Vectyr in that situation. This enriches the gameplay. You can still choose the Zafir if you just care about stopping power and want to spray like a maniac, and that certainly has its own advantages, but now the Vectyr has advantages too. This is diverse gameplay and it's exactly what Arma is about.

Edited August 28, 2014 by vegeta897

[DancZer 65]

So to all those saying they like the sway and inertia changes, I have to ask: Why?

I like it because i feel that i am holding a weapon. Without it it feels like i am a robocop, superhuman who can hold his weapon straight. Fatigue and Inertia increase the immersion and the feeling that i am standing there and not in front of the PC.

[CaptainObvious 95]

So to all those saying they like the sway and inertia changes, I have to ask: Why? Are you actually enjoying the unrealistic wobble and bobble of your sights around the screen, or do you just like the idea of forcing people to slow down and be more methodical?

I like it when I manage to land the shot right on target when exhausted, or the fact that my play style has kept my fatigue low and I have a clear advantage over the opponent who has just sprinted his ass inside out.

I've seen a lot of people simply dismissing critics out of hand and fervently defending BIS' 'vision' of what they want with no real justification or rationale behind their responses. Meanwhile a number of the people who have raised complaints have done so citing actual issues where the game now diverges from actual shooting methodology.

It's no use trying to replicate real life weapon handling when all we have to control the weapon is a mouse and a keyboard, this new method makes the player think how, and with what weapon he is most likely to get the job done.

Furthermore, those who are defending sway using the pithy statement "Go back to CoD" to dismiss criticism are ignoring that the current sway and inertia mechanics are just as artificial as any mechanic in BF4 or CoD. They bear no relation to actual weapon handling, being arbitrary values picked to enforce a certain play style upon players.

Artificial yes, but much more diverse.

I think the old system without the inertia forced the players even more; take the Zafir or die, there was no point in using an SMG, now there is when the situation demands it.

[-Coulum- 35]

So to all those saying they like the sway and inertia changes, I have to ask: Why? Are you actually enjoying the unrealistic wobble and bobble of your sights around the screen, or do you just like the idea of forcing people to slow down and be more methodical?

Its not "forcing" anyone to do anything. In fact I think BI is trying too avoid, by all means possible, forcing people to do things. That is why they didn't implmented limited turn speeds. All the feature does is encourage you to play a certain way, and reward use of realistic tactics, much like they are rewarded in real life. That's enough for me to like the changes.

I've seen a lot of people simply dismissing critics out of hand and fervently defending BIS' 'vision' of what they want with no real justification or rationale behind their responses.

People got tired of repeating the same thing other and other again to others that, for the most part, refused to try and understand. The OPREP sums up pretty much everything, as vegeta pointes out.

Furthermore, those who are defending sway using the pithy statement "Go back to CoD" to dismiss criticism are ignoring that the current sway and inertia mechanics are just as artificial as any mechanic in BF4 or CoD.

I don't think this has really been said in this thread. The worst that's been said is: try to change up your playstyle and take it slow and cautious instead. Edited August 28, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Ophichius 10]

Most of the justification and rationale is right in the OPREP. In short, it's about diversification of weapons and loadouts. Your choice of weapon and gear have significamt impacts on how you can perform on the battlefield, where before there was no reason to not simply grab the most powerful weapon. This is BIS's goal.

By design. A game can never recreate actual shooting methodology, and BIS has decided to not attempt doing so. They said this themselves in the OPREP:

"In short: mouse-controlled weapon movements can never exactly represent the handling of real firearms. Because of this, we decided to avoid blindly adhering to the specific mechanics of physical simulation and, rather, focus more upon the experience of selecting, using and mastering firearms."

"Go back to CoD" is definitely not something that belongs in this thread or any other, but I don't very much like "it forces a certain play style" either. It diversifies play styles. Without making weapons that handle very differently in real life handle differently in the game, players have no reason to not choose the most powerful and high capacity gun in any situation, CQB or ranged. What good is player choice if there is one choice that is better than all the others? Now a player's choice to use an SMG with holosight in a CQB environment has distinct advantages. Before, a Zafir would be just as easy to use and thus there was not reason not to use it since it has a clear advantage in stopping power and no downside.

Okay, so in a nutshell the answer is that you defend the intentions, not the implementation.

My issue is that the intentions can be achieved while removing a number of the issues with the implementation. I think if I had to focus on a single gripe it would be the weapon model movement. It's not right, it doesn't feel or look right, and it doesn't have to be that way. In reality when a weapon is shouldered, the shoulder acts as the fulcrum of a lever. Your eye is positioned slightly forward of that fulcrum (5-6 inches typically, varies by individual.) with the rear sight positioned 4-6 inches in front of that. In order to get rear sight movement like what is seen in the current model, you would need to have the gun come 30+ degrees out of alignment with the shooter's line of vision, which simply doesn't happen. The eye tracks the sight line, even if the weapon itself swings away from the body line. Furthermore, the current implementation has the front sight remaining relatively static while the rear sight swings about, which is exactly the inverse of what you would see were you actually looking down the sights. The rear sights remain more or less static compared to the shooter's field of view, while the front sights are more prone to drift as they are at the end of a long swing arm.

The way the sights move about in game right now is bizzare, it's as though the weapon is not actually shouldered, but merely being held in front of the body with every effort made to keep the front sight on target regardless of the position of the rear sight. Hence why I said it feels like you're Cpl. Jello Arms.

Ideally, the rear sight should be more steady within the player's FoV, with the front sight drifting around to indicate misalignment. Similarly, recoil mechanics with scopes currently induce unrealistic levels of misalignment between the sights and the center of the FoV (I am aware this may be an issue that will be addressed in the future via scope shadow and other more subtle, accurate mechanics.)

[roshnak 41]

Ideally, the rear sight should be more steady within the player's FoV, with the front sight drifting around to indicate misalignment. Similarly, recoil mechanics with scopes currently induce unrealistic levels of misalignment between the sights and the center of the FoV (I am aware this may be an issue that will be addressed in the future via scope shadow and other more subtle, accurate mechanics.)

It sounds like your problems with the system are purely (well, mostly) cosmetic. While that's perfectly valid, it's hardly the indictment of the core mechanics that you're making it out to be.